The Biden infrastructure plan

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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,320
28,561
136
Quite a lot of them are, yes. I agree it's scary! I don't have a good solution, because it seems like mass human suffering is the likely result any way it goes. If you split the country up the GOP areas are going to notice VERY quickly how much they depended on the federal government and then either they sink into destitution or lash out violently. If you keep the country together those same people work to (and maybe eventually succeed at) installing permanent minority rule.

The real problem is that a good portion of our country has gone insane and there's not really a good answer to that.
The only path forward I see is to severely punish everyone involved in the insurrection attempt, and the criminals in Trump's admin, especially Trump himself and his family, and I do not see that happening before 2022. As ludicrous as it sounds, Americans are just itching to vote against Democrats if they do not make this happen now.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,983
47,915
136
The only path forward I see is to severely punish everyone involved in the insurrection attempt, and the criminals in Trump's admin, especially Trump himself and his family, and I do not see that happening before 2022.

I don't think the average American cares much about this, if anything doing this probably makes some sort of low grade conflict more likely. I still 100% agree it should be done, but I don't think the reason is a public opinion one.

As ludicrous as it sounds, Americans are just itching to vote against Democrats if they do not make this happen now.
I've never seen any evidence for the idea that Americans are itching to vote against Democrats. After all, they get the most votes the large majority of the time! The issue isn't that Americans don't like the Democrats, because they do, the issue is the system is rigged against them.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,320
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136
I don't think the average American cares much about this, if anything doing this probably makes some sort of low grade conflict more likely. I still 100% agree it should be done, but I don't think the reason is a public opinion one.
We got the low-grade conflict on January 6th. We'll have to see how that plays out but punishing only those who participated while letting the powerful people behind it skate isn't going to accomplish enough.


I've never seen any evidence for the idea that Americans are itching to vote against Democrats. After all, they get the most votes the large majority of the time! The issue isn't that Americans don't like the Democrats, because they do, the issue is the system is rigged against them.
I don't know that I'll ever agree here. Very few people like Democrats. They get votes because rational people understand they are way better than the alternative, but so many Americans are super impatient. We know the GOP is blocking progress, but most people will blame Democrats for not getting shit done whether or not it is their fault, because they don't understand anything. For so many, the thought process is as simple as "Democrats have had full control for two years and nothing has changed, might as well try the other guys."
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,983
47,915
136
We got the low-grade conflict on January 6th. We'll have to see how that plays out but punishing only those who participated while letting the powerful people behind it skate isn't going to accomplish enough.

I don't know that I'll ever agree here. Very few people like Democrats. They get votes because rational people understand they are way better than the alternative, but so many Americans are super impatient. We know the GOP is blocking progress, but most people will blame Democrats for not getting shit done whether or not it is their fault, because they don't understand anything. For so many, the thought process is as simple as "Democrats have had full control for two years and nothing has changed, might as well try the other guys."

By that logic Republicans should get the most votes at least around half the time and they don't. They got the most votes for president exactly once in the last 30 years.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,320
28,561
136
By that logic Republicans should get the most votes at least around half the time and they don't. They got the most votes for president exactly once in the last 30 years.
Informed, rational people don't do this, and there are a lot of us for sure, but we are obviously not enough to overcome the system rigged in their favor. What do you think our chances are of fixing the system? I think our chances are very low. Until the system is fixed, Democrats need more than just rational people. They need to appeal to the jackasses in the "middle."
 
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gothuevos

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2010
1,884
1,639
136
Quite a lot of them are, yes. I agree it's scary! I don't have a good solution, because it seems like mass human suffering is the likely result any way it goes. If you split the country up the GOP areas are going to notice VERY quickly how much they depended on the federal government and then either they sink into destitution or lash out violently. If you keep the country together those same people work to (and maybe eventually succeed at) installing permanent minority rule.

The real problem is that a good portion of our country has gone insane and there's not really a good answer to that.

And you accused ME of being a downer, spreading FUD, etc...!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,983
47,915
136
And you accused ME of being a downer, spreading FUD, etc...!
I sure did, haha! I was very confident about the short term results of this most recent election, and I was right, but I have been a long term pessimist about the US for a long time now.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,983
47,915
136
Informed, rational people don't do this, and there are a lot of us for sure, but we are obviously not enough to overcome the system rigged in their favor. What do you think our chances are of fixing the system? I think our chances are very low. Until the system is fixed, Democrats need more than just rational people. They need to appeal to the jackasses in the "middle."
Right though, but that's my point. The rigging is the problem, not this idea that America secretly hates the political party it gives the most votes to almost all the time.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,320
28,561
136
Right though, but that's my point. The rigging is the problem, not this idea that America secretly hates the political party it gives the most votes to almost all the time.
Sure, and you know I know the rigging is the problem but Democrats don't seem capable of fixing it, while the GOP is plenty capable of and successfully making it worse. I don't see Democrats maintaining control in 2022 without at least one huge domestic accomplishment that Americans actually feel before the election.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,983
47,915
136
Sure, and you know I know the rigging is the problem but Democrats don't seem capable of fixing it, while the GOP is plenty capable of and successfully making it worse. I don't see Democrats maintaining control in 2022 without at least one huge domestic accomplishment that Americans actually feel before the election.
I agree with you on that, but I don't think prosecution of Trump will accomplish that. All they can do is keep passing bills that really help people?
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,320
28,561
136
I agree with you on that, but I don't think prosecution of Trump will accomplish that. All they can do is keep passing bills that really help people?
I think prosecution of Trump and criminal GOP politicians will make it vastly harder for them to get votes across the board. Send a message loud and clear that they have crossed the line from politicians to criminals. Give regular Americans lots of ammunition to show GOP supporters that they are supporting demonstrable criminal behavior.
 
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manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,002
2,115
126
Sure, and you know I know the rigging is the problem but Democrats don't seem capable of fixing it, while the GOP is plenty capable of and successfully making it worse. I don't see Democrats maintaining control in 2022 without at least one huge domestic accomplishment that Americans actually feel before the election.
It's not fixable because it's ingrained in the Constitution. Not only does the Senate give the less populous states extra representation, the Electoral College goes even further and uses this unequal representation to pick the highest office in the land. But since the GOP can barely win a rigged game fairly, they go way beyond that with outright voter suppression layered on gerrymandering. And now because a Supreme Court justice was stolen by Moscow Mitch, we're likely to lose the SC for a generation.

The only solution for Democrats is to run up big enough scores that the GOP can't win the presidency anytime soon. I realize California isn't a model for the country, but the GOP is completely irrelevant at the statewide level. Although that doesn't fix the unfairness of the Senate, or undo gerrymandering, or undo voter suppression, POTUS is at least a bulwark against a Republican-controlled Senate. The party of the President likely controls the House, so all the GOP can do then is run obstruction in the Senate.

I suppose you can kind of fix the Electoral College problem if the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact becomes in force. The Supreme Court could return to its previous status quo if two left-of-center justices were added. I don't believe that is under serious consideration with the bare congressional advantage Democrats currently hold.

It's hard to predict the future, but long-term, the GQP brand looks dismal. Recent events have made me less optimistic about the future because not all insurrectionists were old folks. But the writing is kind of on the wall w.r.t demographic changes (see 2020 Census). Georgia will become a lean blue state, and Texas will ultimately do the same. If the GQP doesn't rebrand itself, their pathways to the White House will become extremely limited down the road. The problems for us all is that can still be decades away, and Jan. 6th laid the groundwork for the end of our democratic experiment.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,193
19,662
136
"Splitting up the country" only sounds like a good idea if you believe that states are monoliths of political support.

To split up the country means to throw millions of people under the bus to suffer under the heels of GOP repression; the same applies to the accelerationist bullshit. And both come from a place of extreme privilege.

It's a split by geography based on the state's overall political leaning. Of course there will be many GQP in the Union, and many Democrats left in the Confederacy.

To not split up the country means eventually the entire country of 330 million Americans will all be under fascist GQP rule instead of just say around half of them stuck in a fascist regressive Christian autocracy while the other half live in a standard flawed but sane Western Democracy.
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,542
2,851
136
I seriously don't understand his schtick; vote for the repubs $2T tax break which does nothing for the country and that's fucking a-ok, but $3.5T for actually something tangible is a bridge too far?

Get fucked joe.
 
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uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,542
2,851
136
Well.... democrats had better do something fast because splitting that country up into red and blue just might hand California over to the red side should the re-call succeed next week. If Larry Elder becomes the governor then you can kiss your blue ass goodbye. CA could become red, Trump red, Larry Elder red and you know what that means.... it means that once Larry Elder gets in there he and his republican cohorts will ensure in every way they can that CA will remain red FOREVER MORE.

Sure CA.... its fun to do recalls because people get caught up in political muscle flexing, the power of the people regardless of what that flexing might lead to. Like witnessing 9/11 in person, no one wanted to see those terrorist succeed however it was pretty cool eye candy when those buildings came crashing down. Kinda like Hollywood. Huge aircraft slamming into a building, massive fire and smoke, massive buildings smashing to the ground. The only problem was.... this was for real. Not some Hollywood stunt.

Well.... this re-call is real as well, it's not Hollywood or some board game of chance, and the result for California could be as tragic as was 9/11 should Larry Elder succeed. Good old CA could come crashing down in many ways. And everyone knows once you get an Anti-Vaxxer like Larry Elder in there, there will be death. Lots of death and lots of suffering.
It's a negotiation. I assume he will move up.
I think so too, I just don't get what his fuckinf deal is trying to move it down.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,002
2,115
126
I think so too, I just don't get what his fuckinf deal is trying to move it down.
It's kind of obvious. He's a Democratic Senator of a deeply red state. Since he's a politician, he enjoys wielding so much power as one single legislator, and ultimately getting reelected to continue to wield that power. Arguably, he's the most important Congressman outside of the House Speaker and Senate Majority Leader.

Now if you asked WTF is Sen. Sinema's shtick, nobody really knows, and I feel that includes Sinema herself!

The problem with Manchin supposedly privately saying he wants $1T to $1.5T in the reconciliation bill is that will surely piss off the progressive wing of the House, and force Dems into a dangerous game of chicken with each other. Like I said before, the GQP would like nothing more than to have both bills fail, and prevent a huge win for the Biden administration. Perhaps I was too optimistic when I predicted that Congress will pass a $2.3T reconciliation bill.