The AMD Mantle Thread

[krumme]

That doesn't change that it is opening up a bad precedent for future engines. It works for this engine. It opens the doors for more API's to do the same in the future.

I get that you are excited. You have a few hundred posts about it. I'm not excited about the consequences.

I am not worried. We have android fighting with Win. We have arm fighting with x86. There is room for several api.

There is a tendency to natural monopoly here. Having many api is not good so a few will be left. But the best will win. The market will change and the future will bring new api.

Secondly look back. Mantle is fragmentation from pc side. But from the console side its the oposite. And who is to decide what is fragmentation then?

 

[bystander36]

We'll have to wait to see the fallout. We won't likely even know the true result anyways. I do not expect PC gaming to fair well. Not just because of this, but because of many things.

 

[frozentundra123456]

How many plays bf4 on an Intel gpu?

Mantle plus consoles is easily 85% of the total market for bf4 in the next 2 years. There will be sold M of kaveris.

If EA is something its greedy. They are only going full steam into Mantle because of selling more games and more expensive games. Its very simple.

Its aparent from Johans speak at Apu13 that the 15 games is only whats is disclosed for now. More is comming.

Secondly its was very aparent from his plants vs zombies that lower end apu like kaveri is the target for some of the less demanding although kaveri also "plays bf4 really well".

Perhaps EA knows their market. At least they are using mantle to get an compettitive edge.

You know, there are actually a lot of other uses for PCs than playing BF4. And what market share the consoles have of the gpu market is irrelevant to the *PC* graphics market share.

 

[krumme]

His comment makes no sense, unless he think Mantle makes the PC platform more attractive. You still have to program for DX regardless of what happens.

And for how long time?

Imagine what happens if x86 decline continues. Windows 8 failure continues. And igpu slowly outmaneuvers dgpu on notebooks as it looks to. What market are we looking at then?

 

[Lonbjerg]

Do you have any idea of the concepts in this discussion?

GCN = Graphics Core Next. You know the actual graphics hardware used in the consoles and AMD graphics cards + APU's?

They are the same.

The API in the PS4 is extremely similar to Mantle. No it's not "identical" but it's so similar that porting between each is probably a matter of DAYS. The XBox is likely not much different.

It doesn't need to be identical in order to be much easier. This is not difficult to understand Lonbjerg so try harder.

It's still false to suggest Mantle has anything to do with consoles.
This has been debunked BIGTIME.

http://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/Microsoft-Confirms-AMD-Mantle-Not-Compatible-Xbox-One

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-mantle-api-xbox-one-directx-11.2,24691.html

Stop spreading false information.
Mantle is MIA...and Mantle has NOTHING to do with consoles.

 

[SiliconWars]

It's still false to suggest Mantle has anything to do with consoles.
This has been debunked BIGTIME.

http://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/Microsoft-Confirms-AMD-Mantle-Not-Compatible-Xbox-One

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-mantle-api-xbox-one-directx-11.2,24691.html

Stop spreading false information.
Mantle is MIA...and Mantle has NOTHING to do with consoles.

Jesus please at least try to understand what is being written.

- Share concepts, methods & optimization strategies

Do you know what that means? The hardware is identical and the means of coding for the hardware are so similar that many aspects of the code will be directly transferable. It could be up to 90% of the code is a simple copy/paste job between the PS4 and Mantle.

- Similar to developing on consoles

You see? Mantle is MUCH CLOSER to what the devs code for initially. That is why porting from console to Mantle is so easy and fast.

Right there it tells you that Mantle isn't in consoles. Nobody is saying it is apart from you it seems. However...

- Heavily multithreaded rendering
- Asynchronous compute

- This now translates easily to the PC.

To say Mantle has NOTHING to do with consoles is a nonsense. They share many of the same concepts and share identical hardware to work on. How can that be NOTHING?

 

[krumme]

We'll have to wait to see the fallout. We won't likely even know the true result anyways. I do not expect PC gaming to fair well. Not just because of this, but because of many things.

The consoles have been holding the pc back for years and we have had loads of crappy ports. But expensive to make non the less. Fortunately this could end.

The era of perfect multithreadded, huge drawcalls and tons of compute have come to us. COD (aka fish in water and exploding gaz station) will implode and instead we will huge online space battles.

 

[OCGuy]

Some people know so much about a product that hasn't even seen the light of day it is astounding. They could start a tech-forum of their own in get an insane amount of page hits.

First it was said that Mantle will be the platform for a homogenous console/PC environment, making it easier for devs to port. Then we went to massive FPS increase percenteges being thrown around due to a more efficient API freeing up resources, and now we are somehow at Mantle providing better IQ for the PC versions. :\

Meanwhile, AMD has said nothing of the sort. Very odd.

 

[krumme]

What do we know if xbox api is not more similar to mantle than ps4?

I think Ryan wrote what was a little forbidden saying xbox and mantle was the same thing. Bang !! Since then ms have been busy saying it is not. Now its ps4 that is similar. Lol.

 

[Gloomy]

It will ridicule Titan.

 

[krumme]

Some people know so much about a product that hasn't even seen the light of day it is astounding. They could start a tech-forum of their own in get an insane amount of page hits.

First it was said that Mantle will be the platform for a homogenous console/PC environment, making it easier for devs to port. Then we went to massive FPS increase percenteges being thrown around due to a more efficient API freeing up resources, and now we are somehow at Mantle providing better IQ for the PC versions. :\

Meanwhile, AMD has said nothing of the sort. Very odd.

What a ninja edited ramble. Amd said back oct the priority was:

1. Number of ports
2. Quality of ports
3. Speed

All 3 goals for mantle at the same time. Old news explained and discussed here. You are just creating boring strawmen there.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

What do we know if xbox api is not more similar to mantle than ps4?

I think Ryan wrote what was a little forbidden saying xbox and mantle was the same thing. Bang !! Since then ms gave been busy saying it is not. Now its ps4 that is similar. Lol.

Ryan was just speculating about that and he was wrong. Devs/amd later said it was closer to ps4's api.

 

[SiliconWars]

First it was said that Mantle will be the platform for a homogenous console/PC environment, making it easier for devs to port.

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/mantle/pages/mantle.aspx

Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture is the hardware answer to these concerns, unifying the console ecosystem (and much of the PC market) under a common graphics architecture.
This is where AMD’s Mantle comes in. Mantle is a software component that makes it easy to apply programming techniques and optimizations written for consoles to PC’s containing GCN architecture. The chasm between consoles and PCs has been closed.

Then we went to massive FPS increase percenteges being thrown around due to a more efficient API freeing up resources, and now we are somehow at Mantle providing better IQ for the PC versions. :\

Yes because that's what Mantle does. Do you need the Oxide link again, or the twitter comments or perhaps the slides from the presentations?

Meanwhile, AMD has said nothing of the sort. Very odd.

Very odd that you'd make that false statement, yes. AMD just isn't shouting about it from the rooftops - no need when the devs are doing it for them.

 

[mikk]

Disappointing delay. DICE and Andersson are obviously struggling. Their newest announcement for January sounds half-hearted, I'm not convinced. Maybe Oxide is a better hope.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Jesus please at least try to understand what is being written.

- Share concepts, methods & optimization strategies

Do you know what that means? The hardware is identical and the means of coding for the hardware are so similar that many aspects of the code will be directly transferable. It could be up to 90% of the code is a simple copy/paste job between the PS4 and Mantle.

- Similar to developing on consoles

You see? Mantle is MUCH CLOSER to what the devs code for initially. That is why porting from console to Mantle is so easy and fast.

Right there it tells you that Mantle isn't in consoles. Nobody is saying it is apart from you it seems. However...

- Heavily multithreaded rendering
- Asynchronous compute

- This now translates easily to the PC.

To say Mantle has NOTHING to do with consoles is a nonsense. They share many of the same concepts and share identical hardware to work on. How can that be NOTHING?

Yeah, just ignore AMD's own words:
http://www.legitreviews.com/find-amds-mantle-api-doesnt-need-next-gen-console-support_126361

​

“In the last few days, you may have seen a blog indicating that “other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD’s Mantle are not available” on at least one of the next-generation consoles. Starting with our public introduction in Hawaii, we clearly stated that Mantle is designed for the PC platform, where it creates a development environment that is similar to what consoles already offer: low-level APIs, close-to-metal hardware access, and simplified development procedures versus that of a PC. PC gamers and developers deserve the benefits of this model as well, which is why devs like DICE approached us and requested a technology like Mantle. And the benefit of that technology is clear: improved performance for gamers through more efficient rendering.

So much of the work game developers are doing to prepare for the next generation of console gaming is already well-suited for the modern graphics architectures in AMD Radeon graphics cards. Though the door is open for non-PC platforms to support Mantle in the future, today Mantle is a continuum that allows developers to take advantage of that work on the PC.” - AMD PR

Read the fine print...but it's funnny you need to use false PR for Mantle...I guess reality didn't cut it?

 

[OCGuy]

Here is a statement from a top programmer that is contrary to some of the predictions here:

On the other hand, we are a little bit wary about it, because it would mean another renderer to maintain. The more renderers we have, the more we have to split our time between each of them, the less time we have to improve the visual look and performance of our game. So, it’s really a double-edged sword: we will have to analyse the pros and cons before taking a decision.

http://www.worldsfactory.net/2013/10/11/ubisoft-amds-mantle-api-is-a-double-edged-sword



And here is a performance estimate from a high-level AMD employee:

"Personally my expectations are low," he said of a Mantle-plus-Kaveri combo. "But there is an Oxide demo here and they are seeing substantial speed-ups, beyond what anyone internally has guessed at. I'm optimistic it's going to be more than the 5% I'm hoping for and more towards the double digits."

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/co...after-nvidia-graphics-with-kaveri-apu-1199636





So if someone could explain to everyone exactly how and why they are more informed and knowledgeable than these two industry experts, I think it could clear up some of the confusion in this thread.

Edit: Attacking me or the source does not prove a point, in fact it is an informal fallacy known as an Ad Hominem attack.

 

[mikk]

Here is a statement from a top programmer that is contrary to some of the predictions here:
http://www.worldsfactory.net/2013/10/11/ubisoft-amds-mantle-api-is-a-double-edged-sword

Yes the maintaining work and cost is a big factor as well, not just the initial implementation of another API.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Here is a statement from a top programmer that is contrary to some of the predictions here:




http://www.worldsfactory.net/2013/10/11/ubisoft-amds-mantle-api-is-a-double-edged-sword

You seem surprised that a twimtbp developer who has never used mantle and gets paid to optimize for and advertize nvidia hardware in their games has nothing good to say about mantle?

Very astute posting seems legit. Mantle a failure.

 

[SiliconWars]

Here is a statement from a top programmer that is contrary to some of the predictions here:




http://www.worldsfactory.net/2013/10/11/ubisoft-amds-mantle-api-is-a-double-edged-sword

Yeah Ubisoft lol. That's almost a ringing endorsement coming from them. How much access do you think AMD has given them anyway? They only knew about it after the announcement and are firmly in 2nd tier.

@Lonbjerg read my previous post and quit this BS while you're still just well behind. Nobody said Mantle was *in* consoles (apart from Ryan Smith) but Mantle and the consoles share so many concepts that it's a simple job to switch between them. This will be the last I mention this to you, either you understand it finally or continue to lack the understanding required - there's no more I can do for you either way.

 

[Final8ty]

You seem surprised that a twimtbp developer who has never used mantle and gets paid to optimize for and advertize nvidia hardware in their games has nothing good to say about mantle?

Very astute posting seems legit. Mantle a failure.

Indeed and Activision was the same, no surprise there either.

 

[OCGuy]

Am I to gather that instead of being provided a source for the contradictory performance estimates that are pervasive in this thread, we will be told that UBI is a tainted source? But quotes from people who have a real and immediate financial interest in the product's success are pure? (AMD, DICE)

More straw man arguments? (Nobody said Mantle is a failure just because they are skeptical of the 50% FPS claims, and DX/NV death claims)

AMD paid Ubi for Far Cry 3, which does not support the connection that is being made, anyway. Developers have no loyalty other than to the color of money, and alienating a source of money like AMD is not sound business practice. Just because one game is subsidized by NV or AMD doesn't mean they don't think about the next game.

 

[OCGuy]

As someone with a 7970xfire rig and a new 290pro, all I want to know is what some of these conclusions are based on. The last 300 posts in this thread don't sound like predictions, they sound like forgone conclusions.

 

[marinlik]

I think that it is incredible, and a little scary, that so many people will swallow AMDs PR without any sort of healthy scepticism against their statements. Sure Mantle can very well be better than DX in most ways. But as long as the only videos and statements we have about Mantle is from thoose who have high stakes in it being a success we should take it with a boatload of salt.


Edit: I am not saying that it won't be good. I am just saying that all we have now is PR talk from parties that really depend on Mantles success, so we really should take it with a lot of salt right now and definitely not trust everything they say.

 

[bystander36]

Performance improvements or not, that does not change the negatives that come with it. It'll have to be pretty significantly better to be worth fragmentation.

Just because there are advantages, that does not mean they out weigh the negatives. Time will tell, whether it is worth it. Obviously we are going to be going down the rabbit hole. Let's just wait to see how far down we go.

 

[BFG10K]

AMD Delays Battlefield 4 Mantle Patch: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-mantle-battlefield-4,25560.html