The AMD Mantle Thread

[desprado]

They basically won the console business last generation as wel(xBox360,Wii). The result was large losses.

Mantle at this point sounds like marketing jargon for an API they developed that nobody except DICE will be using. I doubt even the consoles will use it much as they should have API's that are truely bare metal.

I think it could be interesting in the PC space if it picks up. But given AMDs track record of overpromising and underdelivering. I dont have high hopes it will be anything more than a niche product or bullet point on a feature list.

Anyways my point was you are enthusiastic about AMD. That is great. But realize AMD has been like this for decades. Always so much hope that ends in disappointment.

So true and best example is TR 2013 and it was so hyped to run on AMD but after a while than 680 and 7970 almost equal performance.It just marketing from amd and nividia to on there other games.

 

[Silverforce11]

So true and best example is TR 2013 and it was so hyped to run on AMD but after a while than 680 and 7970 almost equal performance.It just marketing from amd and nividia to on there other games.

You mean the 7970 Ghz ed is still faster than the 770, while being much cheaper? Seriously dude, thats a bad example. For similar price range, its the Ghz vs 760.

 

[Arkadrel]

And the reason for Titan's price tag is a company which designed an Audio DSP instead of better hardware with a release date 6 months ago...

Supply and demand, the fault are Nvidia's and the fanboys that dont care about price/perf, only about performance.

Nvidia has a loyal fanbase that have more money than sense sometimes.

 

[desprado]

You mean the 7970 Ghz ed is still faster than the 770, while being much cheaper? Seriously dude, thats a bad example. For similar price range, its the Ghz vs 760.

u dont understand what i said.AMD promised that TR 2013 treefx will be only exclusive to AMD but i did not happen and promised to it will run much better on amd card that did not happened either and it was all just marketing and same was by Nvidia to on metro LL.

 

[sontin]

Supply and demand, the fault are Nvidia's and the fanboys that dont care about price/perf, only about performance.

Nvidia has a loyal fanbase that have more money than sense sometimes.

Yeah, price/perf. A metric used always by everyone except the market leader.

So, give me a reason why people should now buy a new card? They can wait another 8 months and will get this kind of performance for half the price.

Sometimes your logic is over the top...

 

[Silverforce11]

u dont understand what i said.AMD promised that TR 2013 treefx will be only exclusive to AMD but i did not happen and promised to it will run much better on amd card that did not happened either and it was all just marketing and same was by Nvidia to on metro LL.

Its via DX11 direct compute, its not PhysX so it cannot be exclusive. It does run better on AMD harder, thats a fact, a 7970 Ghz is around 30% cheaper than a gtx770 and beats it. That's what happens when devs optimize for a particular hardware, and its through DX as well.

When that optimization happen for Mantle... you can think about what it means to code to the metal for GCN versus going through DX and windows for NV.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

When that optimization happen for Mantle... you can think about what it means to code to the metal for GCN versus going through DX and windows for NV.

My understanding is that Mantle is open. Nvidia could allow the same. Whether or not they do is the question.

 

[Creig]

Yeah, price/perf. A metric used always by everyone except the market leader.

Price/perf is a metric used by just about anybody who doesn't have large amounts of disposable cash just sitting around collecting dust.

So, give me a reason why people should now buy a new card? They can wait another 8 months and will get this kind of performance for half the price.

And then you can wait another 8 months and get the same performance for half the price again. Unless there's a new card release just around the corner, you're better off getting what you need now. I doubt anybody is going to wait 8 months to get a new card if they need one now.

 

[96Firebird]

a 7970 Ghz is around 30% cheaper than a gtx770...

Maybe in Australia, but not in the states.

Aging Titan and GTX 780? I know computer hardware depreciates quickly, but I had no idea that $1,000 flagship video cards are now considered "aging" seven months after their release.

Aren't Titan's still going for $1,000+? And the rumored MSRP of the R9-290X is $600. Assuming that the rumored price remains true, you can hardly say that $400 cheaper for similar performance just "a little bit less money".

Uh, I'm pretty sure getting Titan level performance for slightly over 1/2 the cost of a Titan would be incentive enough for most people to purchase one.

Creig, I had a better thought out post typed up, but when I hit Submit the forums gave me a database error and I lost it all. I'll just sum it up and say I was talking more about the 780 than the Titan, which I don't think is worth it's $1000 price tag. I'd say their performance is similar enough when it comes to gaming.

Any input on my thoughts of how AMD pushed Mantle to keep potential buyers of their next-gen cards in the unknown?

 

[Haider]

Xbox One uses DX11.1. PS4 uses OpenGL ES. And the PC uses DX.

I doubt Mantle will run on anything but the PC. Also I have a feeling the hype already ran with this. Specially with the absense of any direct performance benefits. So far BF4 will be the only game using it. And I have a feeling its DICE, more than AMD thats behind it.

PS 4 uses a modified version of DirectX.

 

[Haider]

We could very well be seeing the 'new' DirectX standard here guys. If this is truly be used for both the XBOne and PS4, and soon for AMD Desktop, there is no reason this couldn't just be the new standard.

Obviously AMD worked with MS on this for the XBOne, and it very well may be why MS has been so quiet on the DX front, because they see this as future.

DirectX is high-level C/C++, Mantle is low-level like assembly language...

 

[cmdrdredd]

My understanding is that Mantle is open. Nvidia could allow the same. Whether or not they do is the question.

It isn't...it was clearly stated that you need a gcn card to use mantle. Mantle doesn't know how to interface directly with a Titan for example. Nvidia has to write their own if they want something similar. It is open platform (works across oses) but not an open standard like dx11 and opengl that works across hardware. Low level api and coding to the metal require specific hardware for it to work. Once you introduce different hardware things don't work exactly the same. You have to write it so it takes advantage of the hardware strengths.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Maybe in Australia, but not in the states.

In Europe the GTX770 is around 30% more expensive than a 7970GHz as well.

 

[Haider]

My understanding is that Mantle is open. Nvidia could allow the same. Whether or not they do is the question.

It's open but low-level and for GCN. Unless the underlying hardware is similar which I doubt between nVidia and AMD. nVidia could create it's own but I believe a form of Mantle is a part of xbox1 and PS4. Similar to the way DirectX is a part of Win, Xbox1 and PS4. AMD will be hoping AAA console developers who use low-level coding will port it over to the AMD GCN based videocards. I believe nVidia will hit back with a low-level API themselves and could well be part of Steam dev kit. I currently have an AMD videocard but I'm not a stock-holder just a customer. I'll go with who ever can provide the biggest bank per buck...

 

[Haider]

Maybe in Australia, but not in the states.



Creig, I had a better thought out post typed up, but when I hit Submit the forums gave me a database error and I lost it all. I'll just sum it up and say I was talking more about the 780 than the Titan, which I don't think is worth it's $1000 price tag. I'd say their performance is similar enough when it comes to gaming.

Any input on my thoughts of how AMD pushed Mantle to keep potential buyers of their next-gen cards in the unknown?

Not every game will use it though. I'm sure nVidia can write a low-level API for their own hardware. nVidia have a bigger user base in the PC market so there could well be PC developers out there that do stuff for it. It's be interesting to see the Steam Box. I doubt low-level will used for every title just a few. I mean would you rather code in C++ or assembler? I doubt very much that even console developers will code at a low-level from day one. It will come on later on when the power of the consoles are not sufficient or a title like Crysis or GTA comes along...Now GTA 4 on the PC could do with better draw call performance a console can be upto 9 faster. It's a killer...

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Not every game will use it though. I'm sure nVidia can write a low-level API for their own hardware. nVidia have a bigger user base in the PC market so there could well be PC developers out there that do stuff for it. It's be interesting to see the Steam Box. I doubt low-level will used for every title just a few. I mean would you rather code in C++ or assembler? I doubt very much that even console developers will code at a low-level from day one. It will come on later on when the power of the consoles are not sufficient or a title like Crysis or GTA comes along...Now GTA 4 on the PC could do with better draw call performance a console can be upto 9 faster. It's a killer...

I would imagine that eventually every cross platform title will use mantle. Mantle is as much for the consoles as it is for the PC. Any optimizations devs make for their consoles games can (allegedly) just be used directly on any PC using a GCN gpu. From what I understand is that there is no additional work involved after you optimize your console version.

It's working in Frostbite 3, and I think they said there are close to 10 titles coming for that engine. If they get Crytek to insert this in Cryengine, and Epic to get it running in UE4 then they have basically got all their bases covered. I would wager that will cover close to 80% of next gen games being released. Gone are the days where each studio is using their own game engine. They license tech from the major players like Epic, Crytek, DICE (first time they are letting others use their engine?), Valve, Id, et al. All AMD has to do is get those major engine developers to bake Mantle support into their engines and anyone releasing a multiplatform game has every reason to use mantle and literally no reason not to. Mantle to optimize your console version which will automatically translate to GCN packing PC's, and a DX or Open GL version.

They literally have the exact same amount of work to do in the long run. Actually less, because they would no longer have to worry about optimizing their DX or Open GL version for two GPU manufacturers on the PC. Strangely that may benefit nvidia a little bit, but not as much as direct to metal programming for AMD.

 

[Creig]

Any input on my thoughts of how AMD pushed Mantle to keep potential buyers of their next-gen cards in the unknown?

I guess I don't understand the question. Do you mean why AMD kept Mantle under wraps until now?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I think he means how there are no benchmarks for the r9 290x yet and they will start preorders on oct. 3.

I'm betting that Oct 3 is the day the NDA lifts. Tahiti's NDA lifted on Thursday December 22. October 3 is a Thursday.

Calling it now. Reviews on October 3rd to get preorders flowing.

 

[Creig]

I doubt very much that even console developers will code at a low-level from day one. It will come on later on when the power of the consoles are not sufficient or a title like Crysis or GTA comes along

I would say it depends on how much of a performance increase and programming time reduction using Mantle will yield. If a dev can write one block of low-level Mantle coding and have it work on all three GCN platforms (XBox One, PS4 & AMD PC), it might actually be quicker than writing three separate blocks of high-level programming. Plus he would end up with higher performance on each by utilizing Mantle.

 

[Creig]

I think he means how there are no benchmarks for the r9 290x yet and they will start preorders on oct. 3.

I have absolutely NO idea what that was about. Unless they're extremely time constrained in wanting to get pre-orders started and have NDA's still in place that they don't want revealed yet.

I'm sure AMD wants their full lineup available for the X-Mas shopping season and getting Mantle out in the open first will probably help generate sales.

I'm sure somebody will explain once the reviews hit the web.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

All a ruse. My speculation is Mantle has less to do with ease of porting between PC and console and more to do with porting between console and mobile. Just a WAG with NO basis in anyone else's reality.

 

[Saylick]

I think he means how there are no benchmarks for the r9 290x yet and they will start preorders on oct. 3.

I'm betting that Oct 3 is the day the NDA lifts. Tahiti's NDA lifted on Thursday December 22. October 3 is a Thursday.

Calling it now. Reviews on October 3rd to get preorders flowing.

Sorry, but no DICE.

 

[tynopik]

It's working in Frostbite 3, and I think they said there are close to 10 titles coming for that engine. If they get Crytek to insert this in Cryengine, and Epic to get it running in UE4 then they have basically got all their bases covered. I would wager that will cover close to 80% of next gen games being released.

Exactly, if they get this baked in to the major engines, AMD will have a significant advantage for the next gen.

Game devs won't even have to explicitly support Mantle, the engine will do it automatically.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Sorry, but no DICE.

Care to explain because I have no idea what you are getting at.

 

[Yarn]

And that's the reason why we see so many consoles ports nowadays. Xbox uses DX and you can easily port it to the PC. No sane company will start a multi port game with an low level API in the mind. Optimizing only starts after the port to the target plattform

Game engines do console specific optimizations much closer to the hardware than DX allows. This makes sense because:
1. The hardware wont up and change on them overnight.
2. The hardware wont up and change on them overnight for the better so if you want improvements you're going to have to squeeze it out.
3. Consoles are a large part of the market.
4. The option to actually get more access to the hardware is there.
5. Some other developer will do it and you'll be behind.
6. Investments made in optimizing said engine can be leveraged and amortized over the life of a console.

So of course they use DX, because a large part of the market can only use DX, or OGL but whatever. Again, that does not mean they do not use other APIs or that there is this humongous barrier to supporting more than one path. As far as I'm concerned, the whole console model encourages exploiting as much of the hardware as possible and when they do put in the effort to make these things work as best as they can, mantle should be there to make it as effortless as possible for these optimizations to migrate to other platforms with GCN.