The anti-crypto thread

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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,640
10,858
136
That's cool, but if the Taliban discovered what they were doing they would probably put them in prison and torture them until they handed over their crypto wallets.

Or they would just ask for bribes. Or rob the women of whatever it is they're buying with BUSD. Fact is, it's working, whether or not people around here want to believe it's possible. These women didn't even have to flee Afghanistan (though they may wish to eventually).

I'm sure some Afghans are using crypto to dodge the Taliban and those sanctions.

I can also guarantee the Taliban will be using crypto to dodge those same sanctions. Just like how North Korea does. And just like how ISIS did as well.

But hey, adoption is adoption!

Duh. Money is money. It can be used for good or evil. Currency controls can also be used for good or evil. Today they stop terrorists from receiving funds due to banks' refusal to cooperate with them. Tomorrow they may be shutting down livestream porn actresses, gun shops, weed dispensaries, vape shops, or whoever else comes into the crosshairs.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,848
6,015
136
Bi8tsBeTripping and Sebs Fintech Channel, both did "spreadsheet videos" about whether or not GPU mining would be profitable after ETH 2.0 / "The Merge". On both of their videos, their estimate for how much of the current ETH hashpower, was roughly 60% ASICs.

Do you have links to actual videos and timestamps within them? I'm not going to sift through an entire channel just to hunt down what may be a dubious claim based on little more than their own assumptions instead of any actual real data.

I'm sure some Afghans are using crypto to dodge the Taliban and those sanctions.

I can also guarantee the Taliban will be using crypto to dodge those same sanctions. Just like how North Korea does. And just like how ISIS did as well.

So what? Bad people can use tools just the same as good people. Should we put an end to encrypted communication just because terrorists or child pornographers use it too?

There are legislators who want backdoors installed on all of your devices so that a government has complete access to your communications.
 

DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
587
588
136
Duh. Money is money. It can be used for good or evil. Currency controls can also be used for good or evil. Today they stop terrorists from receiving funds due to banks' refusal to cooperate with them. Tomorrow they may be shutting down livestream porn actresses, gun shops, weed dispensaries, vape shops, or whoever else comes into the crosshairs.
Well sure, but if I needed to prove something actually is useful, 'dodging international sanctions' would probably not be my first choice to show them doubters. Especially when despotic regimes use it just as much if not more.

So what? Bad people can use tools just the same as good people. Should we put an end to encrypted communication just because terrorists or child pornographers use it too?
Nah, bad comparison. Encryption is more beneficial.

Crypto struggles to justify its use, to the point dodging international sanctions is apparently a killer app. Oh, and it enabled ransomware to spiral into the monster it's become.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,848
6,015
136
Nah, bad comparison. Encryption is more beneficial.

Crypto struggles to justify its use, to the point dodging international sanctions is apparently a killer app. Oh, and it enabled ransomware to spiral into the monster it's become.

It's a rather apt comparison. All you've done is draw some arbitrary line in the sand and declared that if you personally think something is beneficial enough then it becomes exempt from your own arguments. As the punchline to an old joke goes, "We've already established what you are, now we're just haggling over price."
 

DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
587
588
136
It's a rather apt comparison. All you've done is draw some arbitrary line in the sand and declared that if you personally think something is beneficial enough then it becomes exempt from your own arguments.
Nah, it's a bad comparison, but this whole 'arbitrary line' thing you've come up with is worse. Everything in the world has positives and drawbacks. I'm sure you'd agree serial murder is probably worse than most other hobbies, to push the argument to to absurdity. What, do you expect me to go full OCD utilitarian and come up with a mathematical model when I say crypto just isn't useful?

Honestly, though? The world would be better off if crypto wasn't a thing. Ransomware wouldn't have exploded and 1% of the world's power wouldn't be used for brute forcing hashes, for a start.

Getting back on topic, the price of crypto actually is collapsing at the moment. Bitcoin just dipped below $40,000, and Ethereum just dipped below $3,000.
Yeah, I saw that. I'm curious if the exchanges are going to suddenly go offline again if the price keeps dropping.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,640
10,858
136
Well sure, but if I needed to prove something actually is useful, 'dodging international sanctions' would probably not be my first choice to show them doubters.

Why not? These people are starving to death.

Yeah... Ethereum might actually have to implement Proof Of Stake in 2022 for real now :)

As long as those EU regulators know the difference between PoW and PoS/staking, it could be a good move. Lots of the PoW coins are either going to have to move off PoW or just write off validators from the EU or China.

edit: also they're going to have to be very careful about how they legally define PoW for the purpose of these regulations. Otherwise, they could wind up banning some legal activity, like distributed computing projects or even cloud computing.
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,972
126
Next to go after crypto is Russia:


I'm curious if the exchanges are going to suddenly go offline again if the price keeps dropping.
Of course, with the exception of whales preferred customers(tm) who'll continue to have full selling access, given they're pulling all the strings. It's all the common plebes who'll be blocked.
 
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AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,233
2,852
126
I generally loath and stay far away in crypto. I was heavy in tech sector stocks and ETFs last year. Thankfully I could see a rotation happening at the start of 22 in the middle of December. Moved most of what I have to safer total market ETFs. While they are down, like most everything,. I've only lost 5% since that mid December reshuffle.

With the tech sector taking a huge beating and crypto on sharp declines, I can see this all in a positive light. I can get my hobby back from the crypto bro mouth breathers.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,640
10,858
136
None of the major exchanges "suddenly went offline" during the last crash. The only major change was that Binance was forced to open a separate US exchange. They kicked Americans off their main international platform.
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,233
2,852
126
A lot of the crypto bros would like to tout how crypto is less tied to broader markets. That was true in years past. Not at all anymore. It's very much apparent right now.
 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,626
5,368
136
Moved most of what I have to safer total market ETFs.
It seems to be hitting everything.

I am at the point I would have been better off with the money in the bank account. That said, my ETF losses are not nearly in the same ball park as if I had that money in crypto.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,848
6,015
136
Nah, it's a bad comparison, but this whole 'arbitrary line' thing you've come up with is worse. Everything in the world has positives and drawbacks. I'm sure you'd agree serial murder is probably worse than most other hobbies, to push the argument to to absurdity. What, do you expect me to go full OCD utilitarian and come up with a mathematical model when I say crypto just isn't useful?

No, you don't have to. You don't need any kind of fancy utilitarian approach if you're willing to have principles and actually stand by them.

Murder is wrong because it deprives another person of their life for no just cause. Miners buying up GPUs only means that someone else has to pay more for them instead if they want one. It's no more immoral than people paying more for beach front property and driving up property values. What someone else does with their money isn't any of my concern and neither is any personal behavior of their that doesn't damage me or cause me harm. No utilitarianism required.

I'm not even going to try to whine about things like environmental damage somehow causing me personal harm. I'm sure that my own air travel puts out more CO2 than some people with light mining setups. No one here is going to claim that air travel should be banned and I'm quite sure that anyone who did would get funny looks. People like to make these sort of arguments, but rarely apply those same arguments to themselves or their own life. If they actually do, there's usually some form of mental gymnastics to justify it.

Frankly gaming is every bit as much of a waste as mining. A GPU rendering pixels to amuse you isn't fundamentally any different from that GPU calculating hashes to solve math problems if that brings you satisfaction in the form of some digital token. The only difference is that the mining can be done without your direct attention. Of course we could draw parallels of running bots in games to attain some reward. Of course the very same gamers that want to ban mining would have a conniption if someone proposed banning computer gaming so that GPUs could instead be used to fold proteins in order to find better medical treatments.

That's why the argument against cryptocurrency often falls flat for me. It's typically loaded emotional appeals, terribly flawed reasoning, or any number of other poor arguments that crumble under casual examination. Even the countries that have been banning currencies like Bitcoin or Ethereum have no problem creating their own, fully government controlled currencies. The genie is out of the bottle and it doesn't look as though it will ever go back. I certainly wouldn't complain if cryptocurrencies went away and I could get a cheaper GPU, but I'm not going to call for them to be made illegal, because what argument would I have when someone wants to make something that I enjoy illegal?
 

Furious_Styles

Senior member
Jan 17, 2019
492
228
116
No, you don't have to. You don't need any kind of fancy utilitarian approach if you're willing to have principles and actually stand by them.

Murder is wrong because it deprives another person of their life for no just cause. Miners buying up GPUs only means that someone else has to pay more for them instead if they want one. It's no more immoral than people paying more for beach front property and driving up property values. What someone else does with their money isn't any of my concern and neither is any personal behavior of their that doesn't damage me or cause me harm. No utilitarianism required.

I'm not even going to try to whine about things like environmental damage somehow causing me personal harm. I'm sure that my own air travel puts out more CO2 than some people with light mining setups. No one here is going to claim that air travel should be banned and I'm quite sure that anyone who did would get funny looks. People like to make these sort of arguments, but rarely apply those same arguments to themselves or their own life. If they actually do, there's usually some form of mental gymnastics to justify it.

Frankly gaming is every bit as much of a waste as mining. A GPU rendering pixels to amuse you isn't fundamentally any different from that GPU calculating hashes to solve math problems if that brings you satisfaction in the form of some digital token. The only difference is that the mining can be done without your direct attention. Of course we could draw parallels of running bots in games to attain some reward. Of course the very same gamers that want to ban mining would have a conniption if someone proposed banning computer gaming so that GPUs could instead be used to fold proteins in order to find better medical treatments.

That's why the argument against cryptocurrency often falls flat for me. It's typically loaded emotional appeals, terribly flawed reasoning, or any number of other poor arguments that crumble under casual examination. Even the countries that have been banning currencies like Bitcoin or Ethereum have no problem creating their own, fully government controlled currencies. The genie is out of the bottle and it doesn't look as though it will ever go back. I certainly wouldn't complain if cryptocurrencies went away and I could get a cheaper GPU, but I'm not going to call for them to be made illegal, because what argument would I have when someone wants to make something that I enjoy illegal?
Gaming is as much a waste as mining? Someone ban this guy....
No seriously though gaming has been a hobby and provided tons of entertainment for lots of people.
 

DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,746
741
136
No, you don't have to. You don't need any kind of fancy utilitarian approach if you're willing to have principles and actually stand by them.

Murder is wrong because it deprives another person of their life for no just cause. Miners buying up GPUs only means that someone else has to pay more for them instead if they want one. It's no more immoral than people paying more for beach front property and driving up property values. What someone else does with their money isn't any of my concern and neither is any personal behavior of their that doesn't damage me or cause me harm. No utilitarianism required.

I'm not even going to try to whine about things like environmental damage somehow causing me personal harm. I'm sure that my own air travel puts out more CO2 than some people with light mining setups. No one here is going to claim that air travel should be banned and I'm quite sure that anyone who did would get funny looks. People like to make these sort of arguments, but rarely apply those same arguments to themselves or their own life. If they actually do, there's usually some form of mental gymnastics to justify it.

Frankly gaming is every bit as much of a waste as mining. A GPU rendering pixels to amuse you isn't fundamentally any different from that GPU calculating hashes to solve math problems if that brings you satisfaction in the form of some digital token. The only difference is that the mining can be done without your direct attention. Of course we could draw parallels of running bots in games to attain some reward. Of course the very same gamers that want to ban mining would have a conniption if someone proposed banning computer gaming so that GPUs could instead be used to fold proteins in order to find better medical treatments.

That's why the argument against cryptocurrency often falls flat for me. It's typically loaded emotional appeals, terribly flawed reasoning, or any number of other poor arguments that crumble under casual examination. Even the countries that have been banning currencies like Bitcoin or Ethereum have no problem creating their own, fully government controlled currencies. The genie is out of the bottle and it doesn't look as though it will ever go back. I certainly wouldn't complain if cryptocurrencies went away and I could get a cheaper GPU, but I'm not going to call for them to be made illegal, because what argument would I have when someone wants to make something that I enjoy illegal?

As someone with Autism my gaming time de-stresses me like nothing else can, hardly a "waste" and approved by my therapist.
 

DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
587
588
136
No, you don't have to. You don't need any kind of fancy utilitarian approach if you're willing to have principles and actually stand by them.

Murder is wrong because it deprives another person of their life for no just cause. Miners buying up GPUs only means that someone else has to pay more for them instead if they want one. It's no more immoral than people paying more for beach front property and driving up property values. What someone else does with their money isn't any of my concern and neither is any personal behavior of their that doesn't damage me or cause me harm. No utilitarianism required.

I'm not even going to try to whine about things like environmental damage somehow causing me personal harm. I'm sure that my own air travel puts out more CO2 than some people with light mining setups. No one here is going to claim that air travel should be banned and I'm quite sure that anyone who did would get funny looks. People like to make these sort of arguments, but rarely apply those same arguments to themselves or their own life. If they actually do, there's usually some form of mental gymnastics to justify it.

Yeah, we're not gonna reach any common ground on this, I can already tell.

Frankly gaming is every bit as much of a waste as mining. A GPU rendering pixels to amuse you isn't fundamentally any different from that GPU calculating hashes to solve math problems if that brings you satisfaction in the form of some digital token. The only difference is that the mining can be done without your direct attention. Of course we could draw parallels of running bots in games to attain some reward. Of course the very same gamers that want to ban mining would have a conniption if someone proposed banning computer gaming so that GPUs could instead be used to fold proteins in order to find better medical treatments.
Bruh. There is literally a thread about a folding@home competition on the front page of this subforum.

So I actually googled it real quick. One study puts global PC gaming power draw at about one terawatt hour each year. That's a lot of power, yeah.
...But bitcoin alone takes well over one hundred terawatt hours a year. For seven transactions a second, theoretical maximum. And all on single-purpose ASICs that'll be ewaste immediately. At least PCs can be re-used.
WHEW.

That's why the argument against cryptocurrency often falls flat for me. It's typically loaded emotional appeals, terribly flawed reasoning, or any number of other poor arguments that crumble under casual examination. Even the countries that have been banning currencies like Bitcoin or Ethereum have no problem creating their own, fully government controlled currencies. The genie is out of the bottle and it doesn't look as though it will ever go back. I certainly wouldn't complain if cryptocurrencies went away and I could get a cheaper GPU, but I'm not going to call for them to be made illegal, because what argument would I have when someone wants to make something that I enjoy illegal?

So, first off, I don't think I've called for it to be banned. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as this thread's been going on for a long time and I may have misspoken. I think crypto sucks, is in desperate need to be hit with a regulatory hammer and should just be abandoned, yes.

Crypto's not a genie, it's a fart in a bottle. We're nearing a decade and a half in and we're still debating the uses for it. The few that ever crop up are either super niche (dodging sanctions) or only exist for a blink of an eye before they fall apart.

Maybe it's that revolutionary.
Or maybe it's just a turd. Evidence points towards turd.