The AT World of Warcraft Thread (Where do you play) and general BS

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Chimley

Senior member
Jan 28, 2008
383
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so anyhow.. guilds working on killing/or have killed KJ:


Do you bring a prot warrior at all to your attempts/kills?

We're currently working on him. We've had some good nights of attempts. Typically it seems like a healing issue.. people just biting it..Fire Bloom ppl not paying attn yadda yadda.

I'm the prot warrior in question. I was in for our first few nights of attempts, but they decided to squat me, and use a feral bear/prot pally (for adds)/DPS warrior. Kinda funny riding the pine for the last boss in BC. Anyhow.. wanna share ideas and such.. see what others are doing.

Our current raid makup uses 7 healers. We're not sure if this is plausable as healing is REALLY tight.. but we're barely making it to the 55% mark with even that.. so we don't want to add a healer while dropping a DPS.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Hmmm now I need to find a guild to join to do some raiding. I ended up quitting the main guild I was in last night after it simply came down to the fact that I didn't agree with their philosophy on raiding. How ludicrous it is can be shown by a little snippet of dialog from chat last night that sparked me arguing about it again:

66_Druid: When can I go to Kara?
Some_Dood: When you hit 70.

Note that you can take that many ways, but they literally mean when you hit 70. There is absolutely no gear check at all. As much as it isn't srs bsns, I hate the fact that it's a huge slap in the face to the people that put in a lot of effort to gear up in many various ways. Some took my opposition to it as "elitism" and that those people going constitutes "learning." Yeah... okay.

Now I need to find a guild 'cause I wanna do some raiding. Anyone want a mage with ~1000 spell damage, 31% spell crit (and hit capped of course) on Alleria? :p That being one of the characters.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: Chimley
so anyhow.. guilds working on killing/or have killed KJ:


Do you bring a prot warrior at all to your attempts/kills?

We're currently working on him. We've had some good nights of attempts. Typically it seems like a healing issue.. people just biting it..Fire Bloom ppl not paying attn yadda yadda.

I'm the prot warrior in question. I was in for our first few nights of attempts, but they decided to squat me, and use a feral bear/prot pally (for adds)/DPS warrior. Kinda funny riding the pine for the last boss in BC. Anyhow.. wanna share ideas and such.. see what others are doing.

Our current raid makup uses 7 healers. We're not sure if this is plausable as healing is REALLY tight.. but we're barely making it to the 55% mark with even that.. so we don't want to add a healer while dropping a DPS.

Rage runs a prot war, we also do, normally 7 healers 3 Tanks 1 Feral 1 Prot Paly and 1 Prot war, 15 DPS, we just recently broke the 50% mark, collapse is hard for some people
 

nanobreath

Senior member
May 14, 2008
978
0
0
My guild on alleria is currently having to recruit quite a few people to make up for good ole summer/expansion attrition. Though we are currently in MH/BT, offnights always have a kara/za going. I really should say "they" because I havent been a raider since before BC, I just go in to help when I'm needed. I believe mages are a class were still in need of too.

www.worgenz.com if youre at all interested.

Or send a tell to Unrealblade in game, he's been our main recruiting officer. Otherwise Trudif or Sevilen can give ya info.

Edit: This is of course if youre on alliance side, dont' remember which side you play on.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Aikouka
Hmmm now I need to find a guild to join to do some raiding. I ended up quitting the main guild I was in last night after it simply came down to the fact that I didn't agree with their philosophy on raiding. How ludicrous it is can be shown by a little snippet of dialog from chat last night that sparked me arguing about it again:

66_Druid: When can I go to Kara?
Some_Dood: When you hit 70.

Note that you can take that many ways, but they literally mean when you hit 70. There is absolutely no gear check at all. As much as it isn't srs bsns, I hate the fact that it's a huge slap in the face to the people that put in a lot of effort to gear up in many various ways. Some took my opposition to it as "elitism" and that those people going constitutes "learning." Yeah... okay.

Now I need to find a guild 'cause I wanna do some raiding. Anyone want a mage with ~1000 spell damage, 31% spell crit (and hit capped of course) on Alleria? :p That being one of the characters.

Gear checks for Kara these days are pointless. People started running it when it was released with raids that had a mixture of mostly blues and some level 70 greens. They were successful because the people that were raiding were very skillful. The instance is designed for people starting with that kind gear.

These days, a lot of bosses have been nerfed and everyone knows exactly what strat to use. That plus Kara is dropping badges now which equates to ridiculously high level badge gear for that instance.

My guild has never considered gear when it comes to picking who raids and who we recruit even back when we started in MC and we never will. The job of those new people that we invite to our raids is to provide top notch performance and skill. Our job is play our part so that they learn the encounters and they get geared up.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Originally posted by: nanobreath
My guild on alleria is currently having to recruit quite a few people to make up for good ole summer/expansion attrition. Though we are currently in MH/BT, offnights always have a kara/za going. I really should say "they" because I havent been a raider since before BC, I just go in to help when I'm needed. I believe mages are a class were still in need of too.

www.worgenz.com if youre at all interested.

Or send a tell to Unrealblade in game, he's been our main recruiting officer. Otherwise Trudif or Sevilen can give ya info.

Edit: This is of course if youre on alliance side, dont' remember which side you play on.

Oh I do play Alliance on Alleria (Horde and Alliance on Lightning's Blade as well). Oh, you're in Worgenz in the Woods? I've seen you guys around before. I'll have to look into that then. But it's probably good to add that as much as I'd like to raid again, I also enjoy a good social experience... which is why I'll just tend to join a random guild rather than stuff all of my characters into one guild (so when I play two characters at once, there's usually two guild chats going on).

EDIT:

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Gear checks for Kara these days are pointless. People started running it when it was released with raids that had a mixture of mostly blues and some level 70 greens. They were successful because the people that were raiding were very skillful. The instance is designed for people starting with that kind gear.

These days, a lot of bosses have been nerfed and everyone knows exactly what strat to use. That plus Kara is dropping badges now which equates to ridiculously high level badge gear for that instance.

My guild has never considered gear when it comes to picking who raids and who we recruit even back when we started in MC and we never will. The job of those new people that we invite to our raids is to provide top notch performance and skill. Our job is play our part so that they learn the encounters and they get geared up.

The instance is designed to be post-heroic, hence why the item levels are higher. However, as Anubis mentioned a few pages ago, people tend to do Karazhan and then Heroics these days. That's simply because in a 10-man, you can be carried easier than in Heroics.

These people don't just lack gear. They also aren't necessarily very good. Also, I don't know about you, but I don't want a tank that isn't even defense capped (uncrittable) as a healer. It was bad enough during RJ that we had to switch tanks because the Paladin kept getting destroyed by Romulo. I looked at him and he was using the Chained Essence of Eranikus as his tanking item. I just linked Dabiri's and said "Get this."

Also, if you can't even be concerned enough to get keyed for Karazhan or wear gear better than some green boots of +intellect or a 70 dps... two-hander, then yes, I have a problem with it. I spend time being bored to tears in PVP just to provide more DPS on my Shaman (which is a portion of my job), I read up on encounters to learn little nuances about them. I have no problem when people have a couple greens and blues... I don't need to clear it in one night or in a couple of hours. You know, sometimes luck isn't on your side when it comes to drops or simply you can't find any better drops and PVP isn't insta-welfare-epics (takes a little bit of time :p). I don't mind that, but if I really can't help but feel that you're a hindrance more than you are actually helpful, then yes I start to have a problem with it. I've denied going to raids quite a few times because I knew my character was not up to snuff at that point. I've spent quite a bit of gold, time and research getting good gear for my characters. So yes, I get a little perturbed when someone just boards the Kara Gravy Train with their crappy leveling greens. It's a proverbial slap in the face to anyone that puts effort in.

All in all, I refuse to carry dead weight or be dead weight.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
There are some things which are simply a requirement in order for one to successfully complete an encounter. Sometimes, gear is one of those requirements but most of the time that is by far the most flexible aspect. The main exception which you pointed out is that your tanks cannot be critable. Other exceptions include fights like Najentus where everyone in the raid needs to have a minimum amount of hp or Mother where almost the entire raid needs SR gear crafted from BT patterns. Otherwise, everything else comes down to a balanced raid makeup and skill.

Also, a great number of guilds that I knew back when TBC was new brought plenty of people that never touched a heroic to Kara and were successful. During those days, the instance wasn't being farmed by everyone and their uncle. It was considered a challenge yet they were successful anyways. Again, this is due to skill.

Blizz does set up the game so that there is an order to raid and dungeon progression, but that order is largely surrounded by taking into consideration the average raider. If your guild consists of above average raiders then you can easily bend the rules.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Originally posted by: Xavier434
There are some things which are simply a requirement in order for one to successfully complete an encounter. Sometimes, gear is one of those requirements but most of the time that is by far the most flexible aspect. The main exception which you pointed out is that your tanks cannot be critable. Other exceptions include fights like Najentus where everyone in the raid needs to have a minimum amount of hp or Mother where almost the entire raid needs SR gear crafted from BT patterns. Otherwise, everything else comes down to a balanced raid makeup and skill.

The thing about gear and even skill is that in quite a few encounters, one person and specifically, one "job" can make up for others. Such as if you had a very well-geared tank doing Karazhan, your healers could be not as well geared. However, if your tank wasn't as well-geared and actually has kinda poor stats, you may need well-geared healers to be successful.

In a sense, as long as your DPS doesn't strain your healers and doesn't force the boss to enrage, you can skimp on them a bit. But yet again, when I'm saying they'll take anyone, they don't care what slot they are. You can be a healer in greens, dps in greens, tank in greens. Although the fact that someone isn't uncrittable even through quest greens is kind of sad as my Arms Warrior is uncrittable through quest greens/blues and whatever he can craft himself (i.e. I've never really focused on tanking gear).

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Also, a great number of guilds that I knew back when TBC was new brought plenty of people that never touched a heroic to Kara and were successful. During those days, the instance wasn't being farmed by everyone and their uncle. It was considered a challenge yet they were successful anyways. Again, this is due to skill.

I'm also quite sure they weren't wearing mostly quest greens and overall horrible items. I don't really like the idea of singling anyone out, so I won't post an armory link, but I'll give an example of one of our DPS one night. I was on my priest healing I think after they beat Attumen, and I noticed a warrior in the group that I hadn't really ever seen before, so out of curiosity, I inspected him. He was using Dragonbone Greatsword (note, this is a 3.2 speed 70dps green 2H sword quest reward from killing Teribus the Cursed in Terokkar Forest) with various greens and blues (some being dps oriented, some being tanking oriented). So I took a peek at his talents and of course, he was 40 points into Arms.. not ideal but not horrible. I clicked on the Fury tab and was a bit astonished to find 0 points spent in Fury. Turns out he's 40/0/21 a hybrid damage/tanking spec. Although now it seems he got a couple good pieces from Shadow Labs since I last inspected him, which is good, but he still needs work before he'd be a viable addition to the raid.

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Blizz does set up the game so that there is an order to raid and dungeon progression, but that order is largely surrounded by taking into consideration the average raider. If your guild consists of above average raiders then you can easily bend the rules.

Skill can certainly augment off your gear, but I don't think these people are of that level. I guess you could just say that they're more of the casual raiders than typical raiders (even though you describe yourself as a casual raider... I'd say these are the even-more-casual raiders).
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Todays copied notes$ What I find rather interesting is the discussion about availability of tanks and talent trees. It's as if Blizz has finally admitted to what people have been saying for years about the talent trees without actually saying it or doing any changes to existing classes. Instead they create a new class with talents they can perform equally well in multiple roles.





WotLK - A note on the mana cost of new ranks/spells

Quote from: Koraa (Source)We'd like to note that we are currently in the process of revamping the mana cost of new spells, abilities and the new ranks of spells and abilities in the expansion. We are aware players feel the mana cost of certain abilities is too high, and we agree. Though I can't really go into much detail yet as the actual specifics of what's changing is still being debated internally, be rest assured your voice on the issue has been heard and it is one of our top priorities right now.
We've found the feedback from the players in Alpha and Beta to be more constructive and helpful than ever, and we hope that you continue to give feedback on your experiences in the beta. (Source)

WotLK Beta Blue Posts
Quote from Blizzard staff
Naxxramas 40-Man, gone forever? The original iteration of Naxxramas will be gone. The floating citadel has moved to Northrend and its inhabitants await some fresh visitations. (Source)
Death Knights and Recruit-a-friend free levels
Death Knights can be gifted levels as well up to 60, however, they will still need to satisfy all quest objectives in the starting area before moving out into the world. The quests are designed to get Death Knights started from 55-58. This content cannot be skipped.  (Source)

Hunter (WotLK - Skills List / Talent Calc.)
Master's hit % transferred to pet
If we do it for Warlocks (see this post), we'll do it for Hunters too (%hit).
Regarding Resilience on pets, we feel we'd rather give the classes tools to keep their pet alive rather than giving them passive defense (we want you to care about keeping them alive, not ignoring them because you know it's impossible to kill them). If you're talking about a group environment, you can heal your pet and your group can heal your pet. The drawback to players attacking your pet is that they are essentially crowd-controlling themselves. Currently we feel (in PvP) that we've more or less achieved the right amount of survivability for the pet (without giving it Resilience). This of course changes all the time because of gear and scaling. If we feel the pet does not scale in terms of health with the master, we can make changes in that regard.
That said, if we find that pets aren't surviving as well in beta compared to live, then we can explore the possibility of increasing it's base defense. (Source)

Mage (WotLK - Skills List / Talent Calc.)
Changes to Fire Spec in an upcoming build
There are some significant Fire changes coming in an upcoming build, I'll see if I can get the web team to update the calculator.
Fire is intended to do compelling single target damage, as it's traditionally been. When first designing the classes, we always intended the Mage to be the king of AOE and for AOE to be an important part in the game. Living Bomb, and other talents in the tree are intended to bring the Mage back in line with our original vision. Part of what pegged the Mage down a notch was Seed of Corruption, which ended up being better than we anticipated.
That said, again, we do want Fire to be a strong single target DPS spec along with Frost and Arcane. Frost is not intended to be the Mages "PvP spec" and Fire isn't intended to be the "PvE spec," they only turned out that way because of unintended factors. We're trying to make Frost more viable in raiding by allowing you to effectively freeze the target without having to nova it, allowing you to throw in some "shatter combos" in your rotation. Arcane, Frost, and Fire (and a mix thereof) should all more or less be viable in as many aspects of the game as possible. Where they should be different is in playstyle and gameplay differences (stacking Scorch vs. freezing and shatter etc.).
AOE will be more prevalent in encounters in the game, yes. However, Fire mages are assuming they're being converted into a pure AOE spec, which is not the case. We want the strong AOE to just be a feature of the Fire Mage. The Fire Mage doesn't need a new single target DPS nuke or ability as a 51-point talent in order to continue to be a good single target DPS class. (Source)

Death Knight (WotLK - Skills List / Talent Calc.)
Plague Strike clarification
To whichever forum or site was asking about this, Plague Strike *removes* a hot instead of *dispelling* it. In other words, Lifebloom (the whole stack) just goes away and doesn't bloom. (Source)
Scourge Strike
We talked about Scourge Strike refreshing diseases, but it leads to some weird rotations because you have a spare Frost Rune lying around. There is no point doing Icy Touch since the disease is already on, but you don't have an extra Unholy for a second Obliterate because you used the first one on Scourge.
Scourge -> Blood -> Blood -> Obliterate -> Icy Touch?
Unholy has a reasonably interesting rotation with Epidemic, which extends disease length, and Annihilation. First rotation is your standard: Icy Touch -> Scourge -> Blood -> Blood -> Obliterate.
But next round the diseases are still there and you can: Blood -> Blood -> Obliterate -> Obliterate. Even without Annihilation, you can double Death Strike.
Scourge Strike / Plague Strike
The only difference between Plague Strike and Scourge Strike is that the latter hits for Shadow damage, greatly increasing its amount of damage. If you spec Scourge Strike, pull Plague Strike off your bar just like a warrior with Devastate will do to Sunder Armor.
We might still give Scourge Strike some kind of extra debuff, but it really doesn't need it to be a strong return on one talent point.
Heart Strike doesn't need it either, but we got excited about the haste prevention debuff. It was suggested by an encounter designer, precisely because he knew it would work on a lot of bosses. You can pull Blood Strike off your bar if you get Heart Strike.
Frost Strike is something else entirely, and not a complete replacement for Death Coil, since the latter is ranged. Only spec Frost Strike if you don't mind managing an extra ability. (Source)
Talent Coherency and Death Knight tanking
But here's the problem with those existing tanking trees: not many warriors or paladins want to go into those protection trees, so there are a lot of 4-player groups out there wishing they could run an instance but unable to find a tank. And even if there were a lot of prot warriors and paladins, there is a math problem because a 5-player run needs 1 tank but a 25-player run doesn't need 5 tanks. A potential prot warrior might not see the point of taking up the shield knowing that some percentage of prot tanks will have to give up that role in order to get into the raid.
We chose the death knight as the new class partially to address that tanking shortage. We feared that having Frost be a traditional protection tree might flood the realms with even more dps specs looking for groups.
So we thought maybe it's time to try a different approach: Let a tank choose what kind of abilities they want access to, while still giving them access to enough tanking talents to do their job. While every tanking warrior worth her salt has Shield Slam, Imp Shield Block and Last Stand, none of them has Mortal Strike (at least not since MC and BWL), or Imp Execute or Flurry. A death knight can be a tank, yet some death knight tanks will have Howling Blast and some will have Heart Strike. A death knight tank that gets a little bored with his spec can try a completely different one and still tank. A warrior tank trying a different spec gets very limited options, like whether he wants Improved Revenge or how many points to put into Imp Defensive Stance.
The point isn't that ALL death knights will be amazing and effortless tanks regardless of talents, but that there will have some variety in what talents the tanks do pick up. All Frost tanks will get Unbreakable Armor for the armor and parry, but maybe some will take Deathchill and some will take Killing Machine. Maybe that will convince them to tank a little longer. If not, maybe the possibility of spec'ing into Unholy and having to change up their play style will keeping them interested.
Bottom line: maybe the DK style of tanking trees will be more fun and encourage more players to try tanking out.
(I'm excluding druids because they actually do pretty well swapping from tanking to dps with one spec, but then again it is still pretty much one spec.)
Side note: clearly there are some things we can do to make tanking more fun for all classes, and those are discussions we are taking very seriously. (Source)
FPS Issues with Anti-magic zone and new spells
We can fix the fps problem without having to redo the graphic. I suspect the lower detailed versions for a lot of these spells haven't even been done yet. (Source)
Tanking talent changes
Thunderclap and Icy Touch don't stack, at least considering the melee portions. That's part of the raid consolidation pass I have referenced a few times.
If Frigid Dreadplate was changed to something like -AP when you hit a DK, then it could act like Demo Shout. It would work on bosses but wouldn't stack with Demo Shout.
Some other classes might be sad when they find their awesome raid buff no longer stacks with someone else's raid buff. Nobody has played a DK for years at this point so anything that feels like a hit to "you MUST bring a death knight" stings, but probably less than if a shaman or paladin starts hearing it about their class.
Say we gave DKs a talent that allowed Icy Talons to apply to the whole raid, but it didn't stack with WF. The first reaction is typically, well that sucks because EVERY raid brings an Enhancement shaman, and that's true today. But at some point if there are enough classes who offer +haste, then the haste buff is mandatory, but WF is not. What if all the +AP buffs didn't stack? What if all of the +spell damage buffs didn't stack? That's the kind of thing we're looking at. (Source)
Arena Tournament - Taiwan Regional Winners
Quote from: Bornakk (Source)We're glad to announce the winners of the Taiwan regional final of the 2008 World of Warcraft Arena Tournament. These two teams demonstrated their Arena combat expertise this weekend, rising above an elite field of competitors to claim the top spots in the tournament.
1. ????? (warlock, warrior, druid)2. Made In Taiwan (priest, warrior, druid)
Made In Taiwan may be familiar from its strong showing at the Worldwide Invitational 2008 in Paris, and was able to mount a comeback after being down 0-2 to win the first series of the regional finals. ????? however, was able to take control of the final series, winning it 3-0 and walking away with the $15,000 first-place prize.
Each team will also be invited to participate in the global final at BlizzCon for a chance to further showcase their skills, win cash prizes, and compete against the other top regional teams. For more information about the tournament, please see our Arena tournament information page. Congratulations to all the winners!

 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Basically what I am trying to tell you is that the only thing gear does in the majority of cases is give raiders a little extra edge when tackling an encounter. The amount of edge that it provides is on a case by case and role by role basis, but most of the time it isn't much unless the person's gear is just god awful beyond reason.

For example, bringing a healer that has 1600 healing over a healer with 2100 healing seems like a dumb idea if the encounter is challenging enough already for healers. However, bringing a healer with 2100 healing that takes an extra second or two on average per spell cast to press their buttons over a healer with 1600 healing who is spot on when it comes to reaction time is absolutely ludicrous and the raid's success rate will reflect that sort of thing tremendously.

That's just one of many examples.
 

Mana

Member
Jul 3, 2007
109
0
0
Gear matters quite a bit. Gear tells you if a person knows their class or if they don't. For example, I've had mages apply to my raiding guild that have gemmed only +Spell Crit/+Spell Damage gems, and I will specifically point that out and ask them why they have done that. People can argue all they want, but if you want to raid well, you have to min/max, and to min/max you need to know your class and what gear is best for you.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
Originally posted by: Chimley
so anyhow.. guilds working on killing/or have killed KJ:


Do you bring a prot warrior at all to your attempts/kills?

We're currently working on him. We've had some good nights of attempts. Typically it seems like a healing issue.. people just biting it..Fire Bloom ppl not paying attn yadda yadda.

I'm the prot warrior in question. I was in for our first few nights of attempts, but they decided to squat me, and use a feral bear/prot pally (for adds)/DPS warrior. Kinda funny riding the pine for the last boss in BC. Anyhow.. wanna share ideas and such.. see what others are doing.

Our current raid makup uses 7 healers. We're not sure if this is plausable as healing is REALLY tight.. but we're barely making it to the 55% mark with even that.. so we don't want to add a healer while dropping a DPS.

Might as well start leveling your prot paladin again, your being replaced in WOTLK anyway! Buahah!
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
My thoughts can be summed up with: put a little fucking effort into it and stop being a damn leech.

It especially bothers me when myself and a couple others put a decent amount of effort into our gear and these people don't seem to give a damn. It's a slap in the face. I don't expect a whole lot... I don't care if you don't have a ton of consumables... don't expect flasks (flasks for kara is overkill :p), etc, but for the love of god, at least try... at least show some effort.

EDIT:

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Might as well start leveling your prot paladin again, your being replaced in WOTLK anyway! Buahah!

Good thing mine's about to hit 70 :D. Actually working on getting the EotS tokens to get the S2 mace since it's quite good for tanking (with a nice +40 spell damage on it).

Originally posted by: Mana
Gear matters quite a bit. Gear tells you if a person knows their class or if they don't. For example, I've had mages apply to my raiding guild that have gemmed only +Spell Crit/+Spell Damage gems, and I will specifically point that out and ask them why they have done that. People can argue all they want, but if you want to raid well, you have to min/max, and to min/max you need to know your class and what gear is best for you.

I ran into people that didn't know their classes well way too often. It's almost inexcusable now with all the information available and especially since on the guild's forums they even link to things like EJ... yet I don't think many even read it.

Here's my mage (linked this too often I think haha):
http://www.wowarmory.com/chara...xml?r=Alleria&n=Cureli

My things to work on with him are replacing them blues (neck off Prince, ring off Chess, boots off Maiden (gem with 2x runed living ruby for 18 spell damage) and wand off Aran... or possibly badge boots and then wand off mag or heroic UB) and respec to get Icy Veins if I actually raid consistently rather than just in PUGs. I still do ample DPS without it.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Mana
Gear matters quite a bit. Gear tells you if a person knows their class or if they don't. For example, I've had mages apply to my raiding guild that have gemmed only +Spell Crit/+Spell Damage gems, and I will specifically point that out and ask them why they have done that. People can argue all they want, but if you want to raid well, you have to min/max, and to min/max you need to know your class and what gear is best for you.

Gear can potentially provide evidence about a certain player, but it by no means provides any sort of proof. This is especially true when it comes to players which seem to have decent gear for their class and spec which can be very deceiving. Proof is obtained by playing with the player.

You are correct that in order to be successful at raiding then you need to know your class which means you need to understand what gear to use or at least be quick to learn such things. Knowing your class directly goes hand in hand with skill. Gearing under geared players is really easy to do though. Turning a player who is not very skillful and doesn't have much potential to improve into becoming a star player is damn near impossible. That is what separates the men from the boys. That is what a guild should be looking for. The gear that a new raider comes equipped with is nothing more than the bells and whistles in most cases.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
Originally posted by: Aikouka
My thoughts can be summed up with: put a little fucking effort into it and stop being a damn leech.

It especially bothers me when myself and a couple others put a decent amount of effort into our gear and these people don't seem to give a damn. It's a slap in the face. I don't expect a whole lot... I don't care if you don't have a ton of consumables... don't expect flasks (flasks for kara is overkill :p), etc, but for the love of god, at least try... at least show some effort.

EDIT:

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Might as well start leveling your prot paladin again, your being replaced in WOTLK anyway! Buahah!

Good thing mine's about to hit 70 :D. Actually working on getting the EotS tokens to get the S2 mace since it's quite good for tanking (with a nice +40 spell damage on it).

Originally posted by: Mana
Gear matters quite a bit. Gear tells you if a person knows their class or if they don't. For example, I've had mages apply to my raiding guild that have gemmed only +Spell Crit/+Spell Damage gems, and I will specifically point that out and ask them why they have done that. People can argue all they want, but if you want to raid well, you have to min/max, and to min/max you need to know your class and what gear is best for you.

I ran into people that didn't know their classes well way too often. It's almost inexcusable now with all the information available and especially since on the guild's forums they even link to things like EJ... yet I don't think many even read it.

Here's my mage (linked this too often I think haha):
http://www.wowarmory.com/chara...xml?r=Alleria&n=Cureli

My things to work on with him are replacing them blues (neck off Prince, ring off Chess, boots off Maiden (gem with 2x runed living ruby for 18 spell damage) and wand off Aran... or possibly badge boots and then wand off mag or heroic UB) and respec to get Icy Veins if I actually raid consistently rather than just in PUGs. I still do ample DPS without it.

For WOTLK you may want to consider grabbing a high DPS single handed weapon, as they are changing paladins to be less dependent on spell damage. Most of our abilities scale with AP now.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Mana
Gear matters quite a bit. Gear tells you if a person knows their class or if they don't. For example, I've had mages apply to my raiding guild that have gemmed only +Spell Crit/+Spell Damage gems, and I will specifically point that out and ask them why they have done that. People can argue all they want, but if you want to raid well, you have to min/max, and to min/max you need to know your class and what gear is best for you.

Gear can potentially provide evidence about a certain player, but it by no means provides any sort of proof. This is especially true when it comes to players which seem to have decent gear for their class and spec which can be very deceiving. Proof is obtained by playing with the player.

You are correct that in order to be successful at raiding then you need to know your class which means you need to understand what gear to use or at least be quick to learn such things. Knowing your class directly goes hand in hand with skill. Gearing under geared players is really easy to do though. Turning a player who is not very skillful and doesn't have much potential to improve into becoming a star player is damn near impossible. That is what separates the men from the boys. That is what a guild should be looking for. The gear that a new raider comes equipped with is nothing more than the bells and whistles in most cases.

Maybe if you aren't a tank. If you are tanking, your gear almost certainly means something. Raids can carry DPS and healers to a degree, they can't really carry a shitty tank.
 

Chimley

Senior member
Jan 28, 2008
383
0
0
See.. this is a problem with the "typical" WoW player. Believe it or not, most WoW players are not like us. They don't theorycraft their classes, find Best-in-slot items, plot out their gear/enchants/gems as goals etc. They don't read up on boss strats, forums like EJ, or whatnot.

They play for the hell of it. Until they WANT to step up to that "next" level of commitment to the game, they'll always be undergeared tards who most of the time couldn't play their way outta MC if it was thrown at them.

The issue is compounded by the fact that Kara is the most popular "Raid Zone", easily accessable and puggable (especially since you don't need the key anymore). These players hit 70, and they become another "body" to fill a spot. Instead of going through the gear path that most of us did (5-Mans/Heroics/Kara/Grull/Mag/Badge/SSC-TK/etc) they jump right to Kara.

Hell most of these guys have NO CLUE on how to play in a group, how to spec for success in a PvE environment. I can't tell you how many times I've run into players who just had NO CLUE what they were doing. The "solo grind" from 1-70 does not teach players how to successfully work as a team to overcome challenges. I don't fault them for it. I was a tard n00b warrior for most of MC... it was only when I finally stepped up myself to LEARN about my class, what the raid needs, how to work as a good teammate, did I finally find more enjoyment and success in this game.

Funny story.. I was going to Mana Tombs on my alt mage a year ago or so. We got in, and the warrior tank said in party

Him "I'm hearthing to IF. Can you summon me back?"
Us "Uh why?"
Him "I need to go buy a shield"
You have left the party

Being a warrior.. ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS PUNCH THIS DUDE THROUGH THE INTERNET. But yeah.. he just did not know any better.


Carmen, wanna sell me your prot pally :(
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: Chimley
Him "I'm hearthing to IF. Can you summon me back?"
Us "Uh why?"
Him "I need to go buy a shield"
You have left the party

Being a warrior.. ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS PUNCH THIS DUDE THROUGH THE INTERNET. But yeah.. he just did not know any better.


Carmen, wanna sell me your prot pally :(



fucking LOL

what is it always toumbs

i got invited to a group yesterday for toumbs that was 3 hunters (2 lvl 65s) and a healer who were planning on having pets tank
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Carmen813
Maybe if you aren't a tank. If you are tanking, your gear almost certainly means something. Raids can carry DPS and healers to a degree, they can't really carry a shitty tank.

The role of the tank needs to place more emphasis on gear than any other role. I addressed this in an earlier post. Even with that being true, it is far easier to gear up a tank than it is to teach a tank how to be a tank.

Chimley, you are pretty much spot on too. A lot of players know the basics, but lack that kind of understanding. Some of them are very fast learners though and desire to up their commitment to the game a little bit. Recruits like that have approached my guild in the past. Some made it. Some didn't.

In the end, all that really needs to be done to find out what you really need to know is to perform a trial recruitment period with every recruit. My guild requires a minimum of 30 days before we give them the boot. We also extend the 30 day period for various reasons depending on the case. This gives us all an adequate amount of time to find out whether or not the recruit fits in well with us. As long as there is time, communication, and participation happening during this period then we are able to figure that out.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Since the WoW census page is not all that accurate, is a good measure of the server's population (since Blizzard's generic Low, Medium, High leaves a little to be desired) to check to see how much activity there is in the LFG channel or has that channel been abandoned in favor of the built in LFG system that seems to have been put in?
 

BassBomb

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2005
8,390
1
81
So I bought

S2 shoulders got them enchanted + gemmed
S4 gloves got them enchanted

I have not arena'd yet and I have only been doing battlegrounds. I am working on the Guardian belt since I still have Veteran's

My PVE set I get 250 hit
Belt of Deep Shadow
Fel Leather Set
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Originally posted by: Carmen813
For WOTLK you may want to consider grabbing a high DPS single handed weapon, as they are changing paladins to be less dependent on spell damage. Most of our abilities scale with AP now.

That's true... I remember seeing a couple skills that mentioned scaling with attack power, but didn't put much thought into it yet. He's only 68 right now, so chances are I might not even do much with him except the things necessary for WotLK (epic flying, all skills to 375, etc).

Originally posted by: Chimley
See.. this is a problem with the "typical" WoW player. Believe it or not, most WoW players are not like us. They don't theorycraft their classes, find Best-in-slot items, plot out their gear/enchants/gems as goals etc. They don't read up on boss strats, forums like EJ, or whatnot.

They play for the hell of it. Until they WANT to step up to that "next" level of commitment to the game, they'll always be undergeared tards who most of the time couldn't play their way outta MC if it was thrown at them.

That's true and it can be quite problematic when we "mix." You get expectances to be up to a certain level. Personally, I don't expect excellent players, but my bar is definitely higher than what I was seeing.

Originally posted by: Chimley
Funny story.. I was going to Mana Tombs on my alt mage a year ago or so. We got in, and the warrior tank said in party

Him "I'm hearthing to IF. Can you summon me back?"
Us "Uh why?"
Him "I need to go buy a shield"
You have left the party

Well, you at least have to give the guy some credit... he knows he needs a shield :laugh:. I was in a ramps group... on my warlock I think and I asked the tank before we started, "do you have a sword and a shield?" He says he does. We get in and he starts "tanking" with a two-hander :confused:. That group didn't last long.

Originally posted by: Chimley
I can't tell you how many times I've run into players who just had NO CLUE what they were doing. The "solo grind" from 1-70 does not teach players how to successfully work as a team to overcome challenges. I don't fault them for it. I was a tard n00b warrior for most of MC... it was only when I finally stepped up myself to LEARN about my class, what the raid needs, how to work as a good teammate, did I finally find more enjoyment and success in this game.

That's one of the reasons why I don't like the fact that you can solo to 70. It just creates poor players and poor attitudes. The name "huntard" didn't come from nowhere :p. Although, I know what you mean about being bad in the early days, but you have to admit... there was a lot less about the game available in those days. When I leveled my first character to 60 in 2004 through Jan 2005, the game was harder not to mention we don't have add-ons to tell us where to go for every quest. You wouldn't believe how many people in that guild complained when QuestHelper was broken :confused:.

But I do remember how bad I was in the beginning. I think it didn't help that WoW was essentially the first "real" RPG that I played extensively. Playing Final Fantasy does not ready you for a game with extensive stats like WoW... I would've been much better off if I played a lot of Elder Scrolls. I remember in the early days when I used to use a dagger on my rogue... and I was combat and would sinister strike with it. I feel ashamed even remembering those days :(. I also remember the times when I passed over +hit (which wasn't horribly available as it is now anyway).

EDIT:

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Since the WoW census page is not all that accurate, is a good measure of the server's population (since Blizzard's generic Low, Medium, High leaves a little to be desired) to check to see how much activity there is in the LFG channel or has that channel been abandoned in favor of the built in LFG system that seems to have been put in?

People still advertise in the LFG channel, but you have to sign up for something on the tool to even enter said channel.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Carmen813
Maybe if you aren't a tank. If you are tanking, your gear almost certainly means something. Raids can carry DPS and healers to a degree, they can't really carry a shitty tank.

The role of the tank needs to place more emphasis on gear than any other role. I addressed this in an earlier post. Even with that being true, it is far easier to gear up a tank than it is to teach a tank how to be a tank.

Chimley, you are pretty much spot on too. A lot of players know the basics, but lack that kind of understanding. Some of them are very fast learners though and desire to up their commitment to the game a little bit. Recruits like that have approached my guild in the past. Some made it. Some didn't.

In the end, all that really needs to be done to find out what you really need to know is to perform a trial recruitment period with every recruit. My guild requires a minimum of 30 days before we give them the boot. We also extend the 30 day period for various reasons depending on the case. This gives us all an adequate amount of time to find out whether or not the recruit fits in well with us. As long as there is time, communication, and participation happening during this period then we are able to figure that out.

Eh, it depends on the tank class. Gearing up a Prot Paladin for uncrushable is actually fairly difficult and requires running lots of heroics/5 mans before you get there. It's easier for warrior tanks due to the mechanics of shield block and doesn't really matter for druids, who can tank in their pvp gear and do fine.

That said I've run into plenty of tanks, especially Paladins, who just don't know what they are doing. Biggest problem I ran into for most of BC was getting raids to actually *let* me tank as a Paladin, I'm lucky that I found a guild that (after numerous bashings over the head) allowed me to stick around.

My wife is a good example of a casual player. She leveled a Paladin to 70 as Prot, and she enjoys the class because she can solo quest and basically not die, ever. She isn't to skilled at tanking 5 mans or raids though because she simply has never had to do it. So long as she is having fun though it doesn't really matter, does it?
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Since the WoW census page is not all that accurate, is a good measure of the server's population (since Blizzard's generic Low, Medium, High leaves a little to be desired) to check to see how much activity there is in the LFG channel or has that channel been abandoned in favor of the built in LFG system that seems to have been put in?

the system was also abandoned by players LOL

the census or the one on warcraftrealms isnt totally accurate but its pretty close/gives you a good idea


if you are gonna roll a new toon i would roll on a Med-high pop server because low pop servers suck
 

BassBomb

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2005
8,390
1
81
Oh also I forgot to add...

I got "Challenger" title. Odd though considering I only arena'd about 3-4 weeks in S3 (twice when S3 started, and twice in May)
 
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