The AMD Mantle Thread

[krumme]

My fear of Mantle, and this has been mentioned a little here and there, is it will steal resources away from the DX code and result in buggier games. Probably buggier on both code paths, rather than a single more stable code path.

When games used to support both OpenGL and DX, those games used to be really buggy messes. I'd rather not go back to those days.

You will not go back to those days because the consoles hardware and mantle hardware is more or less the same. The games is made for the consoles. Its easy and cheap to make quality port to pc with mantle. You will get better quality ports.
You have to remember there is pieces of dx in mantle because of primarily the xbox.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

I thought games were going to be designed for PC and ported to console, or has my world been shattered?

 

[bystander36]

You will not go back to those days because the consoles hardware and mantle hardware is more or less the same. The games is made for the consoles. Its easy and cheap to make quality port to pc with mantle. You will get better quality ports.
You have to remember there is pieces of dx in mantle because of primarily the xbox.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Mantle being a new API is going to have growing pains, or at least I expect there will be. A new console platform is going to have growing pains. New stuff, especially low level code, often results in buggier code at first. In time things may change.

And just because they are very similar to the new consoles, does not mean they will be exactly the same. A lot of times those small differences result in unexpected behaviors.

 

[smackababy]

You have to remember there is pieces of dx in mantle because of primarily the xbox.

Um, no. The Xbox does not use Mantle and has no pieces of it. MS wrote (with the help of AMD) their own API, which includes low level access. This was based on DX.

Mantle was AMDs effort to do the same for PC. If it has any pieces of DX in it, it won't make to very far because that is copyright infringement and you know MS will stop that.

And, you have no idea (if you do, please do tell) what the Mantle SDK is like to work with, how easy it is to "port", and how much of the path is required that you write yourself. In fact, I don't think AMD even knows because *gasp!!!* Mantle isn't even finished yet.

 

[selni]

You will not go back to those days because the consoles hardware and mantle hardware is more or less the same. The games is made for the consoles. Its easy and cheap to make quality port to pc with mantle. You will get better quality ports.
You have to remember there is pieces of dx in mantle because of primarily the xbox.

This is what AMD are saying, but unless there's a huge piece of the puzzle missing, how could it possibly be true? Even if Mantle was absolutely identical to the low level APIs on both the Xbone and PS4 how does it reduce the amount of work you need to do to port to PC when you need the DX renderpath for Nvidia, Intel and pre (and maybe post?) GCN AMD cards anyway?

 

[smackababy]

This is what AMD are saying, but unless there's a huge piece of the puzzle missing, how could it possibly be true? Even if Mantle was absolutely identical to the low level APIs on both the Xbone and PS4 how does it reduce the amount of work you need to do to port to PC when you need the DX renderpath for Nvidia, Intel and pre (and maybe post?) GCN AMD cards anyway?

Because AMD released a marketing slide that said Mantle was better. That is how.


Even if porting from the Xbox One to PC using Mantle took all of a week, that is a week away from porting it to DX, which seems small, however, you now have to fully test (and fix) two concurrent builds. That will make it a lot easier - said no developer, ever.

 

[krumme]

Consoles are huge relative to PC yes, but as has been explained by MS and AMD at this point, Mantle is not a console API. It might be very similar - that remains to be seen, but as far as anyone who actually knows has said , you can't write a Mantle render path that works on a console and the PC.

I'm not sure I'm interpreting this correctly, but are you suggesting that companies are likely to port to PC using only Mantle and not have a DX/OGL render path at all? Unless something really drastic happens with market share, that seems unlikely doesn't it? There's a lot more work involved in porting a game than rendering.

I know ms and amd absolutely dont like the idea that mantle publicly is said to be xbox api. No wonder given the politics in it. What would you expect ?

But it is. MS write their own drivers and so do Sony. And put their own os on top. And then they reserve their marketing rights. And yes the implementation and os means a lot.

But its the same hardware with few exceptions all the way to dsp, communication, visual and perhaps even cortex a5 for the hardware. Its nearly the same soc. No need to telm the world that either. The customers wants something special.

And the drivers and coding for the low level hardware must be same or similar.

Is it important what the difference is then?

I understand that from the guy coding the ms stuff its different. But imho thats a very narrowminded look at it. I beliewe Ryan when he calls it the api. With my perspective its more or less the same. And when compared to last gen consoles and pc world it is the same now.

I dont know how the porting will pan out. I have no knowledge about that, but xbox have dx so dx is already there in mantle. It does (edit: does not) make sense right now to release a console ported game for pc that does not support non-mantle rigs. Even if it would be prsctically free it would be a mess for the brand of the game. But i think its quite likely the money towards the quality of the non mantle rigs would suffer as coding to lower level would be left out.

 

[krumme]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Mantle being a new API is going to have growing pains, or at least I expect there will be. A new console platform is going to have growing pains. New stuff, especially low level code, often results in buggier code at first. In time things may change.

And just because they are very similar to the new consoles, does not mean they will be exactly the same. A lot of times those small differences result in unexpected behaviors.

There will absolutely be a learning curve here. And take all the ps3 developers going to a new platform.

But look how long time it took to get the best of ps3. I imagine this will take a quarter of the time for this learning process. Also because the hardware have been available for some time now.

The situation with the first ps3 games was typically more or less ps2 standard. I think we jump one year forward with this gen from day one.

And yes the devil is in the details but now all consoles is the same/similar. And very similar to mantle pc. There is lots of cost to be cut here compared to earlier generations to be used for content creation instead.

 

[frozentundra123456]

In the days of $100M game budgets and 150 person dev teams why do you care? Cost of adding this will be insignificant.

And you know this how? I would argue that with the huge cost of games, it would make it even more expensive to include another rendering path. The more complex and expensive the game, the more complex and expensive it will be to add another rendering path.

 

[frozentundra123456]

There will absolutely be a learning curve here. And take all the ps3 developers going to a new platform.

But look how long time it took to get the best of ps3. I imagine this will take a quarter of the time for this learning process. Also because the hardware have been available for some time now.

The situation with the first ps3 games was typically more or less ps2 standard. I think we jump one year forward with this gen from day one.

And yes the devil is in the details but now all consoles is the same/similar. And very similar to mantle pc. There is lots of cost to be cut here compared to earlier generations to be used for content creation instead.

But you are not "cutting costs" by adding mantle, unless you omit DX or decrease the amount of resources devoted to it. Mantle alone might only cost 20% of a DX port (just a guess and giving a generous number), but if you still port to both mantle and DX the total cost will be 120%.

 

[Phynaz]

And you know this how? I would argue that with the huge cost of games, it would make it even more expensive to include another rendering path. The more complex and expensive the game, the more complex and expensive it will be to add another rendering path.

1. The game doesn't change, the engine does. Gameplay programming has been separate and distinct from engine programming for a long, long time.

2. As you said, it's an additional rendering path, not an all new engine. All the other things a game engine does is unaffected. It may not be an entirely new rendering path at that.

3. Most games are now using licensed engines, which means no additional engine development needed.

To say that overall game development cost goes up by 100% or 20% is silly.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

You're basing this assumption that the APIs are at all similar in how you code for them and that the code will 'port' over instantly. Like there is some option like [compile for Xbox] and [compile for PC] that just does it.

Also, unless you have actually used Mantle and the Xbox One API, I don't think you're in position to comment on how easy it is.

Even if it only takes an extra 2 or 3 developers, that is still TWO builds that must pass QA testing. That extends the development cycle and costs more money. Either costs are going to balloon with Mantle (unlikely) or publishers are going to tell the development studios to just figure it out themselves. Chances are pretty good that takes away resources that would be otherwise spent on just a DX version of the game. Now, how much resources is a question we will learn more about once the Mantle SDK is actually finished.

When I'm not on my phone I will find the video of cry engine 3 running g Xbox, ps3, and PC versions and allowing the devs to edit in real time. New engines most certainly provide real time versions of each port at the same time. All they need to do is add the mantle api after it is baked into the engine.

 

[Paul98]

But you are not "cutting costs" by adding mantle, unless you omit DX or decrease the amount of resources devoted to it. Mantle alone might only cost 20% of a DX port (just a guess and giving a generous number), but if you still port to both mantle and DX the total cost will be 120%.

The cost should be almost nothing to put it into the engine after writing it for the console. The cost for those using the engine even less. Most of the cost in the first use. These costs should be something that they will make back through extra sales or though payment from AMD so that AMD can make the money on more graphics cards sold.

It should be interesting to see what happens and what sort of extra power or render techniques they can do with this. Hopefully we will see an advancement that puts pressure on others and makes it better for everyone. I am glad to see AMD and NV getting some more tech out there.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OHGjSm_RMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y-vKJ5-6KM

This right here is why Mantle is going to work and be little work to developers once it's built into the major engines. They were able to do it with PC, PS3, and Xbox which are three completely different architectures.

I do not understand why everyone thinks it's going to be so impossible with x86, and GCN across the board.

I am almost positive the major engines all have this functionality at this point because of the cost savings it passes on to developers. It's why they pay the money to license these engines.

 

[krumme]

Nice find 🙂

 

[Imouto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OHGjSm_RMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y-vKJ5-6KM

Sorry but this doesn't mean anything. If you have your engine set to update on texture and meshes changes (which are usually packed in container files among other stuff) all you just need is to update those to make changes in all platforms.

I'm used to UE3 file schemes and you can mod any game in any platform with the very same file. The only effective problem is the protection which obviously isn't there for a developer.

Again, model stuff is easy to port between engines, there are a ton of scripts out there to translate geometry and anything you need. You can even sniff models from a DX tool or mod them in real time without touching any game file.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Sorry but this doesn't mean anything. If you have your engine set to update on texture and meshes changes (which are usually packed in container files among other stuff) all you just need is to update those to make changes in all platforms.

I'm used to UE3 file schemes and you can mod any game in any platform with the very same file. The only effective problem is the protection which obviously isn't there for a developer.

Again, model stuff is easy to port between engines, there are a ton of scripts out there to translate geometry and anything you need. You can even sniff models from a DX tool or mod them in real time without touching any game file.

Sandbox
CryENGINE®3 Sandbox™ gives developers full control over their multi-platform creations in real-time. It features many improved efficiency tools to enable the fastest development of game environments and game-play on PC, PlayStation®3 and Xbox 360™.
All features of CryENGINE®3 games can be produced and played immediately with Crytek's "What You See Is What You Play" (WYSIWYP) system. CryENGINE®3 also introduces CryENGINE®3 Live Create™. This allows developers to work with a single editor, but see and play the results in real-time on PC, PlayStation®3 and Xbox 360™, hooked up to a single dev PC. The engine takes care of the conversion
and optimization of assets in real-time, enabling instant, cross-platform changes to any part of game creation and, as a result, materially increasing the speed and quality while significantly reducing the risk of multi-platform development. Developers can see the effect of lighting, material and modeling changes within moments on any supported platform. Cross-platform development has never been so easy!

http://mycryengine.com/?conid=53

Sure sounds to me like you're playing the actual port in real time with Live Create. The PS3 and Xbox are hooked to the PC and the port runs in real time showing exactly what you are going to get on each platform.

 

[bystander36]

http://mycryengine.com/?conid=53

Sure sounds to me like you're playing the actual port in real time with Live Create. The PS3 and Xbox are hooked to the PC and the port runs in real time showing exactly what you are going to get on each platform.

This isn't going to show you the quality of the engines, only that they can easily port over a lot of the models easily. The writing of the engine and the software to do the port is what takes the extra time.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

This isn't going to show you the quality of the engines, only that they can easily port over a lot of the models easily. The writing of the engine and the software to do the port is what takes the extra time.

You basically just illustrated why it's an extremely smart investment to put your $8 million dollar's and your engineers at Epic, Crytek, and DICE. $24 million dollars (just guessing based off the DICE/frostbite number) to get Mantle working automatically in the big 3 engines of the upcoming generation is chump change in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Imouto]

http://mycryengine.com/?conid=53

Sure sounds to me like you're playing the actual port in real time with Live Create. The PS3 and Xbox are hooked to the PC and the port runs in real time showing exactly what you are going to get on each platform.

No, every engine port is different but containers and files are the same. It's just PR.

All engines work with a set of custom containers and files which are used in all platforms. If you read carefully it says all devices connected to a developer PC which is just feeding those containers.

It's cool to see in real time if you're running into performance or feature issues and adapt to each platform but this is not related to Mantle at all.

 

[bystander36]

You basically just illustrated why it's an extremely smart investment to put your $8 million dollar's and your engineers at Epic, Crytek, and DICE. $24 million dollars (just guessing based off the DICE/frostbite number) to get Mantle working automatically in the big 3 engines of the upcoming generation is chump change in the grand scheme of things.

You assume that these engines will be equal in all code paths, and bug free. You assume that equal time will be spent on all the code paths when bugs are fixed. You assume the similar hardware on the consoles will remove the bugs as a result of small differences on the PC GCN cards.

We will have to wait and see how it all pans out, but don't be surprised if things don't work out the way you envision things.

 

[krumme]

You assume that these engines will be equal in all code paths, and bug free. You assume that equal time will be spent on all the code paths when bugs are fixed. You assume the similar hardware on the consoles will remove the bugs as a result of small differences on the PC GCN cards.

We will have to wait and see how it all pans out, but don't be surprised if things don't work out the way you envision things.

3 strawmen in a straight row ending with a very mild personal attack. Lol.

Surely it will take a year or two to see how this pans out. As amd have stated the developers tools isnt even finished. And besides from that i guess they are also not sure themselves where this will end because of the politics in it.

I think its interesting to see if Sony can gain an advantage in the games compare to ms because of more gfx power and perhaps a more agressive hsa implementation - anyone?

 

[Genx87]

On the console I dont think it matters which one has more power. Devs will code for the lowest console.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

You assume that these engines will be equal in all code paths, and bug free. You assume that equal time will be spent on all the code paths when bugs are fixed. You assume the similar hardware on the consoles will remove the bugs as a result of small differences on the PC GCN cards.

We will have to wait and see how it all pans out, but don't be surprised if things don't work out the way you envision things.

You assume that Mantle will be more bug ridden than the other code paths apparently.

Since it's all assumption at this point I've decided to be optimistic about Mantle instead of pessimistic like you.

 

[krumme]

No, every engine port is different but containers and files are the same. It's just PR.

All engines work with a set of custom containers and files which are used in all platforms. If you read carefully it says all devices connected to a developer PC which is just feeding those containers.

It's cool to see in real time if you're running into performance or feature issues and adapt to each platform but this is not related to Mantle at all.

Thanx for the explanation. I think it it pretty cool it can be done this way but i like to be impressed. Always great to get more insight in another profession. (And i did notice it was from 2009 lol)