The AMD Mantle Thread

[bystander36]

So let me get this straight. You think that because Mantle in BF4, will see up to 45% boosts in performance, I was wrong about anything I said?

The only thing it may say, was my prediction of 10-15% boosts with higher than that in the minimums, could be wrong. But we all know that "Up to" does not mean it will perform at that boost.

Mantle still fragments the market. And if it truly does give 45%, which sounds doubtful by the wording used, then that will force Nvidia into fragmenting the market more. There is nothing I said that changes based on that slide.

 

[Haserath]

Please stop Gloomy...

45% would be great even if it is merely minimum. I can't stand the times when I get so much lag, I can't really play it correctly.

Plus this would be like going from my current CPU to an overclocked Haswell.

 

[ICDP]

As bystander36 points out "up to" is marketing speak for "in rare circumstances". Though even if BF4 is 15%-20% faster for most Mantle users then that is a significant increase.

R9 270 =~ GTX770
R9 280 =~GTX780
R9 290 = ~5%-10% faster than 780Ti
R9 290X = ~15%-20% faster than 780Ti (they are currently equal according to HardOCP)

Of course that is only applicable to Mantle games, but from early indications it is being adopted by a fair few Developers. Time will tell if it becomes a dud or a game changer.

 

[Gloomy]

so let me get this straight. You think that because mantle in bf4, will see up to 45% boosts in performance, i was wrong about anything i said?

The only thing it may say, was my prediction of 10-15% boosts with higher than that in the minimums, could be wrong. But we all know that "up to" does not mean it will perform at that boost.

Mantle still fragments the market. And if it truly does give 45%, which sounds doubtful by the wording used, then that will force nvidia into fragmenting the market more.

If the market is so fragile that this breaks it, then we should let it break.

I'm an American. We don't baby our markets here, so please chant your commie mantra elsewhere.

Infraction issued for inflammatory language.
-- stahlhart

 

[Lonbjerg]

So let me get this straight. You think that because Mantle in BF4, will see up to 45% boosts in performance, I was wrong about anything I said?

The only thing it may say, was my prediction of 10-15% boosts with higher than that in the minimums, could be wrong. But we all know that "Up to" does not mean it will perform at that boost.

Mantle still fragments the market. And if it truly does give 45%, which sounds doubtful by the wording used, then that will force Nvidia into fragmenting the market more.

Some people still think 10 x more drawcalls = 10 x more performance...when I'd be surprised to see more than 5-10% improvement overall for that (Unless you try and design a game, focused on the worst case for DirectX and use "brute force" over "elegance" eg. instancing ect.)...and I doubt Microsoft is sitting idle now..AMD's PR must have awoken them...so expcet gains over DirectX to be even smaller soon.

 

[bystander36]

If the market is so fragile that this breaks it, then we should let it break.

I'm an American. We don't baby our markets here, so please chant your commie mantra elsewhere.

Seriously, you are going to attack me for a legitimate position, that most developers have been saying all along. Even those who are using it, recognize it fragments things.

I'm also from America. Please just stop and wait for the release.

 

[ICDP]

Commie Mantra? FFS, what is this, the 50s. 😀

 

[Lonbjerg]

If the market is so fragile that this breaks it, then we should let it break.

I'm an American. We don't baby our markets here, so please chant your commie mantra elsewhere.

Yes you do...google "bailouts"..and stop going offtopic on such a stupid statement.

 

[Arkadrel]

Some people still think 10 x more drawcalls = 10 x more performance...when I'd be surprised to see more than 5-10% improvement overall for that (Unless you try and design a game, focused on the worst case for DirectX and use "brute force" over "elegance" eg. instancing ect.)...and I doubt Microsoft is sitting idle now..AMD's PR must have awoken them...so expcet gains over DirectX to be even smaller soon.

watch this:

Even if thats a "cherry" picked senario, it shows that Mantle will give more than just 5-10% differnce in performance.


Starswarm demo goes from like 8.5 fps avg ---> 30 fps with mantle, compaired to running DirectX.

taken from: http://apusilicon.com/amd-tech-day-and-kaveri-details-abound/

 

[Gloomy]

Let's be clear here. You two are not protecting "the market." You're protecting players in that market; Microsoft and Nvidia. You try to sugar coat it by saying Mantle is "fragmenting the market." But you just want to keep two has-beens from sliding out of the game, something which happened many times in the past and will continue to happen in the future.

What you two suggest runs contrary to capitalist ideals and the American dream. Nice try though, I can spot communists like you two from a mile away :thumbsup:

Infraction issued for inflammatory language. One additional day off for accumulation of points.
-- stahlhart

 

[bystander36]

Let's be clear here. You two are not protecting "the market." You're protecting players in that market; Microsoft and Nvidia. You try to sugar coat it by saying Mantle is "fragmenting the market." But you just want to keep two has-beens from sliding out of the game, something which happened many times in the past and will continue to happen in the future.

What you two suggest runs contrary to capitalist ideals and the American dream. Nice try though, I can spot communists like you two from a mile away :thumbsup:

Is it your dream for AMD to have a monopoly? Or do you not care about game quality problems with fragmentation?

As a capitalist, you surely know that monopolies destroy competition and is prohibited.

 

[Gloomy]

Is it your dream for AMD to have a monopoly? Or do you not care about game quality problems with fragmentation?

As a capitalist, you surely know that monopolies destroy competition and is prohibited.

What monopoly, though? Is it a guaranteed monopoly if Nvidia goes down? You think all their IP and talent will just disappear? You think "the market" will let that happen?

Seriously think about it. How important is the "Nvidia" name? Beyond the emotional distress it will cause you and your European friend to see Nvidia die, "the market" and everyone else would not even bat an eye.

If you don't believe that, ask all the companies AMD, ATi, and Nvidia have bought over the years. They'll tell you the same 😉

 

[TerryMathews]

Is it your dream for AMD to have a monopoly? Or do you not care about game quality problems with fragmentation?

As a capitalist, you surely know that monopolies destroy competition and is prohibited.

Nothing will stop Nvidia from writing Mantle drivers except hubris. I remember a time when multiple companies wrote Glide wrappers.

 

[dacostafilipe]

Some people still think 10 x more drawcalls = 10 x more performance...when I'd be surprised to see more than 5-10% improvement overall for that (Unless you try and design a game, focused on the worst case for DirectX and use "brute force" over "elegance" eg. instancing ect.)...and I doubt Microsoft is sitting idle now..AMD's PR must have awoken them...so expcet gains over DirectX to be even smaller soon.

So, at first you say that we will have like 5-10% more performance ... then you say AMD woken Microsoft up? But if the performance gains are so small, why would they wake up?

Your post does not make any sense to me ...

 

[Lonbjerg]

So, at first you say that we will have like 5-10% more performance ... then you say AMD woken Microsoft up? But if the performance gains are so small, why would they wake up?

Your post does not make any sense to me ...

I said AMD's PR woke Microsoft...not any actual performance...and anything about Mantle is stil PR.

Reading can be hard.

 

[Spjut]

Some people still think 10 x more drawcalls = 10 x more performance...when I'd be surprised to see more than 5-10% improvement overall for that (Unless you try and design a game, focused on the worst case for DirectX and use "brute force" over "elegance" eg. instancing ect.)...and I doubt Microsoft is sitting idle now..AMD's PR must have awoken them...so expcet gains over DirectX to be even smaller soon.

But even if the next DirectX were as efficient as Mantle, you'll likely be forced to get a new Windows to use it.
The far majority of studios will keep using DX11 due to Windows 7, just like how DX9 lived for so long due to Windows XP


We'll just have to wait and see until the benchmarks have come.
I personally believe Mantle's gains will be much more obvious on systems with older CPUs, like Phenom II X4/X6 and C2Q than with i7 4770k

 

[bystander36]

What monopoly, though? Is it a guaranteed monopoly if Nvidia goes down? You think all their IP and talent will just disappear? You think "the market" will let that happen?

Seriously think about it. How important is the "Nvidia" name? Beyond the emotional distress it will cause you and your European friend to see Nvidia die, "the market" and everyone else would not even bat an eye.

If you don't believe that, ask all the companies AMD, ATi, and Nvidia have bought over the years. They'll tell you the same 😉

There are 2 discrete card makers. If one goes down, that is a monopoly. Or is my math wrong?

And seriously, as an American, born and raised, family dating back to the early 1700's, even before the US broke free from the Brits, it is rather insulting to have to listen to you give us a bad name.

And I do not expect a monopoly, as I would not expect Nvidia to go down. It just sounds like that is what you want. I only expect more porting issues, and if Mantle is so great, Nvidia will likely join in with their own API, further fragmenting things. Further making the PC less desirable to port to.

Of course this is only a prediction.

 

[Lonbjerg]

watch this:

Even if thats a "cherry" picked senario, it shows that Mantle will give more than just 5-10% differnce in performance.


Starswarm demo goes from like 8.5 fps avg ---> 30 fps with mantle, compaired to running DirectX.

taken from: http://apusilicon.com/amd-tech-day-and-kaveri-details-abound/

Compare AMD's tesselation deficiet to NVIDIA's...and the see it that translates directly to performance in games...it dosn't.

Making a engine to be a PR piece for Mantle, by coding the techdome engine to hit DX at it worst and code in ways that dosn't use some of the elegance build into DX, but relies on "brute force" can show results that will not translate to others techdemos (still a unreleased "game")...

PR is funny...it like election promises...some people eat it raw.

 

[krumme]

Up to 45% doesn't mean 45% improvements. It means in the best case scenario, you may see 45%. You see this with driver updates all the time. Rarely do you actually see improvements when they say up to 20% boost in X game.

What you likely will see is 15-20% for most Mantle users, but someone with a specific hardware config, such as a slow AMD CPU/APU, they may see up to 45%. Maybe it is in specific locations in the game.

At least we know the high end. I guess we'll have to wait to see the average.

What is interesting for most of us is the improvement for quad sb ib hw using perhaps around 7970 class perf. And what is important in relation to bf4 is the min fps in heavy mp maps as it defines playability and compettitiveness. Min fps and smootness matters not average fps. Thats how i see it as a bf4 gamer. Anyone playing bf4 disagree?

 

[Lonbjerg]

There are 2 discrete card makers. If one goes down, that is a monopoly. Or is my math wrong?

And seriously, as an American, born and raised, family dating back to the early 1700's, even before the US broke free from the Brits, it is rather insulting to have to listen to you give us a bad name.

It's just an "Ad hominen" off-topic fallacy...just report him and keep posting about the Mantle PR 😉

 

[dacostafilipe]

I said AMD's PR woke Microsoft...not any actual performance...and anything about Mantle is stil PR.

Reading can be hard.

Again, your post makes no sense.

If as you say it's only PR and nothing behind ... why would MS wake up.

 

[krumme]

As bystander36 points out "up to" is marketing speak for "in rare circumstances". Though even if BF4 is 15%-20% faster for most Mantle users then that is a significant increase.

R9 270 =~ GTX770
R9 280 =~GTX780
R9 290 = ~5%-10% faster than 780Ti
R9 290X = ~15%-20% faster than 780Ti (they are currently equal according to HardOCP)

Of course that is only applicable to Mantle games, but from early indications it is being adopted by a fair few Developers. Time will tell if it becomes a dud or a game changer.

Good example. Goes to show yow radical a 15-20% improvement is for the market for the games.

Personally when i see the marketing numbers i can feel i am really looking forward for some min fps raise. Yeaaaaa !!!! damn it would be nice.

 

[bystander36]

What is interesting for most of us is the improvement for quad sb ib hw using perhaps around 7970 class perf. And what is important in relation to bf4 is the min fps in heavy mp maps as it defines playability and compettitiveness. Min fps and smootness matters not average fps. Thats how i see it as a bf4 gamer. Anyone playing bf4 disagree?

I don't disagree with that.

Only the "Up to" 45% is leaving a lot up to the imagination.
What things will see 45% boosts in performance?
What hardware will see up to 45% boosts in performance?
Will it be minimums that get the boost?
Will it be CPU bottlenecks that get the boost?
Will it be the APU's that see up to 45% boosts?

 

[Gloomy]

It's just an "Ad hominen" off-topic fallacy...just report him and keep posting about the Mantle PR 😉

How am I off-topic? I'm just calling out the frankly ridiculous sensationalist concern-troll statements regarding "market fragmentation" abound in this thread.

🙄

 

[Lonbjerg]

Again, your post makes no sense.

If as you say it's only PR and nothing behind ... why would MS wake up.

I can explain it too you, but I cannot understand it for you...