The AMD Mantle Thread

[krumme]

How would Mantle matter for that? It isn't used in either of the consoles and it has to add time, not reduce it for PC since DX is mandatory.

The investments for games is made for the consoles.
Now ms and sony is similar and similar to mantle. That means if you code your engine for consoles with very little work and very little investment you have it for mantle pc. With good quality ports and good speed at the same time. That is a huge change. And its important to stay compettitive with the other content providers. Mantle covers the low level hardware where the coding is most expensive. But also where the gains is the be had. There will be classes of dx on top of it but as ryan said; the api.

Will that mean less coding for dx and other players and eg. Nv or Intel gfx? Ask EA. I think they will use a larger part of their investments other places.

Mantle is a big and growing market on pc because its not only 7 series+ gfx but all jaguar and future apu onwards is mantle. The new ones with true sound most similar as they have similar dsp.
But as i wrote probably all the soc similarity is there in the future perhaps even including hardware security part.

All is speculation. But it looks like EA is betting on Dice and frostbite. And dice is using mantle as a platform on the pc side because its the same as the consoles.

Yes mantle is for pc. But its the same hardware to the consoles. And amd have confirmed coding is similar if not directly compatible. Its all the same. Mantle is just a name.


Put in other words than how ryan wrote it:

Mantle is the platform for pc, xbox and playstation

Similar api, similar hardware

 

[ShintaiDK]

I keep hearing similar to console APIs, yet no documentation. It already backtracked once when it was not in the consoles, then suddenly it was "console compatible".

Its called living the hyperhole.

 

[ShintaiDK]

How would Mantle matter for that? It isn't used in either of the consoles and it has to add time, not reduce it for PC since DX is mandatory.

Add time, add cost. Only adds performance to a niche segment (~10%.). 9x draw calls and more than 1-2% is all AMD want to say.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I keep hearing similar to console APIs, yet no documentation. It already backtracked once when it was not in the consoles, then suddenly it was "console compatible".

Its called living the hyperhole.

Mantle is compatible with direct 3d hlsl. This obviously offers no benefit because the Xbone is coded using pixie dust and rainbows for its shaders. :whiste:

 

[Yarn]

Where do you get the ~10% from?

Edit: it didn't backtrack by the way

 

[csbin]

 

[tential]

When will it be done though? Sorry if it's common knowledge on here I just can't seem to find a date.

 

[krumme]

When will it be done though? Sorry if it's common knowledge on here I just can't seem to find a date.

You get mantle for bf4 sometimes in december. It means if you got 7 series or r card you will automaticly get the improvement. You dont have to do anything yourself its comming with bf updates.
All games from frostbite 3 engine will then get it to from dec onwards.

 

[Dribble]

All games from frostbite 3 engine will then get it to from dec onwards.

Unreal engine 3 used physx and supported nvidia gpu accelerated physx, UT3 even came out with gpu accelerated phsyx maps. UE3 is the most popular last gen engine. Physx is on both the 360/PS3 and is the most popular physics api on them. How many PC games had gpu accelerated phsyx effects?

 

[3DVagabond]

Unreal engine 3 used physx and supported nvidia gpu accelerated physx, UT3 even came out with gpu accelerated phsyx maps. UE3 is the most popular last gen engine. Physx is on both the 360/PS3 and is the most popular physics api on them. How many PC games had gpu accelerated phsyx effects?

This was posted by Johan Andersson himself. It's not like someone here made it up because it sounded logical to them.

 

[Dribble]

This was posted by Johan Andersson himself. It's not like someone here made it up because it sounded logical to them.

Yes, he says it's easily available to use just like hardware physx is easily available to use in every one of the many hundreds of UE3 games. Big difference between having something available and actually using it. Frostbite 3 supports mantle but it doesn't magically give you a complete game - you still have to write the specific renderer optimisations for your game and that takes time and money, just like hardware phsyx in UE3.

 

[3DVagabond]

Yes, he says it's easily available to use just like hardware physx is easily available to use in every one of the many hundreds of UE3 games. Big difference between having something available and actually using it. Frostbite 3 supports mantle but it doesn't magically give you a complete game - you still have to write the specific renderer optimisations for your game and that takes time and money, just like hardware phsyx in UE3.

Listen, I'm not saying their are code leprechauns who come in the middle of the night to code games to the Mantle render path. Don't you think Johan knows it'll take work to incorporate it into their 15+ games.
as a matter of fact he would know exactly how much work it is "instead of guessing it'll be too hard" like you are. He didn't say have available. He did actually say use.

 

[krumme]

Unreal engine 3 used physx and supported nvidia gpu accelerated physx, UT3 even came out with gpu accelerated phsyx maps. UE3 is the most popular last gen engine. Physx is on both the 360/PS3 and is the most popular physics api on them. How many PC games had gpu accelerated phsyx effects?

Very few. So what?
It just proves the quality of mantle. And that the situation is completely different.

All frostbite comming games will support it.
Frostbite 3 is the future. Its working. As was said by the developers, it demands very little work. Its probably already done for the most part.
Now the focus is probably already on bf5.

Your comparison only shows Mantle is an entire different beast.

 

[MeldarthX]

Listen, I'm not saying their are code leprechauns who come in the middle of the night to code games to the Mantle render path. Don't you think Johan knows it'll take work to incorporate it into their 15+ games.
as a matter of fact he would know exactly how much work it is "instead of guessing it'll be too hard" like you are. He didn't say have available. He did actually say use.

People still keep thinking only Dice will be using Mantle; no November we'll hear the rest of the partners. I can say without a doubt it will be in every major engine. That will cover 85%+ games.

AMD does not need to make sure its in every game; by game; they need to make sure its in the engines....we're 3ish weeks away from knowing all the other partners; but to think still only Dice will use this is foolish at best; and at worst just spreading fud.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Listen, I'm not saying their are code leprechauns who come in the middle of the night to code games to the Mantle render path. Don't you think Johan knows it'll take work to incorporate it into their 15+ games.
as a matter of fact he would know exactly how much work it is "instead of guessing it'll be too hard" like you are. He didn't say have available. He did actually say use.

Nobody knows how difficult it will be. I think the point some are trying to make is that a game does not automatically code itself for 2 separate code paths just because mantle is part of the engine and similar to the console API. I think we still have to see how many engines adopt it, how big the improvement is in a variety of hardware, whether it runs without bugs, and whether the effort leads to sloppy DX ports by siphoning away resources. In other words, there are a lot of questions remaining.

 

[frozentundra123456]

People still keep thinking only Dice will be using Mantle; no November we'll hear the rest of the partners. I can say without a doubt it will be in every major engine. That will cover 85%+ games.

AMD does not need to make sure its in every game; by game; they need to make sure its in the engines....we're 3ish weeks away from knowing all the other partners; but to think still only Dice will use this is foolish at best; and at worst just spreading fud.

I don't think anyone said it will be used only by dice. However, how is it any more valid for you to say it will be in all the major engines? Do you have some sort of inside information, or is this not speculation like any other prediction has to be before the official announcement?

 

[selni]

There's a pretty big market share issue here isn't there?

AMD's overall market share isn't bad by any means (http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/), but it's a still a minority. GCN based cards appear to be a minority of that minority - it looks to be under 10% of the total market. Much higher only considering higher end cards of course, but games have to run on average hardware if you want sales. Given that is much Mantle development really going to be attractive? If you're resource limited, are you going to spend money on the rendering path that works on 100% of GPUs, or a faster one that works on <10%?

It's going to depend a lot on how much faster and how much console work is reusable I guess, but there's a good reason why everyone uses DX/OGL on the PC - HAL overhead is usually preferable to a different low level rendering engine on every GPU architecture.

 

[Gloomy]

Yes, he says it's easily available to use just like hardware physx is easily available to use in every one of the many hundreds of UE3 games. Big difference between having something available and actually using it. Frostbite 3 supports mantle but it doesn't magically give you a complete game - you still have to write the specific renderer optimisations for your game and that takes time and money, just like hardware phsyx in UE3.

The difference being that PhysX changes the way the engine works. It's a completely different physics engine from the default, and shows results in gameplay.

While Mantle is a different graphics library and only changes the way the engine talks to the hardware.

Basically, a game with PhysX is a different game. A game with Mantle just runs faster (in theory).

 

[ShintaiDK]

The difference being that PhysX changes the way the engine works. It's a completely different physics engine from the default, and shows results in gameplay.

While Mantle is a different graphics library and only changes the way the engine talks to the hardware.

Basically, a game with PhysX is a different game. A game with Mantle just runs faster (in theory).

If that was somewhat near true, we should see a lot more OpenGL games. Yet we dont.

Mantle will require extensive work. Just like any other renderpath.

 

[desprado]

Yes, he says it's easily available to use just like hardware physx is easily available to use in every one of the many hundreds of UE3 games. Big difference between having something available and actually using it. Frostbite 3 supports mantle but it doesn't magically give you a complete game - you still have to write the specific renderer optimisations for your game and that takes time and money, just like hardware phsyx in UE3.

Which will payed by AMD for each game and it needs a very good and stable driver support which some people here dont understand that.

 

[Gloomy]

If that was somewhat near true, we should see a lot more OpenGL games. Yet we dont.

How is that even remotely relevant?

 

[krumme]

There's a pretty big market share issue here isn't there?

AMD's overall market share isn't bad by any means (http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/), but it's a still a minority. GCN based cards appear to be a minority of that minority - it looks to be under 10% of the total market. Much higher only considering higher end cards of course, but games have to run on average hardware if you want sales. Given that is much Mantle development really going to be attractive? If you're resource limited, are you going to spend money on the rendering path that works on 100% of GPUs, or a faster one that works on <10%?

It's going to depend a lot on how much faster and how much console work is reusable I guess, but there's a good reason why everyone uses DX/OGL on the PC - HAL overhead is usually preferable to a different low level rendering engine on every GPU architecture.

First of all isnt console games like 90% of the sale? Lol
Then for the remaining 10% remember all the future apu from jaguar onwards. Thats a huge future market compared to discrete nv or amd gpu.

Or put another way; you can get a part of the pc market without any significant cost. In prior consoles generation many games were not portet at all because of cost and most of the games that were portet to pc was crappy ports.

 

[LegSWAT]

The difference being that PhysX changes the way the engine works. It's a completely different physics engine from the default, and shows results in gameplay.

While Mantle is a different graphics library and only changes the way the engine talks to the hardware.

Basically, a game with PhysX is a different game. A game with Mantle just runs faster (in theory).

Apart from the nv logo, I can't see any difference between a game using PhysX and a game using havoc or physics libraries integrated in the game engine.

 

[krumme]

Which will payed by AMD for each game and it needs a very good and stable driver support which some people here dont understand that.

Nonsense. The basic driver for cgn is more or less the same for pc as well as the consoles. Easier to change one driver and small variations of it than coding batman into each game on this planet.

Talk about cost reductions. Lol.

 

[Kenmitch]

Which will payed by AMD for each game and it needs a very good and stable driver support which some people here dont understand that.

Your a Mantle expert....Cool

How much does AMD have to pay for each game?

How much performance gain can I expect?

How hard is it to code the game to use Mantle?

How often do new drivers need to be released to support Mantle?

Somehow I doubt you can answer any of the above question about Mantle. Most likely you have no real info like most of us.

I don't see any reason to bash AMD or Mantle when you know little to nothing about Mantle, it's effect on the industry, the performance gains it will achieve, etc.