So I hear Mage armors/Fel Armor are not going to be purgable/dispelable in an upcoming patch? Druid/Lock in 2s is going to be essentially impossible to kill for certain combos (ie Priest/Rogue). eek.
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thats not true, making fel armor non dispellable will not save a Lock from a rogue/whatever team
In the long run it indeed may not, but it's going to increase the length of a game substantially. Does my priest/rogue team still beat druid/lock or pally/lock if, for some reason fel armor cannot be dispelled, yes. But it's going to be much harder to beat a GOOD druid/lock team if you can't get rid of Fel Armor. I don't see how that's even up for debate - 30%+ healing is 30% and with lifebloom that's a PITA no matter how you look at it. Good druid + sl/sl locks are going to be a much more difficult kill.
Maybe a free HK to undead rogues with their trinket, but you shouldn't have a problem against non-undead rogues. Besides, I hate it when people complain about this class vs that class, etc. Some classes (see: cloth wearers) SHOULD get owned by rogues.
Fingolfin269
Lifer
- Feb 28, 2003
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Originally posted by: Aikouka
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
This is why WoW PVP sucks.
Oh how I long for the old days of TM vs. SS.
You enjoyed fighting swarms of level 55 guards that much? :Q Or the immense lag that ensued whenever people clashed on the field in between.
Sure, it was more for fun. I never had any lag issues so I'm not sure where you're going with that but hey, it was a blast making a push one way and then seeing them mass up and push back towards TM. Now the only time you see anyone do world PvP it's a bored high level character who just wants to gank noobs. BGs killed PvP imho basically making it counter strike in WoW with a raid component (farm those honor points for gear!!!).
To each his own.
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Sure, it was more for fun. I never had any lag issues so I'm not sure where you're going with that but hey, it was a blast making a push one way and then seeing them mass up and push back towards TM. Now the only time you see anyone do world PvP it's a bored high level character who just wants to gank noobs. BGs killed PvP imho basically making it counter strike in WoW with a raid component (farm those honor points for gear!!!).
To each his own.
It's pretty hard to kill PvP when it barely existed in the first place. There is a lot to say about both the pros and cons when it comes to BGs, but one thing is for certain. After they showed up, we saw a whole lot more PvP happening. Now, whether or not you enjoy what that PvP has to offer is something entirely different.
rh71
No Lifer
- Aug 28, 2001
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I am finally learning to PVP as a rogue the right way... against clothies - garrote-silence mixed with the usual cripple & stuns as sub spec and they can barely do anything, much less hit their oh-shit button. It's way too easy as a rogue if you do things right. As a combat rogue I went in there gung-ho going toe-to-toe and half the time they would get away/kite me to no end.
BTW, does garrote-silence keep mages from blinking? I still think it's crap they can blink out of cheapshot.... philosophically-speaking.
It's supposed to be easy against clothies if you stealth up to them. It's not different than if you're out in the open, unstealthed, and a mage gets a jump on you - he'll smoke you.
Yes, garrote silence does stop blink, but it leaves them free to blink out of your kidney shot, so cheap shot isn't necessarily useless if you use it to force the blink.
i.e. you CS a mage, he frost novas, blinks, and winds up the shatter combo, you shadowstep and kidney shot to interrupt. Now you've interrupted his shatter combo and he's stunned right next to you and you didnt even have to use cloak of shadows.
lupi
Lifer
- Apr 8, 2001
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- 260
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Hadn't been doing the isle dailies for awhile as I worked on netherwing, but I have stopped by the last couple of days to finish up to exalted. The exalted bonus box was rather nice as it gave 6 or so pots along with the rep and gold. Also got another blue recipe from the cooking quest stuff, this time for happy chocolate cake. Just have to figure out what the hell "it makes you happy" means gamewise.
Fingolfin269
Lifer
- Feb 28, 2003
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Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Sure, it was more for fun. I never had any lag issues so I'm not sure where you're going with that but hey, it was a blast making a push one way and then seeing them mass up and push back towards TM. Now the only time you see anyone do world PvP it's a bored high level character who just wants to gank noobs. BGs killed PvP imho basically making it counter strike in WoW with a raid component (farm those honor points for gear!!!).
To each his own.
It's pretty hard to kill PvP when it barely existed in the first place. There is a lot to say about both the pros and cons when it comes to BGs, but one thing is for certain. After they showed up, we saw a whole lot more PvP happening. Now, whether or not you enjoy what that PvP has to offer is something entirely different.
Good point. I'm not a big fan of the BG system at all as it is basically the same thing every time. AV is basically PvE, AB is basically 'what hand was I dealt and are they smart enough to defend when necessary', WSG meh it's WSG, and I never bothered much eith EotS as it just seems to be WSG meets AB.
QuantumPion
Diamond Member
- Jun 27, 2005
- 6,010
- 1
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mages can't frost nova while stunned.
in the end it doesn't matter whether you garrote or CS, a mage is a free HK to a (shadowstep) rogue regardless.
lupi
Lifer
- Apr 8, 2001
- 32,539
- 260
- 126
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
Sure, it was more for fun. I never had any lag issues so I'm not sure where you're going with that but hey, it was a blast making a push one way and then seeing them mass up and push back towards TM. Now the only time you see anyone do world PvP it's a bored high level character who just wants to gank noobs. BGs killed PvP imho basically making it counter strike in WoW with a raid component (farm those honor points for gear!!!).
To each his own.
It's pretty hard to kill PvP when it barely existed in the first place. There is a lot to say about both the pros and cons when it comes to BGs, but one thing is for certain. After they showed up, we saw a whole lot more PvP happening. Now, whether or not you enjoy what that PvP has to offer is something entirely different.
Good point. I'm not a big fan of the BG system at all as it is basically the same thing every time. AV is basically PvE, AB is basically 'what hand was I dealt and are they smart enough to defend when necessary', WSG meh it's WSG, and I never bothered much eith EotS as it just seems to be WSG meets AB.
There was some good world pvp back after they first added honor points before the days of BGs. But once they tossed in DKs they effectively killed it given how much they impacted the old fubared ranking system. I've only had a couple WOW! moments playing this game, watching several full raid groups siege an enemy factions main city being one of them.
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
- 30,383
- 912
- 126
Finally got Sha'tar revered on my priest and now I gotta do it on my mage. Still working on getting my Enchanting up and I'm a bit surprised myself... I never really planned to get it higher than 325 and I'm already 359 :Q! I'm working at getting my warrior's engineering to 375 (362 at the moment) and my rogue's leatherworking to 375.
But my god let me tell you... I swear that if you want to find out if a player is competent, just bring them to Bot! The last two times I went on any character, the group has wiped to Freywinn at least once. Whether it's the players do not understand the concept of moving around to the side to get out of LoS or that you HAVE to kill the little flayers quickly. Most groups don't kill the annoying little flowers but I told the warlocks (we had two) to keep SoC up on Freywinn to help deal with them, but well... didn't listen. Not to mention how they took "stand close to the pedestals to take out the mobs" on Laj a little too seriously and literally stood on them. Not to mention, I think they DoT'd the mobs as they took an ass-ton of damage before the mobs actually died. My mage maybe gets hit once per spawn but usually not at all!
UGH
That isn't PVP though. A smart player realizes that PVP provides ends to a goal where something like the old Hillsbrad wars literally did nothing but allow people to PVP for fun (although you eventually got honor for it when the honor system came out). But, I'm one to say that the honor system also killed PVP. The honor system promotes playing in groups to gank other players rather than fight them... I mean what's better... killing players ever so often but possibly dying yourself or sharing the honor and always killing the other players because you have a good numbers advantage (which also makes up for a lack in skill).
I am finally learning to PVP as a rogue the right way... against clothies - garrote-silence mixed with the usual cripple & stuns as sub spec and they can barely do anything, much less hit their oh-shit button. It's way too easy as a rogue if you do things right. As a combat rogue I went in there gung-ho going toe-to-toe and half the time they would get away/kite me to no end.
BTW, does garrote-silence keep mages from blinking? I still think it's crap they can blink out of cheapshot.... philosophically-speaking.[/quote]
Yes it stops mages from blinking and I usually only use garrote on mages because the silence effect is short. Unless clothies plan on trinketing out of the stun, CS is just as good. Also, as a note, I'm not shadowstep or I'd try and force the blink like ggnl mentioned.
But my god let me tell you... I swear that if you want to find out if a player is competent, just bring them to Bot! The last two times I went on any character, the group has wiped to Freywinn at least once. Whether it's the players do not understand the concept of moving around to the side to get out of LoS or that you HAVE to kill the little flayers quickly. Most groups don't kill the annoying little flowers but I told the warlocks (we had two) to keep SoC up on Freywinn to help deal with them, but well... didn't listen. Not to mention how they took "stand close to the pedestals to take out the mobs" on Laj a little too seriously and literally stood on them. Not to mention, I think they DoT'd the mobs as they took an ass-ton of damage before the mobs actually died. My mage maybe gets hit once per spawn but usually not at all!
UGH
That isn't PVP though. A smart player realizes that PVP provides ends to a goal where something like the old Hillsbrad wars literally did nothing but allow people to PVP for fun (although you eventually got honor for it when the honor system came out). But, I'm one to say that the honor system also killed PVP. The honor system promotes playing in groups to gank other players rather than fight them... I mean what's better... killing players ever so often but possibly dying yourself or sharing the honor and always killing the other players because you have a good numbers advantage (which also makes up for a lack in skill).
I am finally learning to PVP as a rogue the right way... against clothies - garrote-silence mixed with the usual cripple & stuns as sub spec and they can barely do anything, much less hit their oh-shit button. It's way too easy as a rogue if you do things right. As a combat rogue I went in there gung-ho going toe-to-toe and half the time they would get away/kite me to no end.
BTW, does garrote-silence keep mages from blinking? I still think it's crap they can blink out of cheapshot.... philosophically-speaking.[/quote]
Yes it stops mages from blinking and I usually only use garrote on mages because the silence effect is short. Unless clothies plan on trinketing out of the stun, CS is just as good. Also, as a note, I'm not shadowstep or I'd try and force the blink like ggnl mentioned.
You are farming that staff for the.... hit? The staff has a whopping 16 hit, the Star Heart Lamp alone has 12 and it's just an OH, pair that with the Greatsword off of Murmur and you have 10 more hit and 31 more damage. OK, that would require 2 drops, so you could pick up the Continum blade to go with the Star Heart and still have 4 more hit and 22 more dmg. You know what, forget everything I just said, I am a moron. Been a looonnnggg time since I was seriously looking at blue gear, Sun Infused Focus Staff with three veiled noble topaz gives you 35 hit and 141 bonus damage if that is your main focus Kael drops that in ez mode.
Hit is VASTLY overrated for early raids in particular. If you are starting up Kara you should have your SpellStrike set at least, maybe the Belt of Blasting and/or your crafted epic gear- that will be fine for Kara as long as it is gemmed properly.
If you get lucky on drops you will cap around Mount Hyjal without gems or chants. I still have hit gems in my gear to get to cap, 1100bonus dmg(frost or fire, think it's around 1300ish arcane) and 210 haste to give you an idea of what gear level you are talking about. Yes, I could grab a bunch of absolute crap blues with tons of hit(Scryer's Bloodgem anyone?
) but there is no way I could hope to match the dps of Timbal's Focusing Crystal with 4 gems, not even epic gems would be close to it.Hit capped in Kara for a mage is an obnoxious amount of overkill. I went in on a pug on the mage last week, was bored(Kara badge run- epic gem- sell gem- much better gold per hour then dailies
), wasn't thinking about it and I was a straight pvp build with no points in EP and rocking a whopping 60 hit, still pulled down 1200dps without a problem. Sure, that isn't very good, yes, having more hit would have helped, but that doesn't change the fact that it was very easily beyond what is needed for Kara without anything resembling hit cap(142 points shy without EP ).You have to be reasonable when you think that way though. You are a mage, unless you are a 2pcT5 AB-AB-FB spam build crit matters a lot more to you then most other classes. 40crit is better then 20dmg, without a doubt. If you are a fire mage this is an even larger benefit as master of elements actually benefits your overall dps a considerable amount for longer fights when you aren't getting a stacked group(no shad priest or elemental shammy).
Heh, on my tree a druid/lock 2v2 and we ran up against a rogue pally combo, I can swear I heard the rogue cry when I popped a NS-HT on my bud and it crit for 12K(bringing him from ~5% to full health between in and the HOT ticks)- the rogue afkd at that point(hehe, poor pally didn't stay up long).
For rogues, I don't roll a lock, but I know we don't have much of a problem with rogues on my 2v2 unless we run into a nuke team(luckily, you get away from them in the higher ratings) with 2 rogues keeping me stun locked until dead then they go after the lock. He gets stunned, his felguard stuns the lock. He will keep playing that game with them all day(he's very good at keeping his pet and himself positioned in a way that he can use the two opponents to charge between the two). I don't recall him ever losing to a non glaive weilding lock when it was just the two of them and he was demo spec.
On the mage, Ice Block(ColdSnap), Trinket, Blink, Ice Block- we have a lot of ways to deal with stuns, I don't have much of a problem when pvp spec with rogues unless there are 2 of them(I run out of escapes before they run out of stuns
). Using your pet properly for nova to counter rogues is key(no, it doesn't buy you much, and a good Disc priest makes it FAR more difficult of course).
i was at 202 Hit (cap for lock) before i set foot in Kara like a year before all the badge gear not easy but it was dooable then, its cake now and. and NO hit is not overrated, 1 point in Hit (untill the cap) is the single biggest DPS increase per point you can get
i dont gem for Hit currently but will need to again at somepoint, with every single best in slot item as a lock you still need to gem for about 30 or so hit
not easy but it was dooable then, its cake now and. and NO hit is not overrated, 1 point in Hit (untill the cap) is the single biggest DPS increase per point you can geti dont gem for Hit currently but will need to again at somepoint, with every single best in slot item as a lock you still need to gem for about 30 or so hit
Grats on wasting time man
Go into Kara with 50 hit and see how often you are resisted, you will likely be surprised. Kara never required close to the hit cap to easily exceed reasonable dps for that level itemization(800-900).In theorycraft you are absolutely right, and when you start hitting T5 bosses this seems to come into play a lot more. Rolling with 60 hit and no points in EP(making my cap the same as yours) Prince resisted me 2.4% of the time last week. Sure, I could have swapped out gear when I realized I had all the wrong stuff on(was wearing my PVP gear- good crit, down a lot on dmg and haste), but my overall resists were 1.5% and I already knew it was Kara, it really doesn't matter.
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
- 30,383
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When I'm also farming bot for Sha'tar rep as a mage (helm enchant) and an alchemist (alchemist's stone), yes.
I got the gloves and the cloak from Magister's Terrace already.. I really don't want to go back, although I do need to get the alchemy recipes still
.It also doesn't matter because I have the Merciless Gladiator's War Staff now anyway. I would've done the Spellblade + OH combo (which does provide more +hit and +damage), but EotS = FTL (I already have to put up with losing 80 EotS on my shaman and warrior combined... I'll "sacrifice" on my mage and just get the staff).
Like Anubis said, spell hit is the top way to maximize raid DPS on a boss until you're capped. Until Blizzard nerfed spell haste, spell haste was the top way, but from the threads on EJ, they say spell haste is about equivalent to spell hit now.
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
If you get lucky on drops you will cap around Mount Hyjal without gems or chants. I still have hit gems in my gear to get to cap, 1100bonus dmg(frost or fire, think it's around 1300ish arcane) and 210 haste to give you an idea of what gear level you are talking about. Yes, I could grab a bunch of absolute crap blues with tons of hit(Scryer's Bloodgem anyone?
It's actually not that hard for me to cap right now without gems. Of course this includes using things like the Bloodgem.
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
(Kara badge run- epic gem- sell gem- much better gold per hour then dailies
I make ~230g per hour doing dailies... to get 15 gems, it takes about 2 hours in Karazhan. You don't make more money than I do
. Of course, it helps having three accounts and doing dalies on two characters at once ^_^.Yes 40 crit is better than 20 damage; no one is even contesting that. If I remember correctly, the numbers are something like... 1 spell hit = 1.7 damage, 1 crit = .7 damage. So it's certainly not worthless, but point for point, crit isn't as good as spell damage. Hell, right now my mage has over 33% crit self-buffed. In normal instances, I don't need +hit and I find it worthless to use since I have elemental precision and some of my good gear has spell hit on it anyway. I find it's really easy throughout leveling to get +crit gear, but really nice spell damage gear is hard to come by. I can't justify maybe gaining 100 mana and 9 spell damage to give up +1% crit... it's simply not worth it.
One thing I need to do is get the Veiled Noble Topaz design on my shaman so I can get to work on my +spell hit/spell damage gems
. I also need 360 enchanting on my priest so I can learn +spell hit (which I may enchant until I am easily maxed out and then I'll switch to spell damage).
Fingolfin269
Lifer
- Feb 28, 2003
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Originally posted by: lupi
Well damn, another week without a patch. Don't really feel like leveling any of the alts past 30 as it will be much easier once mounted.
Luckily I have a lot of alts still at low level on the server.
I had a feeling we wouldn't have the patch today when I saw the message yesterday that only specific realms would be down for full maintenance.
Well, OK, if you need the Glyph of Power anyway, then yeah, it can make sense. Grats on the staff though, that is WAY better then anything we had been discussing
I wouldn't argue with that for say, Tier5 bosses and up. Hard numbers that I have seen differ wildly behind the theorycraft in Tier4 raids. My mage hasn't been in Sunwell yet, only up to BT- but I can't see hit requirements going down. Gruul actually used to resist a decent amount if you were way under cap(pushing around half cap seemed to take care of it) but none of the other T4 bosses ever seemed to come remotely close to resisting as often as they were supposed to.
For T5 or later I would disagree, actually I would say hit is still considerably better. The reason for that is haste never increases your dpm, only your dps- hit increases both. Sure, for the 2-3 minute T4 bosses it's no big deal, but when you start running into bosses with some HP it gets to be a larger issue.
Wow, you are on a cheap server- cut epic gems sell for 550G-600G on my server, full kara clears take about 2.5 hours(should take a lot less obviously, but we always have at least one person afk which slows things down). In 5 hours I make about enough for 3 gems(1 badge short) 330G-360G an hour(that doesn't include voidys, gold from bosses and the occasional boe epics). I don't make more then you, I make a LOT more then you
Of course, a stack of super mana pots on my server averages 25-30G atm, flask of pure death is pushing up towards 100G Heh, I am well under that, just under 31% atm fire spec(22% frost- but frost works way different so I crit far more often, still lower dps though).
Veiled Nobles rock, mages that are coming up we normally reccomend that they have every socket using one until they are hit capped(yeah, we push spell hit hard even in the content where it doesn't matter- makes it way easier then pushing them to rebuild all their toons gear between T4 and T5). Also- just get a chanter to do the hit for you on the gloves. Mats are dirt cheap and it isn't a rare chant by any means, I'm sure a guildy will do it for free.
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