The AMD Mantle Thread

Discussion in 'Video Cards and Graphics' started by Grooveriding, Sep 26, 2013.

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  1. Grooveriding

    Grooveriding Diamond Member

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    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

    :eek:



    January 30th / 2014 :

    Starswarm Mantle Benchmark released on Steam : http://store.steampowered.com/app/267130/

    Mantle is released in Battlefield 4 : http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/



    Since we appear to have a ton of duplicate Mantle threads, I'm stickying this one.

    Super Moderator BFG10K.
     
    #1 Grooveriding, Sep 26, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2014
  2. ShintaiDK

    ShintaiDK Lifer

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    Xbox One uses DX11.1. PS4 uses OpenGL ES. And the PC uses DX.

    I doubt Mantle will run on anything but the PC. Also I have a feeling the hype already ran with this. Specially with the absense of any direct performance benefits. So far BF4 will be the only game using it. And I have a feeling its DICE, more than AMD thats behind it.
     
    #2 ShintaiDK, Sep 26, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  3. GaiaHunter

    GaiaHunter Diamond Member

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    Is that another ShintaiDK forecast?

    So you really believe that consoles get that kind of performance from ultra crappy hardware by running only on something like the APIs that exist in the PC?

    And it isn't something that will run on BF4 - it is something that will run on the frostbite engine.

    From the same anandtech article from the OP

     
    #3 GaiaHunter, Sep 26, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  4. Grooveriding

    Grooveriding Diamond Member

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    PS4 supports OpenGL, as well as DX11 and makes use of a low-level API. Much like the 360 and PS3 allow developers to do the same at a low-level. If you read Ryan's article it helps to explain. I think they basically have to go this way with consoles with their long shelf-life and static hardware set to keep getting as much performance out of them as possible.

    http://www.geek.com/games/sony-iimprove-directx-11-for-the-ps4-blu-ray-1544364/

     
  5. ShintaiDK

    ShintaiDK Lifer

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    The PS4 doesnt run Windows, meaning no DirectX. And DirectX emulation is far from high performance.
     
  6. MeldarthX

    MeldarthX Golden Member

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    One saying its used on X1 - now another saying its very similar to one used on PS4....

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-could-amd-mantle-revolutionise-pc-gaming


    Gee I'd say you're batting a 1000 in your predictions their Shin......;)


    This looks to be the low level API that unites at least 3 platforms.......along with a 4th around the corner.
     
  7. exar333

    exar333 Diamond Member

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    We could very well be seeing the 'new' DirectX standard here guys. If this is truly be used for both the XBOne and PS4, and soon for AMD Desktop, there is no reason this couldn't just be the new standard.

    Obviously AMD worked with MS on this for the XBOne, and it very well may be why MS has been so quiet on the DX front, because they see this as future.
     
  8. Arkadrel

    Arkadrel Diamond Member

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    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-could-amd-mantle-revolutionise-pc-gaming

    This mantle stuff is really cool and could drastically change PC gameing, as it is today.


    Imagine seeing people with 7870's getting higher FPS than people that bought Nvidia GTX Titan,
    the [redacted] storm this could kick up......



    Doesnt sound like its just 1 game, it ll be alot of games in the near future.
    Doesnt sound like its only DICE either thats behinde it, this could actually see decent traction.

    Profanity isn't allowed in the technical forums.
    -- stahlhart
     
    #8 Arkadrel, Sep 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2013
  9. Meekers

    Meekers Member

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    I just think it is funny that most people saw something like this coming when AMD got xbox+ps yet there were a few people who were incredibly vocal in insisting that AMD would not get any optimizations out of it.

    If this pans out do you think NVIDIA will still say that consoles were not worth the effort?
     
  10. wand3r3r

    wand3r3r Diamond Member

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    That is probably the best point I've seen yet. If MS knows about this you think there is no way they'd willingly give up directx and lose those windows sales. They have to know and it will be interesting to know if this is part of the future plans. There's no way they'd donate effort and give away the xbox source code to allow this otherwise.
     
  11. MarkLuvsCS

    MarkLuvsCS Senior member

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    I'd take this with a grain of salt. As mentioned in the anandtech article Glide was a great alternative to d3d created by the juggernaut at the time 3dfx. AMD does have the consoles so it's not hard to see Mantle exist if for no other reason than that, but in the PC space it's going to require developers to manage two code paths for the near future. None the less, there hasn't been anything quite so interesting in the graphics rendering in quite some time. Sadly OpenGL has never been able to rock the boat so to speak. I'm glad to see new ideas and competition this will bring to our graphics engines.
     
  12. KingFatty

    KingFatty Diamond Member

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    Wait a minute, so then software will come in a "Mantle" version, and then a plain vanilla version?

    That would suck. I don't want to buy software that has vendor-specific code cooked in. They should follow NVidia's lead and make Mantle a selectable feature, so you can buy one game software, and run it on whatever, and if you have the supported features, it will take advantage of them. Don't tie me down to a mantle-specific version of a game, because who knows what my next video card will be?
     
  13. Genx87

    Genx87 Lifer

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    It all depends if developers put in the effort to code for a lower level API. If this is used on consoles one would think they could put the effort in on the PC side. But at the same time they will be doing a special rendering path for a company that owns a small part of the market. Time will tell. I wouldnt be against such a thing. More performance is always welcome. I am just skeptical AMD is the company to get it done. I am still waiting on GPU-Physics on their cards via Havok 7 years later.
     
  14. Face2Face

    Face2Face Diamond Member

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    Sounds like it's going an update supplied by the game developers, almost like a patch.
     
    #14 Face2Face, Sep 26, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  15. tviceman

    tviceman Diamond Member

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    Mantle is a really, really great idea but Ryan Smith said it best with the front page article "A lot of press – ourselves included – immediately began comparing Mantle to Glide."

    AMD might have a little bit more leverage than 3dfx did at the time (although 3dfx was THE only real 3D accelerator to own until basically the TNT, and even then still remained highly popular), but the fact is Intel's IGP has huge proliferation, Nvidia has a larger discrete share of graphics cards, and developers are already splitting time between different API's. I see physx-like adoption for Mantle. It won't fail, but it's going to take several years for any real traction and even then I will question how well it will work when XB1 and PS4 are two generations removed from what AMD will have on the market.
     
  16. RussianSensation

    RussianSensation Elite Member

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    When PS4/XB1 start running out of GPU power, which is inevitable, developers will realize that there is a Mantle API that can give the consoles an additional 2-3 year life. What's being missed here is:

    From AT's overview:

    "More than anything else about Mantle, this is the point AMD has been trying to drive home, as they are well aware of the potential controversy Mantle would bring. Mantle doesn’t just exist because AMD wants to leverage their console connection, but Mantle exists because developers want to leverage it too."

    PhysX was a prioprietory solution no one really begged for. Otoh, developers specifically asked AMD to create a lower-level API. If the developers asked AMD to do it, why would they not use it? It defeats the purpose of asking. For years developers kept criticizing DX API overheads. Now they are getting what they asked for.

    Get this, if you start using lower-level API on PS4/XB1, your performance will fly. That means more development time upfront as you learn it but over time you get way better graphics and performance which is key for AAA titles. For major game developers to not use Mantle for PS4/XB1 would be absolutely insane when it could give them "free" performance. MS even said they are committing to using this API to speed up performance of their console. Also, if you develop a game with Mantle from the start and port it to PC, you don't have to worry about your game running like garbage when it's ported (RAGE, GTAIV, etc.). It will save developers time for porting games to the PC from XB1 for example.

    "Mantle also assists game developers in bringing games to life on multiple platforms by leveraging the commonalities between GCN-powered PCs and consoles for a simple game development process." If someone told you look you can use this lower-level API and get games to run 2-3x faster on XB1, once you learn that code, why would you want to go back and code games for XB1 using DX and then spend millions of dollars working backwards to optimize a shoddy console port/console gaming performance?

    What about IQ?

    "Johan described this API similar to the one found on consoles where programmers are able to code to the metal. Moreover, Mantle enables higher graphics performance with direct access to all GPU features and brings some new rendering techniques (which AMD will most probably reveal at the AMD Developer Summit in November 11-14, 2013 in San Jose).

    Mantle is compatible with DirextX HLSL for simplified porting, will works with all GCN GPUs, and Battlefield 4 will be the first game supporting it."

    http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amd-a...-radeon-cards-offering-9x-better-performance/
     
    #16 RussianSensation, Sep 26, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  17. SiliconWars

    SiliconWars Platinum Member

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    AMD has guys at every gaming studio - they could even code for Mantle if needed.

    At worst it's going to cost AMD money to bribe the devs. Maybe a lot of money? Who knows, but in the end that's what Nvidia has been doing for years, and if it's worth it for AMD to pay for Mantle, that's what they'll do. How many really big games (that are always benchmarked) are there per year? 20? So AMD has to pay a couple of million for each game, that's nothing compared to what they'll gain in sales.
     
  18. exar333

    exar333 Diamond Member

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    Exactly.

    Anyone think this MS announcement this week is also a coincidence? :)

    http://www.dailytech.com/Microsoft+Looks+to+Unify+Development+for+Xbox+Windows+and+Windows+Phone/article33415.htm
     
  19. beginner99

    beginner99 Platinum Member

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    Nope, AMD will own a big part of the gaming market, namely XB1, PS4 and the share of PCs with GCN cards.

    A game coded for mantle as far as i understood would not have to be ported at all to run on a PC with a GCN GPU. The port to D3D then is only required for NV cards and older AMD cards.
     
  20. Silverforce11

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    They dont need to bribe devs, if you are a big studio with an intention of making cross-platform games, you would kill to have an API thats easily portable to and from XBONE, PS4 and PC, one that is highly optimized to extract the best performance from the hardware. On the PC side, it just enables a different mode that allows the game to run much faster. Its there, why would you not use it if you make cross-platform games?

    @ Meekers: "I just think it is funny that most people saw something like this coming when AMD got xbox+ps yet there were a few people who were incredibly vocal in insisting that AMD would not get any optimizations out of it."

    Exactly. People who think there wont be significant gains for PC radeons is fooling themselves. The entire point of the AMD focus on graphics and their acquisition of ATI is about this, making a killer APU that is the core of gaming for years to come, and leverage that to dominate on the PC sector with their discrete as well as APUs. AMD as a CPU only company has no chance to compete with Intel, they are doomed.
     
  21. exar333

    exar333 Diamond Member

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    Great point. Hopefully this will help further simplify dev for consoles/PC platforms as a whole. That means sooner releases and better performance (especially on the PC). Crappy ports may well be more of the exception, rather than the rule. A guy can dream.

    Edit: Also lowers the bar a little for PC gaming. 20% boost (let's just say) may not mean a 'lot' on the mid to high end, but it's HUGE for integrated graphics. That bumps 30fps to 36, 25fps to 30 fps, etc. More hardware capable of playing games means a larger market to sell to. That's a great thing for the PC market.
     
  22. OCGuy

    OCGuy Lifer

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    I've never seen PC gamers admire console graphics so much.......
     
  23. Silverforce11

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    Are you kidding? For the past several generations, we all lamented at the fact that the consoles are "holding back" gaming..

    Now AMD comes out with a solution, optimize your game on console, and it will run optimized on the PC. Its a fact that console cycles dominate gaming development, because making games is so expensive, studios need to go where the $$ is.
     
  24. Stuka87

    Stuka87 Diamond Member

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    One of the things I see as being a big deal with Mantle is video memory usage. Consoles have always had less member than PC's, yet have gotten similar visuals.

    Direct X (Like most API's that manage their own memory) can be very inefficient with the way things are stored. .NET is notorious for this. Memory fragmentation is a very real thing.

    With mantle, and developers being able to make direct memory calls, the speed and efficiency increase could be huge.
     
  25. blackened23

    blackened23 Diamond Member

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    Well the truth of the matter is that consoles provide the greatest amount of revenue, by far, to developers - so consoles are always the first and foremost consideration when developing a multi platform game. This obviously has effects on PC versions of games as well since the PC is generally an afterthought, or the better PC ports will have specific DX11 features thrown in. But, again, console versions of multiplatform games are always the primary consideration due to revenue.

    I think at this point, it should be fairly obvious that console gaming affects PC gaming as well. Some developers will add a few PC specific DX11 features - but, again, their primary consideration for revenue are consoles.
     
    #25 blackened23, Sep 26, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
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