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The AT World of Warcraft Thread (Where do you play) and general BS
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Fingolfin269
Lifer
Yeah that was pretty ridiculous but could be taken care of with some design tweaks. To be fair, I really don't have much of a problem with attunements that require you going through the previous raid content to complete. Kill X boss to get a quest item that attunes you to the next raid dungeon. What I dislike are attunements such as the Kara one that have you jumping all over the world and going through 5 mans to complete.
I also hate resist fights because they are a lazy way to time/gold sink you, not to mention the extra bag space required, but that's a different topic. 🙂
Fingolfin269
Lifer
I took a break from the game when we were working on the SSC attunement. I remember it was ridiculous but can't recall the specifics. Didn't it have to do with a lot of heroics?
Aikouka
Lifer
Good news for my fellow zombie haters... zombies gone by around 12:00 PM PST
That's Tempest Keep. SSC requires you to go into Slave Pens and get the quest from the naga defector.
http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10901
You need to kill Gruul and Nightbane.
That's Tempest Keep. SSC requires you to go into Slave Pens and get the quest from the naga defector.
http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10901
You need to kill Gruul and Nightbane.
I enjoy simple attunements. I think the Kara attunement is the most difficult I would ever recommend though before it starts to become more annoying than it is fun and even one like that should be quite rare. The SSC attunement was absurd. I hope Blizz never does anything like that again and thankfully they already seem to agree that it was a very bad idea.
Baked
Lifer
I miss playing WoW w/ strangers and making friends. Maybe I'll get WoTLK next year when they roll out a big patch for the fixes in this expansion.
Attunement was never a problem if you can find a good guild w/ skilled people. It gives you an excellent idea of who can play, know their class, and the ability to follow simple instructions. I've been in a couple of very good guilds and an average guild. The skill level between them is really obvious.
I think the reason it's so hard for most people get attuned is they can never get a group of people together with the discipline to complete the task. I mean if they made the game easy, people wouldn't need to be in guilds, they can just pug sunwell.
Attunement was never a problem if you can find a good guild w/ skilled people. It gives you an excellent idea of who can play, know their class, and the ability to follow simple instructions. I've been in a couple of very good guilds and an average guild. The skill level between them is really obvious.
I think the reason it's so hard for most people get attuned is they can never get a group of people together with the discipline to complete the task. I mean if they made the game easy, people wouldn't need to be in guilds, they can just pug sunwell.
Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
Yay!
lupi
Lifer
Retribution nerfs in the latest beta build - Part II
Quote from: Ghostcrawler (Source)I know many of you asked good questions before the posts hit their limit. I am not convinced that my answering many of these questions would calm anyone down, but I'll give it a shot. If not, when the paladin community has gotten it all out of their system, I'll still be here.
Also realize that there are probably a couple hundred questions at this point and I can't answer them all. Here are a few common themes:
I thought we were supposed to be bursty?
Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond.
You reviewed our class last because you don't care.
We overhauled the entire class. We rebuilt the way Seals and Judgements work, and by and large it's a good change. Paladins got a lot of attention for Lich King. your response suggests to me that the correct way to balance the game in the future is to make a class terrible early on and then buff it so that players are happy and excited instead of fuming and disappointed. Trajectory is everything.
I thought you didn't want us to run out of mana.
We didn't want you to run out of mana in three hits, especially in a sustained dps fight. What we don't want is for a paladin to kill someone and move on to the next enemy without losing any mana. I'm a little surprised so many people deny this was going on or that it was a problem.
We think we have your mana in a good place now, but mana is one of those aspects of the game that requires a lot of adjustment and there are many classes right now who would still like us to further review how mana is working for their class. If you're running out of mana too fast, believe me, we'll hear about it and we'll adjust it if we weren't "surgical" enough this time around.
But we don't care about Battlegrounds.
A lot of people do care. And if you don't care about them right now, I'll warrant that's because they don't offer the rewards that Arenas or raiding do. This is something we want to address in the future.
Again, though, we think Ret was out of line in several situations. Other classes are OP in some situations too, and we have either recently nerfed them or are still discussing how we want to address those classes as well.
Look at all the other classes in here laughing at us.
Well, they're jerks. Many of them probably suspect they are OP too and have so far escaped the nerfbat. So far. We want Retribution to be a dangerous class to go up against. We don't want to see BGs with 30 Retadins on one side, which is actually something we were seeing. Yeah, I know it sucks that people say Lolet. It sucks when people say huntards too. That doesn't drive people away from playing either class. We're always going to have some amount of competition in this game, either directly in PvP or the damage race in PvE. If I can read 1200 angry posts from Ret pallies today, you can blow off some inane gloating from warlocks or warriors. We delete the trolling comments when we see them.
Why didn't we compensate Holy and Protection first?
We want Holy to have better dps than it did in BC, but that's a secondary consideration compared to them being good at healing (which we believe they are). We are also still committed to Protection being able to tank anything that a warrior can. Consider that the boss armor changes hurts warrior threat more than it does paladin threat. The net result should hopefully come out equal. So far I'm not aware of a boss fight in the game where a paladin MT struggles. As I said, though, this is something we're working on right now.
Why did I describe our initial attempts to nerf Ret as surgical?
Because that's what we tried to do. In retrospect, we were so worried about nerfing Ret too much that we ended up not fixing the problem. We should have done more sweeping changes initially.
Why did we say Ret was fine for so long?
Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun. We thought and hoped that some well publicized bugs were to blame for the excess damage. As I've said, if I wait to post until we're absolutely 100% certain, you're just not going to get as many posts. Many posters have said they appreciate getting occasional developer communication and insight. But that is going to come with some risk that things are going to change. As I said, I'll caveat it more in the future.
That you're somehow paying to beta test the game.
First, I don't really think we'll ever get game balance to a state where 90% of you would say "Yes, it's perfect! Don't touch a thing!" Second, it's an MMO. Things change. The game evolves. We are always going to be changing things on our end as well. Players would be just as happy as not enough changes as some of you are with too many changes.
You may also have noticed that we nerfed level 70 raiding and that the level 80 raids are pretty easy compared to our past instances. We wanted to make sure we weren't shining too harsh a light on balance differences until everyone had plenty of time to get used to the changes -- more time than even our large beta can offer. Nobody should get parked at the curb in Naxx, and by the time Ulduar and later instances come on line, I predict we will have made many balance changes.
We don't believe you because we've been at the bottom of the barrel before.
There's not much I can do to get you to believe me or not. I try to be honest so my words carry some weight, but I also try to joke around a little so you know I don't take myself too seriously. I don't know how many other ways to say that it sucks that your PvE wasn't competitive in BC or that you weren't a major Arena force. That's not where we wanted you to end up and not where we want you to end up this time. I'm not going to show you my daily tasks or how I spend my time so that you can oversee my progress and make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry. The best thing you can do is point out situations where you're struggling so we can investigate. Most of you haven't even had a chance to test with these changes yet.
You're nerfing paladins because of PvP.
Read my initial post again. Ret PvE dps was also too high.
Our numbers are different from yours.
That's going to happen. We compare data when we can. I think you'd agree that the game balance would be pretty interesting if we automatically made adjustments whenever anyone suggested them.
You said I wouldn't get banned.
You're still going to get banned for explicit language, death threats or the like (thank you very much for those BTW). Try and make your point without resorting to text that will violate the posting regulations. Call me a jerk, if it will make you feel better. It boggles my mind that I actually need to point out that AIDS comments and the like aren't appropriate. If you're smart enough to raid or do Arenas on your character, you're smart enough to know how to make an intelligent post.
Added one more for clarification:
You only tested in Naxx, but paladins do bonus damage against undead.
Yes, we know that. We tested under a lot of different situations with and without undead and with different levels of gear and buffs present. I use Patchwerk as an example a lot because players understand that it is a very simple boss fight in which there is no running around, adds or damage to the raid.
Quote from: Ghostcrawler (Source)I know many of you asked good questions before the posts hit their limit. I am not convinced that my answering many of these questions would calm anyone down, but I'll give it a shot. If not, when the paladin community has gotten it all out of their system, I'll still be here.
Also realize that there are probably a couple hundred questions at this point and I can't answer them all. Here are a few common themes:
I thought we were supposed to be bursty?
Yes, that's the design. It's also a tough design to nail because if you're too bursty the opponent doesn't even get to respond.
You reviewed our class last because you don't care.
We overhauled the entire class. We rebuilt the way Seals and Judgements work, and by and large it's a good change. Paladins got a lot of attention for Lich King. your response suggests to me that the correct way to balance the game in the future is to make a class terrible early on and then buff it so that players are happy and excited instead of fuming and disappointed. Trajectory is everything.
I thought you didn't want us to run out of mana.
We didn't want you to run out of mana in three hits, especially in a sustained dps fight. What we don't want is for a paladin to kill someone and move on to the next enemy without losing any mana. I'm a little surprised so many people deny this was going on or that it was a problem.
We think we have your mana in a good place now, but mana is one of those aspects of the game that requires a lot of adjustment and there are many classes right now who would still like us to further review how mana is working for their class. If you're running out of mana too fast, believe me, we'll hear about it and we'll adjust it if we weren't "surgical" enough this time around.
But we don't care about Battlegrounds.
A lot of people do care. And if you don't care about them right now, I'll warrant that's because they don't offer the rewards that Arenas or raiding do. This is something we want to address in the future.
Again, though, we think Ret was out of line in several situations. Other classes are OP in some situations too, and we have either recently nerfed them or are still discussing how we want to address those classes as well.
Look at all the other classes in here laughing at us.
Well, they're jerks. Many of them probably suspect they are OP too and have so far escaped the nerfbat. So far. We want Retribution to be a dangerous class to go up against. We don't want to see BGs with 30 Retadins on one side, which is actually something we were seeing. Yeah, I know it sucks that people say Lolet. It sucks when people say huntards too. That doesn't drive people away from playing either class. We're always going to have some amount of competition in this game, either directly in PvP or the damage race in PvE. If I can read 1200 angry posts from Ret pallies today, you can blow off some inane gloating from warlocks or warriors. We delete the trolling comments when we see them.
Why didn't we compensate Holy and Protection first?
We want Holy to have better dps than it did in BC, but that's a secondary consideration compared to them being good at healing (which we believe they are). We are also still committed to Protection being able to tank anything that a warrior can. Consider that the boss armor changes hurts warrior threat more than it does paladin threat. The net result should hopefully come out equal. So far I'm not aware of a boss fight in the game where a paladin MT struggles. As I said, though, this is something we're working on right now.
Why did I describe our initial attempts to nerf Ret as surgical?
Because that's what we tried to do. In retrospect, we were so worried about nerfing Ret too much that we ended up not fixing the problem. We should have done more sweeping changes initially.
Why did we say Ret was fine for so long?
Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun. We thought and hoped that some well publicized bugs were to blame for the excess damage. As I've said, if I wait to post until we're absolutely 100% certain, you're just not going to get as many posts. Many posters have said they appreciate getting occasional developer communication and insight. But that is going to come with some risk that things are going to change. As I said, I'll caveat it more in the future.
That you're somehow paying to beta test the game.
First, I don't really think we'll ever get game balance to a state where 90% of you would say "Yes, it's perfect! Don't touch a thing!" Second, it's an MMO. Things change. The game evolves. We are always going to be changing things on our end as well. Players would be just as happy as not enough changes as some of you are with too many changes.
You may also have noticed that we nerfed level 70 raiding and that the level 80 raids are pretty easy compared to our past instances. We wanted to make sure we weren't shining too harsh a light on balance differences until everyone had plenty of time to get used to the changes -- more time than even our large beta can offer. Nobody should get parked at the curb in Naxx, and by the time Ulduar and later instances come on line, I predict we will have made many balance changes.
We don't believe you because we've been at the bottom of the barrel before.
There's not much I can do to get you to believe me or not. I try to be honest so my words carry some weight, but I also try to joke around a little so you know I don't take myself too seriously. I don't know how many other ways to say that it sucks that your PvE wasn't competitive in BC or that you weren't a major Arena force. That's not where we wanted you to end up and not where we want you to end up this time. I'm not going to show you my daily tasks or how I spend my time so that you can oversee my progress and make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry. The best thing you can do is point out situations where you're struggling so we can investigate. Most of you haven't even had a chance to test with these changes yet.
You're nerfing paladins because of PvP.
Read my initial post again. Ret PvE dps was also too high.
Our numbers are different from yours.
That's going to happen. We compare data when we can. I think you'd agree that the game balance would be pretty interesting if we automatically made adjustments whenever anyone suggested them.
You said I wouldn't get banned.
You're still going to get banned for explicit language, death threats or the like (thank you very much for those BTW). Try and make your point without resorting to text that will violate the posting regulations. Call me a jerk, if it will make you feel better. It boggles my mind that I actually need to point out that AIDS comments and the like aren't appropriate. If you're smart enough to raid or do Arenas on your character, you're smart enough to know how to make an intelligent post.
Added one more for clarification:
You only tested in Naxx, but paladins do bonus damage against undead.
Yes, we know that. We tested under a lot of different situations with and without undead and with different levels of gear and buffs present. I use Patchwerk as an example a lot because players understand that it is a very simple boss fight in which there is no running around, adds or damage to the raid.
Fingolfin269
Lifer
Call it what you want man but when I'm ready to go to bed I want to go to bed. I expect to hearth and logout not hearth and become a zombie. I could have bypassed the rested bonus and just /quit but that shouldn't be necessary.
Zombie event is over guys. Back to normal life. =(
PS: God I hope the ret pally nerf patch comes out tomorrow. After testing them on beta servers, I really think they are balanced. Better than pre-WoTLK but also weaker post-3.0. Not fun having a S3/S4 pally drop you in seconds before you can vanish or trinket out of the initial HoJ as a 430 resilience, full S4 rogue.
PS: God I hope the ret pally nerf patch comes out tomorrow. After testing them on beta servers, I really think they are balanced. Better than pre-WoTLK but also weaker post-3.0. Not fun having a S3/S4 pally drop you in seconds before you can vanish or trinket out of the initial HoJ as a 430 resilience, full S4 rogue.
Wow on that pally nerf. I started playing about a month ago and went pally because I wanted the tank/heal/dps option in my first character, and relied on the Blizzard dev's claim that all dps specs (i.e. ret for my pally) will be very close.
My last MMORPG was early EverQuest (from release through PoP) ... Well, people ripped on EQ for the nerfs, but that was nothing compared to what I've seen in just one month as a WoW player. WoW is obviously a major improvement on EQ, but apparently they've taken a massive step backwards in the nerf department. I don't even like checking the fan sites anymore because I don't want to know what's next.
My last MMORPG was early EverQuest (from release through PoP) ... Well, people ripped on EQ for the nerfs, but that was nothing compared to what I've seen in just one month as a WoW player. WoW is obviously a major improvement on EQ, but apparently they've taken a massive step backwards in the nerf department. I don't even like checking the fan sites anymore because I don't want to know what's next.
ModerateRepZero
Golden Member
eh, like I said, it's hard for Blizz to balance, given that there's 9-10 char classes + both pve and pvp playing to consider.
I'm not going to say that this equalization effort is new, but it seems to me that blizzard has put more emphasis on making the dps/tanking classes interchangeable given the recent "standardization" for wotlk tanking, and raid buffs without previous synergies (ie Spriest + warlock).
I'm not going to say that this equalization effort is new, but it seems to me that blizzard has put more emphasis on making the dps/tanking classes interchangeable given the recent "standardization" for wotlk tanking, and raid buffs without previous synergies (ie Spriest + warlock).
Fingolfin269
Lifer
Ret was broken, plain and simple. I don't even call what happened to ret a nerf since pretty much anyone who was experienced in the class knew something was wrong.
The pally is still a good class and ret will probably still be viable. You just won't be able to single handedly own raid bosses anymore.
The pally is still a good class and ret will probably still be viable. You just won't be able to single handedly own raid bosses anymore.
rivan
Diamond Member
Last night was fun and productive for me - I took a look at trying for the new 'welfare epics' from the scourge invasion and scored 3 of the 4 cloth pieces. As a 4-man, we killed probably half a dozen Shadows of Doom, so were swimming in Runes.
Much to my dismay, only the hands and shoulders are sold at the quartermaster - the pants and robe are apparently drop-only. The pants dropped from a named elite with ~15k health; only one of two I saw spawn (the one I killed had a lich-ish model, the other one I saw was an abomination model). None of the Shadows of Doom we killed dropped anything but runes.
One of the shards was exceptionally difficult - somehow multiple Shadows were summoned at the spawn points; there are 4 spawn points/summoners, and I think we had a total of 7 Shadows to deal with, all linked - pull one and we got them all. It ended up taking a joint alliance/horde pull to pull the group apart and start making kills.
Anyway, I'm wearing three fewer greens today! Now, about that terrible belt I have...
Much to my dismay, only the hands and shoulders are sold at the quartermaster - the pants and robe are apparently drop-only. The pants dropped from a named elite with ~15k health; only one of two I saw spawn (the one I killed had a lich-ish model, the other one I saw was an abomination model). None of the Shadows of Doom we killed dropped anything but runes.
One of the shards was exceptionally difficult - somehow multiple Shadows were summoned at the spawn points; there are 4 spawn points/summoners, and I think we had a total of 7 Shadows to deal with, all linked - pull one and we got them all. It ended up taking a joint alliance/horde pull to pull the group apart and start making kills.
Anyway, I'm wearing three fewer greens today! Now, about that terrible belt I have...
Aikouka
Lifer
I did the new temporary boss in Karazhan last night on my Shaman and Warrior... he's pretty easy overall if your group remembers the whole "keep moving" thing. I might see if I can kill the linked person next time :evil:! I also played two Karazhans at once last night... someone was looking for people for the new boss only, so I joined up on my Shaman while I was doing Nightbane on my Warrior. My Warrior ended up dying near the end (whoopsies) while my Shaman finished off Mirkblood.
I have to say, the warrior was boring as hell at first when it came to being Arms. I had two talent points unassigned, so I decided that I'd put one into Bladestorm to see how fun it is... oh my god, that's the most fun I've had in such a long time when it comes to playing my warrior. Unfortunately, it seems a single whirlwind from Bladestorm eats the entire Recklessness proc 🙁. I also went and sent my Warrior the Whirlwind Glyph after that since Bladestorm essentially just casts whirlwind every second for six seconds. I also gave him Glyph of Execute... it's probably not the best, but I don't have any other decent ones. With a quick look, it seems the MS glyph will only be available when WotLK comes out, so I'll have to wait. I'll probably use Whirlwind, MS and Execute... I'm not sure if the Rend one will be that worthwhile, as I have no issues with applying rend. Also, it is still damn nice to have a Shaman in raids with a Warrior!
I made a post on MMO Champion about the Paladin changes and here's what I came up with (note that some of the information on Judgment of Wisdom procs may be off, if you see anything wrong, let me know):
Ooo, maybe I'll try and get those for my warlock for fun 😀. My mage doesn't need them as he's already almost full epics (and pretty much best-in-slot for entering T5). I had issues getting the runes before as people would just take every mob and sharing was definitely not caring. I think what I'll do is bring my paladin, warlock and priest along (triple boxing ftw) and use the paladin to fight the mobs and let my warlock take all the runes. If I encounter and elites that are too tough to handle on those two, I'll simply bring the priest in to heal (but he won't be used unless needed). Oh and it might be hard, because I haven't spec'd my priest yet :laugh:.
I prefer events that I can choose to partake in. Also, I play the game, but also try to take others into account. I get very perturbed when someone acts like a douche bag and only cares about himself. Turning other players into zombies is nothing more than an annoyance. If they wanted to be a zombie, they would have killed a plagued critter or opened a box. Sorry that I'm not a jackass ganker as I refuse to sink to that caveman mentality of "me first."
I have to say, the warrior was boring as hell at first when it came to being Arms. I had two talent points unassigned, so I decided that I'd put one into Bladestorm to see how fun it is... oh my god, that's the most fun I've had in such a long time when it comes to playing my warrior. Unfortunately, it seems a single whirlwind from Bladestorm eats the entire Recklessness proc 🙁. I also went and sent my Warrior the Whirlwind Glyph after that since Bladestorm essentially just casts whirlwind every second for six seconds. I also gave him Glyph of Execute... it's probably not the best, but I don't have any other decent ones. With a quick look, it seems the MS glyph will only be available when WotLK comes out, so I'll have to wait. I'll probably use Whirlwind, MS and Execute... I'm not sure if the Rend one will be that worthwhile, as I have no issues with applying rend. Also, it is still damn nice to have a Shaman in raids with a Warrior!
I made a post on MMO Champion about the Paladin changes and here's what I came up with (note that some of the information on Judgment of Wisdom procs may be off, if you see anything wrong, let me know):
Ooo, maybe I'll try and get those for my warlock for fun 😀. My mage doesn't need them as he's already almost full epics (and pretty much best-in-slot for entering T5). I had issues getting the runes before as people would just take every mob and sharing was definitely not caring. I think what I'll do is bring my paladin, warlock and priest along (triple boxing ftw) and use the paladin to fight the mobs and let my warlock take all the runes. If I encounter and elites that are too tough to handle on those two, I'll simply bring the priest in to heal (but he won't be used unless needed). Oh and it might be hard, because I haven't spec'd my priest yet :laugh:.
I prefer events that I can choose to partake in. Also, I play the game, but also try to take others into account. I get very perturbed when someone acts like a douche bag and only cares about himself. Turning other players into zombies is nothing more than an annoyance. If they wanted to be a zombie, they would have killed a plagued critter or opened a box. Sorry that I'm not a jackass ganker as I refuse to sink to that caveman mentality of "me first."
rivan
Diamond Member
The "ME ME ME" mentality was pretty high around the shards, and unfortunately it's a vicious cycle - everyone assumes everyone else is only watching out for themselves, and then only watches out for themselves.
Only after it was pretty clear (because of the multispawns) noone was going to be able to break the group did any teamwork appear.
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