The AT World of Warcraft Thread (Where do you play) and general BS

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Damn ret pallies! Ok, maybe I'll level the rogue first because I refuse to heal this time around. I healed pre-xpac and BC I'm not doing it again. 🙂

Well, you could be a ret pally too 😱. No one minded grouping with them or anything to that regard. Heck, whenever someone asked my DK to join a group, I usually asked "what role?" and I expected them to say, "tank?" But I was actually never asked to join a group as a tank 😱. While I'm sure you can find groups as a tank easily, I don't recall any issues looking for one. You can also usually hit up a bunch of instances in a row, as they're so quick that there's no qualms with going from one to another.

What I'm getting at is that now you have a widely accepted 3rd niche for pallies: Ret. Before it was shunned and now it is excepted which means finding a holy pally will probably be even more difficult than before. I haven't done a lot of research on the class though so it could very well be that holy pallies suck.

With that being said, I'm usually the sucker who 'brings in the healer' so with dual speccing it will actually be pretty cool if I can get my second gear set at a bargain DKP price.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Well, my lock hit 70 last night and I immediately told the guild 'Thanks! Now, I'm retired!' and logged in my rogue. I'll eventually level him to 80 but my progression will probably go Rogue/Paladin --> Rogue/Paladin --> Warlock. I just have to decide in the next couple of weeks if I want to level the rogue first or make my journey as a prot paladin.

I love playing the rogue and have since day 1. However, being a tank when this xpac launches will be pure gold when it comes to finding instance groups.

Yeah...I'll also be leveling my Rogue instead of the Lock when the xpac comes out. The Rogue feels like he got a modest buff with the recent changes. Leveling a Pally...currently 19....but going fast.

 

[exdeath]

The whole paladin class is just haphazard ad hoc garbage at this point. How can something be in beta for over a year, be said that paladins are "fine" and "working as intended" only a month ago, and get emergency patched/nerfed more than 3 times in a week?

Holy pallies are severely gimped. Now that priests have smart-targeting CoH and druids got smart targeting Wild Growth (and shamans have always had chain heal), we are the only healers who don't have any kind of server side auto 'smart heal' mechanic. Being in a 25 man with 6-8 healers when you are the only holy paladin, it's impossible to get any effective healing to land. The other healers are spamming their brain heal keys and topping people off in tenths of milliseconds without even thinking about it even when there is only a single target taking damage. They are abusing their smart targeting AoE heals to beat our single target heals to the punch.

It's not because we don't have a AoE heal. It's because SERVER SIDE HEALING >>>> CLIENT SIDE HEALING.

Holy paladins and shamans mana regen were shafted with the down ranking nerfs, while druids and priests are still high from their spirit buffs. On any given trash pull it takes me expending my whole mana bar to equal the effective healing of a CoH priest or WG druid while having three times the overheal, and they will have only used 10% of their mana and are ready for the next pull. Holy paladin mana regen is going to suffer more with the nerfs to ret with judgement of wisdom being cut 50%; in 5-10 mans we have very little time to swing to regen without risking someone getting bursted, it needs to return as much mana as possible in that time. Same goes for judgement of light which looked like it might actually be a viable reactive raid heal this time around; cut 50% because of ret.

We did a back to back MH/BT clear in 3 hours the other night. I had 20 million raw healing. Only 6 million of it was effective and I barely edged out a CoH priest for #1 who had less than HALF the raw healing. I did twice the effort (button pressing and consumable use) to get the same results. The difference is that I had 70%+ overheal because of smart heals sniping my heals within tenths of milliseconds. If we are going to continue being usful, even without an AoE heal, the least we need is some kind of server side auto heal mechanic, for example, a % of the overheal on our primary target is redirected to a secondary target in the raid, automatically picking the lowest person in 20-40 yards. Otherwise our client side healing will be the death of us now that all 3 other classes have brain heals; even if we can't AoE heal , we need some way for our heals to end up in queue on the server to be processed with Circle of Healing, Wild Growth, and Chain Heal.

A VERY GOOD paladin can end up in the top IF they work their ass off and pot like mad. But discounting that, and assuming equal skill and average players, healing right now typically looks like:

effective: (top) priests/druids, shamans, paladins (bottom)
overheal/raw: (top) paladins, shamans, priests/druids (bottom)

Notice that shamans are in the middle of both; the first hit of chain heal is susceptible to same sniping that plagues paladins but they have their 2 (soon to be 3) auto heals branching off that which are based on the FULL HEAL and not effective heal like the paladin abilities.

Which brings another point, to add insult to injury, all our new major abilities like Beacon of Light and Glyph of Holy Light only work on effective healing, only compounding the above issues.

If things continue this way and the healing patterns of sunwell manifest in WotLK, and make it worse by adding more movement, it's a safe bet than most holy paladins will be going ret. It should not take the best player on a holy paladin to barely keep up with average priests/druids/shamans. I've already got my Felspine and 4pc T6 -_-;

 

[Anubis]

exdeath makes good points on holy palys, they are boardering on uselessness now, we either bring 1 or none, it really does not matter, IMO they are only good on fights where there is atupid amounts of raid side damage and the need for a good single tank healer, Twins is the only fight kinda sorta like that now

we have 1 heal the lock tank everyone else on everyone else

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Anubis
exdeath makes good points on holy palys, they are boardering on uselessness now, we either bring 1 or none, it really does not matter, IMO they are only good on fights where there is atupid amounts of raid side damage and the need for a good single tank healer, Twins is the only fight kinda sorta like that now

we have 1 heal the lock tank everyone else on everyone else

Perhaps the idea is that there will be lots of those encounters like that where having a holy pally is a nice asset and we just don't know it yet? That's what the optimistic side of me suggests, but I sympathize with the concern. It makes sense.

 

[Chimley]

We only take one holy pally as well, but that Pally is usually the MT healer while the other classes (Priests/Druids/Shammies) take care of raid duties.

I've been tanking since retail, all the way from MC through SWP, and I still prefer a Holy Pally as my healer over any other class. I don't give a fuck about healing meters, raw healing this, overhealing that. IMO a MT Healer will always be a Holy Pally, regardless of what the other healing classes bring.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Anubis
exdeath makes good points on holy palys, they are boardering on uselessness now, we either bring 1 or none, it really does not matter, IMO they are only good on fights where there is atupid amounts of raid side damage and the need for a good single tank healer, Twins is the only fight kinda sorta like that now

we have 1 heal the lock tank everyone else on everyone else

Perhaps the idea is that there will be lots of those encounters like that where having a holy pally is a nice asset and we just don't know it yet? That's what the optimistic side of me suggests, but I sympathize with the concern. It makes sense.

Word is on the beta in 10 man Naxx and beyond, are that the small spread out constant raid wide damage that favors CoH, Wild Growth, and Chain Heal type heals, have just gotten worse, and now involve movement as well. Meanwhile with the elimination of crushing blows, vastly improved tank mitigation, etc, the massive damage to a single target has gone away.

Yet they insist paladins are fine and that we are still the best single target healer. So what? Read the previous paragraph again.

I played both a Holy Paladin and Resto Shaman on M'uru progression. I was asked to sit my paladin and bring in the shaman to heal my far side humanoid tank so I could chain heal for Entropius. I was able to single target heal my tank just as effectively as with my paladin, and just as easily have 90% mana at the start of P2. I completely *destroyed* WWS in healing done in both phases.

Let me put that into perspective for you. I've played my paladin Holy since level 10 pre TBC. I'd played this sunwell geared level 70 shaman for less than 5 hours.

Therein lies the problem.

A shaman, druid, or priest can cover single target healing just as well as a paladin, they don't have to be the best at it. More often than not they can use their auto-target server side AoE heals to keep tanks up better than we can with our more powerful single target heals.

While paladins can be replaced with other classes, you will NEVER EVER find a situation where a paladin was asked to fill the place of an absent priest, druid, or shaman.

If we were short a paladin on twins, we brought an extra shaman, priest, or druid. If we were short shamans, we called the raid after a few wipes.

Blizzard says they want to aim to homogenize the classes so that kind of stacking and class dependent raid deciding factors don't happen, yet healing is the one exception they make because they don't want to destroy uniqueness.

What they are too stupid to realized is that there won't be any uniqueness anyway because most holy paladins will respec prot/ret or reroll priest/druid. Or quit altogether when trying with all their might and being in GCD 99.99% of time present is an exercise in futility and they end up dead last.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Chimley
We only take one holy pally as well, but that Pally is usually the MT healer while the other classes (Priests/Druids/Shammies) take care of raid duties.

I've been tanking since retail, all the way from MC through SWP, and I still prefer a Holy Pally as my healer over any other class. I don't give a fuck about healing meters, raw healing this, overhealing that. IMO a MT Healer will always be a Holy Pally, regardless of what the other healing classes bring.

Wrong. I sat my paladin and logged onto a shaman and was able to single target heal a MT just as easily and just as mana efficiently as my paladin.

I leveled my paladin from level 1 and have been holy since level 10, prior to the first expansion.

I'd played on the shaman for less than 5 hours...

It's not about meters so much as the realization that as good as I can be on my paladin, I can be 10x better on a shaman/priest/druid at any task my paladin can do, yet there are tasks my paladin simply cannot do.

It's not that we are the best single target healers. That is merely a misconception arising from the fact that ALL WE *CAN* DO is single target heal. We aren't the best, it's just the only thing we can do. The other healers can single target heal just as well, all else held equal (eg: same player). I healed a humanoid MT on M'uru with a shaman. A priest single target healed the MT on sentinels and entropius. A druid healed a MT on void spawns. None of them had problems single target healing.

Now try to run sunwell with 4 holy paladins, 1 holy priest, and 1 resto druid. If you're lucky you'll clear some trash and get Kalecgos down if your paladins are good and all have HealComm. After that, forget it. A priest/druid/shaman can heal a MT, but a paladin cannot heal meteor slash, noxious fumes, gas nova, encapsulate, twins, negative energy, etc, etc, etc, etc. 1 heal per paladin per GCD simply cannot get it done, regardless of player skill. Nothing pisses me off more than spamming heals, blowing all cooldowns, and being what seems to be 100% of my time on GCD, only to see that I did 20 million raw healing and 70%+ of that healing didn't stop a wipe.

That's the big problem I have. Equal players on any class should be able to achieve the same results, if not slightly biased in that classes specialty by a reasonable percentage. I clearly did that when I brought in a shaman instead of my paladin. However, because of balance issues and class mechanics acting as shackles, there are things I cannot do on my paladin. When the game becomes such that those things that my paladin cannot do become the primary focus of future content, my future becomes clear. Given the same player, all classes should be reasonably subbed in for another class in both directions. One way subbing shows balance/mechanics issues.

Addressing what meters show, that primarily being paladin's client side healing being sniped by the other healer's server side healing resulting in the paladin wasting time overhealing 70%+ of the time, merely identifies the cause of the disparity.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: exdeath
If we are going to continue being usful, even without an AoE heal, the least we need is some kind of server side auto heal mechanic, for example, a % of the overheal on our primary target is redirected to a secondary target in the raid, automatically picking the lowest person in 20-40 yards.

I think that's an interesting idea.

Also, your priests have some talents to help their overhealing return mana back to them. Originally, they had to overheal by a certain percent, but now it's any overheal returns mana.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Perhaps the idea is that there will be lots of those encounters like that where having a holy pally is a nice asset and we just don't know it yet? That's what the optimistic side of me suggests, but I sympathize with the concern. It makes sense.

Word is on the beta in 10 man Naxx and beyond, are that the small spread out constant raid wide damage that favors CoH, Wild Growth, and Chain Heal type heals, have just gotten worse, and now involve movement as well. Meanwhile with the elimination of crushing blows, vastly improved tank mitigation, etc, the massive damage to a single target has gone away.

Yet they insist paladins are fine and that we are still the best single target healer. So what? Read the previous paragraph again.

I played both a Holy Paladin and Resto Shaman on M'uru progression. I was asked to sit my paladin and bring in the shaman to heal my far side humanoid tank so I could chain heal for Entropius. I was able to single target heal my tank just as effectively as with my paladin, and just as easily have 90% mana at the start of P2. I completely *destroyed* WWS in healing done in both phases.

Let me put that into perspective for you. I've played my paladin Holy since level 10 pre TBC. I'd played this sunwell geared level 70 shaman for less than 5 hours.

Therein lies the problem.

A shaman, druid, or priest can cover single target healing just as well as a paladin, they don't have to be the best at it. More often than not they can use their auto-target server side AoE heals to keep tanks up better than we can with our more powerful single target heals.

While paladins can be replaced with other classes, you will NEVER EVER find a situation where a paladin was asked to fill the place of an absent priest, druid, or shaman.

If we were short a paladin on twins, we brought an extra shaman, priest, or druid. If we were short shamans, we called the raid after a few wipes.

Blizzard says they want to aim to homogenize the classes so that kind of stacking and class dependent raid deciding factors don't happen, yet healing is the one exception they make because they don't want to destroy uniqueness.

What they are too stupid to realized is that there won't be any uniqueness anyway because most holy paladins will respec prot/ret or reroll priest/druid. Or quit altogether when trying with all their might and being in GCD 99.99% of time present is an exercise in futility and they end up dead last.

Keep in mind that I am not siding with Blizz here. I am a bit undecided because I have not seen it yet myself. I have heard the Naxx stories, but I also know that Naxx is supposed to be easier than Kara was so who knows what the real deal will be like.

I know that my guild will not exclude our usual pally healers regardless, but I also like your idea about the "smart" heal thing when it comes to overheals. I think that would be a good idea to balance it out more.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: exdeath

If we were short a paladin on twins, we brought an extra shaman, priest, or druid. If we were short shamans, we called the raid after a few wipes.

.

there were way to many fights in sunwell where that 1 issue ment you didnt raid
the reason it took us so long to kill KJ was because of lack of shamans, Felmyst with only 1 or 2 mass dispells is another GREAT time

the have seemed to have fixed that however they created other issues

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Perhaps the idea is that there will be lots of those encounters like that where having a holy pally is a nice asset and we just don't know it yet? That's what the optimistic side of me suggests, but I sympathize with the concern. It makes sense.

Word is on the beta in 10 man Naxx and beyond, are that the small spread out constant raid wide damage that favors CoH, Wild Growth, and Chain Heal type heals, have just gotten worse, and now involve movement as well. Meanwhile with the elimination of crushing blows, vastly improved tank mitigation, etc, the massive damage to a single target has gone away.

Yet they insist paladins are fine and that we are still the best single target healer. So what? Read the previous paragraph again.

I played both a Holy Paladin and Resto Shaman on M'uru progression. I was asked to sit my paladin and bring in the shaman to heal my far side humanoid tank so I could chain heal for Entropius. I was able to single target heal my tank just as effectively as with my paladin, and just as easily have 90% mana at the start of P2. I completely *destroyed* WWS in healing done in both phases.

Let me put that into perspective for you. I've played my paladin Holy since level 10 pre TBC. I'd played this sunwell geared level 70 shaman for less than 5 hours.

Therein lies the problem.

A shaman, druid, or priest can cover single target healing just as well as a paladin, they don't have to be the best at it. More often than not they can use their auto-target server side AoE heals to keep tanks up better than we can with our more powerful single target heals.

While paladins can be replaced with other classes, you will NEVER EVER find a situation where a paladin was asked to fill the place of an absent priest, druid, or shaman.

If we were short a paladin on twins, we brought an extra shaman, priest, or druid. If we were short shamans, we called the raid after a few wipes.

Blizzard says they want to aim to homogenize the classes so that kind of stacking and class dependent raid deciding factors don't happen, yet healing is the one exception they make because they don't want to destroy uniqueness.

What they are too stupid to realized is that there won't be any uniqueness anyway because most holy paladins will respec prot/ret or reroll priest/druid. Or quit altogether when trying with all their might and being in GCD 99.99% of time present is an exercise in futility and they end up dead last.

Keep in mind that I am not siding with Blizz here. I am a bit undecided because I have not seen it yet myself. I have heard the Naxx stories, but I also know that Naxx is supposed to be easier than Kara was so who knows what the real deal will be like.

I know that my guild will not exclude our usual pally healers regardless, but I also like your idea about the "smart" heal thing when it comes to overheals. I think that would be a good idea to balance it out more.

10men in Wotlk is pretty fucking easy after having done every raid content available on beta with PUGs that haven't even cleared Kara. Naxx10 felt like a really long Heroic with 5more people in the group (in fact some of the Heroic bosses were harder than those in Naxx10). And to think everyone did this in shit-tastic blue pvp gear gives you some idea of how 10men raids are in Wotlk.

-ps
This could all change by the time Wotlk goes live, but as it stands, it's way easier than you'd think it'll be.

 

[Aikouka]

Well, to add it in there... Blizzard did say that they want to revamp healing. I bet as much as they say Paladins are fine, they realize that there's a glaring issue that's been forming ever since they added in all of the aoe healing. I mean heck, back when I raided, the only AoE heal we had was a priest's prayer of healing... which the only time you used it was during Vaelastrasz, because you had "infinite" mana and it helped since everyone took damage. I remember how us rogues would get a priest in our group for it 😀 (mostly because rogues were never hit with the burning move cause we don't have mana, so we're guaranteed dps for the entire fight).

But yeah, they said they want to really look at healing and I'd be sure that they realize how powerful these AoEs have truly become.

EDIT:

Originally posted by: Anubis
This could all change by the time Wotlk goes live, but as it stands, it's way easier than you'd think it'll be.

I'm pretty sure Blizzard admitted that their early raids were rather easy in comparison. I was tempted to ask them what they'd do when a lot of guilds would beat all the raids in a week or two of everyone hitting 80. So, in other words... all the raiding content has been beaten after two to two and a half months. Those numbers are even conservative as it only took me about a week and a half to go from 70 to 80 on my Death Knight (and I didn't play all the time).

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Keep in mind that I am not siding with Blizz here. I am a bit undecided because I have not seen it yet myself. I have heard the Naxx stories, but I also know that Naxx is supposed to be easier than Kara was so who knows what the real deal will be like.

I know that my guild will not exclude our usual pally healers regardless, but I also like your idea about the "smart" heal thing when it comes to overheals. I think that would be a good idea to balance it out more.

Paladins are very powerful in that they can put out the most raw healing. With single target healing I can easily double if not TRIPLE the raw healing of a shaman or priest, even though they get 3-5 heals per GCD to my 1.

However if 70%+ of that raw healing is overheal because it's being instant sniped in 10ths of milliseconds by chain heal jumps and the new 3.02 CoH, then I am effectively redundant and useless. That means my raid is 24 manning it without me 70% of the time.

Clearly we have the raw healing output even *without* AoE heals. Given that alone, I'd say yes our single target healing is very powerful and that we don't need a AoE heal.

However...

It's the server side smart healing thing that is killing us. Look deeper and you realize it's not the AoE healing in and of itself. If it was just that, good paladins could keep up easily. It's the fact that AoE healing now automatically implies server side instant auto targeted healing. Beacon, Infusion, Judgements of the Pure, and all the haste in the world can't beat a random heal that is automatically queued to the lowest recipient in 0.0001ms on the server itself and guaranteed to be effective heal, long before we even get the health updates. Even combat log based instant health updating cannot help; The chain heal is already in flight to the server before you start your cast or before the future recipient of the chain heal jump even takes damage. And while CoH and Flash of Light are both spamable and limited by 1s GCD, CoH applies at the START of the GCD while flash of light applies at the end. That one second is an eternity, and is costing massive overhealing and frustration.

What compounds it more is that these instant heals like Wild Growth, Chain Heal, and Circle of Healing, cannot be picked up on HealComm/Grid as incoming heals. Before 3.02, I could eye a group getting CoH because I could see a column of 5 people steadily going up 1-2k at a time. I could chose another target knowing that most of my healing on someone in that group would be overheal by the time my cast finished.

I can't even do that anymore. Now CoH is raid wide and random/auto targeting.

 

[Anubis]

COH is so brokenly OP, all our priests admit that, its kinda sad when a badge geard and random non 4 pcs T6 geard priest alt can come in 2nd on healing meters in sunwell over fully T6 geared palys and shamans and druids

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Anubis
COH is so brokenly OP, all our priests admit that, its kinda sad when a badge geard and random non 4 pcs T6 geard priest alt can come in 2nd on healing meters in sunwell over fully T6 geared palys and shamans and druids

Similarly with Wild Growth.

Now don't get me wrong, I've seen really good druids actually earn their top spots with good playing skills even before 3.02 when lifebloom was their main heal.

But now I see druids that hardly ever registered on meters before suddenly one button clicking their way to the top, threatening even seasoned CoH priests, while the paladins and shamans are struggling to leave a mark. Shamans got shafted bad on mana, dare I say much worse than paladins.

>.>

FWIW I have topped Recount/WWS in effective healing on my paladin in MH/BT/SW many times. That's not the point. Top or not, I'm still playing 10 times harder just to be 30% as effective.

 

[Xavier434]

Wild growth really doesn't need to be nerfed. It did before because it was OP but they fixed it. It is a very mana intensive spell to use if you are trying to keep up with priests and shaman so one cannot rely on it for very long and it doesn't heal instantly.

The answer lies with in balancing Paladins and maybe some adjustments to priests or shaman thanks to issues like CoH.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Wild growth really doesn't need to be nerfed. It did before because it was OP but they fixed it. It is a very mana intensive spell to use if you are trying to keep up with priests and shaman so one cannot rely on it for very long and it doesn't heal instantly.

The answer lies with in balancing Paladins and maybe some adjustments to priests or shaman thanks to issues like CoH.

Don't nerf paper. Instead, just buff rock.

I agree though. Most focus on AoE heals causing the big numbers and making paladins look ridiculous. But when you compare raw numbers, it's not the case, paladins are on top by very large margins without AoE heals. We have the healing output, and I'd go out on a limb and say that we don't need a AoE heal.

The other mechanic that is implied with AoE heals is intelligent server side healing. Decouple the two and you can see that it's the smart healing that is killing us, not the AoE healing and GCDs. What we need is a smart heal that involves utilizing our overheal and making it effective heal on the lowest target. Without that, consider yourself lucky to land a heal when you have 3+ healers in a group.

As you said, the issue is fixing paladins to have synergy with the other 3 healers so some of their heals can actually count as effective. I can react to someone taking damage instantly and start casting a 1 second flash of light, and while I wait for it to finish, that person received 3-4 random heals and is topped off before my heal lands.

The healers who caused those 3-4 heals didn't even know that person took damage and weren't even aware they healed it >.>

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Locks are so broken. I'm currently specced 0/21/40...in groups trash dies so fast that instant cast dots mean nothing and it's a crap shoot on whether or not you'll have enough time to get off a SB. Boss fight dps sucks regardless of spec. And then to add insult to injury...I was 2 shot by a ret pally the other day...managed to get a corruption dot on him tho before I died in 2 seconds. It must be fun to have God Mode on your toon.

Has anyone heard if Blizzard is going to do anything to fix our class? Or are we the new red-headed stepchildren of WoW...a dps class with no dps.

currently it looks like we are back to being the "red-headed stepchildren of WoW...a dps class with no dps"

lack back in 1.0 when we were pretty much useless

we arnt even needed for COE anymore like we were in naxx

Are you guys in any way referring to level 80 content? Because right now I think everything is bull$$$$hit... meaning we're just biding our time really doing nothing while Blizz puts stuff out there haphazardly so we don't all cancel till WOTLK (a couple months ago). People are running around low level zones doing achievements by roaming every part of a zone for fucts sake. Thanks Bliz, you are making us feel like the 50c/day is still worthwhile. 😀

I don't know why anyone really puts any thought into what we're able to do at 70 at this point in time.

 

[BassBomb]

vashj down
kael 8%

😱

 

[Soccerman06]

70 minute Sunwell clears are all the rage now... Felmyst down to 5% before he starts mc breathe, Sacrolash down before second conflag, Muru dead before first void sentinal finishes spawning, KJ down in under 5 minutes... LOL this shit is nerfed too much, I understand them wanting to make things easier so people can see content, but this is ridiculous.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Soccerman06
70 minute Sunwell clears are all the rage now... Felmyst down to 5% before he starts mc breathe, Sacrolash down before second conflag, Muru dead before first void sentinal finishes spawning, KJ down in under 5 minutes... LOL this shit is nerfed too much, I understand them wanting to make things easier so people can see content, but this is ridiculous.

yea its insane, we did Muru in under 2 min, literally just zerged it

BT is worse, we had Gorefiend dead before the first ghosts spawned, bloodboil was at 15% before the first bloodboil, supremus - no kite phase, Naj no shield

i think i was at 100% mana the entire time on ROS last night

Illidan dead with no demon phase

 

[Fingolfin269]

Apparently I need to come run these instances with you guys. My guild basically quit raiding a few months ago and I didn't want to go learn new content that was going to be obsolete with a new set of people. But hell, if it's like taking down Hogger now why not?

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Apparently I need to come run these instances with you guys. My guild basically quit raiding a few months ago and I didn't want to go learn new content that was going to be obsolete with a new set of people. But hell, if it's like taking down Hogger now why not?

yea it is basicially like that, the reason we still do it is because we raid 2 days and then f off for the rest of the week, the sunwell epics will also last longer into Wrath then anything else, som till after 80 based on what loot is known now, this depends on class however

we gear out alts or new mains for people that are rerolling, hell people still want to buy T6 parts from us

there was a post on EJ yesterday that said someone led a 1.2 guild 1/2 pug into sunwell and killed muru with the majority of people in kara gear and blues

 

[Tremulant]

I should hit 70 on my new hunter this weekend. It'll be my first. Yay! (Started the char at the end of Sept.)