Texas Public Schools now *required* to teach the bible

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
"Texas law says all public schools must offer information relating to the Bible in their curriculum. "

I think having a law forcing public schools to have it is bullshit. Resembles something you'd see in Afghanistan or Iran except with the Quran instead of the Bible.

We force people to go to school. We make states provide education. Seems to follow we can say what will be taught, no?

Even about a state sponsored religion it seems.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

"The purpose of a course under this section is to:
(1) teach students knowledge of biblical content, characters, poetry, and narratives that are prerequisites to understanding contemporary society and culture, including literature, art, music, mores, oratory, and public policy; and
(2) familiarize students with, as applicable:

(A) the contents of the Hebrew Scriptures or New Testament;
(B) the history of the Hebrew Scriptures or New Testament;
(C) the literary style and structure of the Hebrew Scriptures or New Testament; and
(D) the influence of the Hebrew Scriptures or New Testament on law, history, government, literature, art, music, customs, morals, values, and culture."

Oh noes! So scary!

Seriously...knowledge of some of the foundational aspects of our society and culture is a good thing. Knowledge is good.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by: jonks
blackangst & JD50 & sactoking:

You (and others?) are not understanding the argument. As posted on the prior page, SCOTUS already said secular teaching of religion or religious text is constitutional. I am not arguing this point, nor do I think studying the bible is worthless. It's clearly a very influencial text in western society and in english lit. So you can lay off the "jonks thinks looking at the bible is in public school is bad." Were talking about the structure of the curriculum here.

The question is whether a law that only requires one particular religion be studied passes the constitutional line of cases that do not allow implicit or explicit govt approval of one religion over other religions, or of religion over non-religion.

The texas law requires elective class on the Christian bible be the only required elective religion class. The law is saying "Christianity is more important than the other religions, and we want to make studying of christianity available". In this context, a group of students at a particular school who want to learn about the Koran/Islam or other religion can be denied, but they will not be denied if they want to learn about Christianity. This is favoritism of one religion, and as such its constitutionality is questionable.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows what your point is, it's just that your point is moot, at best. It is not a Constitutional issue at all, as the school is not establishing a state religion, or is it persecuting people for following any religion. That, along with them being elective, meaning students don't even have to take them makes it a non-issue.

It goes on to say that schools can add courses on other religious texts if they would like, but only the one on the Bible is required

So your issue is with schools that do not offer class on other religions.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
"Texas law says all public schools must offer information relating to the Bible in their curriculum. "

I think having a law forcing public schools to have it is bullshit. Resembles something you'd see in Afghanistan or Iran except with the Quran instead of the Bible.

We force people to go to school. We make states provide education. Seems to follow we can say what will be taught, no?

Even about a state sponsored religion it seems.

I read the bill and must have missed that part. Please quote where it mandates a state sponsered religion.

 

[ElFenix]

i'm trying to figure out where it says a district has to offer the class.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
whats funny is you have no clue what the seperation of church and state entails....

The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."

At the high school I graduated from they had a college prep class in Literature and the instructor used only the Bible and treated it solely as literature.....

So why use government funding to create a class whose sole purpose is to teach the bible?

The house bill states that schools can add courses on other religious texts if they would like, but only the one on the Bible is required.

Why is a class on the TORAH not required?
Why is a class on the QURAN not required?

Why is a class on the BIBLE required?

As you state, the first amendment states ""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

you could say that as a corrolary, this law, which is REQUIRING a class on the bible, is focusing on ONE religion.

I question the constutionality of this state law.

Please show me where Congress created this law. Oh you can't because they didn't. It was done at a state level and the state can do it.

The reason the bible is the book of choice is because like it or not, this nation was founded by Christians and therefor Christians values and history are the most predominant beliefs. OR would you prefer we accept Islamic traditions and kill our shameful children and stone women for showing some ankle?
Get over your self centered importance and actually understand the Constitution you try to evoke in defending your statements.
10th Amendment:The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
There is nothing in the United States Constitution relating to education, therefore it falls on the States to take care of that.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
i'm trying to figure out where it says a district has to offer the class.

SECTION 3. Section 28.002(a), Education Code, is amended to read as follows:
(a) Each school district that offers kindergarten through grade 12 shall offer, as a required curriculum:
(1) a foundation curriculum that includes:
(A) English language arts;
(B) mathematics;
(C) science; and
(D) social studies, consisting of Texas, United States, and world history, government, and geography; and
(2) an enrichment curriculum that includes:
(A) to the extent possible, languages other than English;
(B) health, with emphasis on the importance of proper nutrition and exercise;
(C) physical education;
(D) fine arts;
(E) economics, with emphasis on the free enterprise system and its benefits;
(F) career and technology education; [and]
(G) technology applications; and
(H) religious literature, including the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and New Testament, and its impact on history and literature.

 

[her209]

I think the schools should be required to teach an elective class on Atheism.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Please show me where Congress created this law. Oh you can't because they didn't. It was done at a state level and the state can do it.

So states and local governments can ban guns right because its done at the state and local level?

EDIT: They could ban certain groups from voting in state and local elections too.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Nevermind. ElFenix clarified in a later post.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Yet you have no problem with schools almost exclusively teaching Evolution, while many expressly ban the teaching of Intelligent Design.

Where is your cry for fairness in that case?

One word: Dover

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
SECTION 3. Section 28.002(a), Education Code, is amended to read as follows:
(a) Each school district that offers kindergarten through grade 12 shall offer, as a required curriculum:
(1) a foundation curriculum that includes:
(A) English language arts;
(B) mathematics;
(C) science; and
(D) social studies, consisting of Texas, United States, and world history, government, and geography; and
(2) an enrichment curriculum that includes:
(A) to the extent possible, languages other than English;
(B) health, with emphasis on the importance of proper nutrition and exercise;
(C) physical education;
(D) fine arts;
(E) economics, with emphasis on the free enterprise system and its benefits;
(F) career and technology education; [and]
(G) technology applications; and
(H) religious literature, including the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and New Testament, and its impact on history and literature.

right, but the part where the class on just the bible is located is a 'may.' and that was the big uproar. you can't tell me there'd be this uproar if it was a religion lit. survey course.

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

ElFenix pointed out in a previous post that the actual bill the governor signed changed "shall" to "may".

different part of the bill. in the original text the districts were required to offer elective courses on the Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament and their impacts or a combined class of both.

Originally posted by: jonks

The texas law requires elective class on the Christian bible be the only required elective religion class. The law is saying "Christianity is more important than the other religions, and we want to make studying of christianity available". In this context, a group of students at a particular school who want to learn about the Koran/Islam or other religion can be denied, but they will not be denied if they want to learn about Christianity. This is favoritism of one religion, and as such its constitutionality is questionable.

that's not correct. the requirement in 28.002(a)(2)(H) doesn't require a class covering only the christian bible. and because the text actually signed into law as section 28.011 allows for discretion in whether to offer the class described in that section, the requirement in 28.002(a)(2)(H) can be fulfilled by a survey class of several world religions, as long as the christian bible is included amongst them. at least, that's what i would say to a judge.

and i've got the AG's opinion agreeing with me.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: jonks
blackangst & JD50 & sactoking:

You (and others?) are not understanding the argument. As posted on the prior page, SCOTUS already said secular teaching of religion or religious text is constitutional. I am not arguing this point, nor do I think studying the bible is worthless. It's clearly a very influencial text in western society and in english lit. So you can lay off the "jonks thinks looking at the bible is in public school is bad." Were talking about the structure of the curriculum here.

The question is whether a law that only requires one particular religion be studied passes the constitutional line of cases that do not allow implicit or explicit govt approval of one religion over other religions, or of religion over non-religion.

The texas law requires elective class on the Christian bible be the only required elective religion class. The law is saying "Christianity is more important than the other religions, and we want to make studying of christianity available". In this context, a group of students at a particular school who want to learn about the Koran/Islam or other religion can be denied, but they will not be denied if they want to learn about Christianity. This is favoritism of one religion, and as such its constitutionality is questionable.

Understood.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
"Texas law says all public schools must offer information relating to the Bible in their curriculum. "

I think having a law forcing public schools to have it is bullshit. Resembles something you'd see in Afghanistan or Iran except with the Quran instead of the Bible.

We force people to go to school. We make states provide education. Seems to follow we can say what will be taught, no?

Even about a state sponsored religion it seems.

I read the bill and must have missed that part. Please quote where it mandates a state sponsered religion.

It mandates the religion that should be taught, sounds like state sponsored. Now let me say this, allowing schools to teach it in a secular context doesn't really bother me but forcing them too does. If allowed and not forced it would give the School Districts the option to offer it or not. This law doesn't give them that option.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: sciwizam
Key word.

doesn't matter if it's elective.

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE


PUBLIC Schools should not be teaching or OFFERING classes that have anything to do with Religion.

That absolutely ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with teaching about religion.

Just can't see very far beyond your own nose can you?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: jonks
blackangst & JD50 & sactoking:

You (and others?) are not understanding the argument. As posted on the prior page, SCOTUS already said secular teaching of religion or religious text is constitutional. I am not arguing this point, nor do I think studying the bible is worthless. It's clearly a very influencial text in western society and in english lit. So you can lay off the "jonks thinks looking at the bible is in public school is bad." Were talking about the structure of the curriculum here.

The question is whether a law that only requires one particular religion be studied passes the constitutional line of cases that do not allow implicit or explicit govt approval of one religion over other religions, or of religion over non-religion.

The texas law requires elective class on the Christian bible be the only required elective religion class. The law is saying "Christianity is more important than the other religions, and we want to make studying of christianity available". In this context, a group of students at a particular school who want to learn about the Koran/Islam or other religion can be denied, but they will not be denied if they want to learn about Christianity. This is favoritism of one religion, and as such its constitutionality is questionable.

Ok, I see your point better. You're saying it's a matter of access, basically. If a group of students want to learn about the bible text, there's a legally-mandated class for that. If a group of students want to learn about the qu'ran text, they can find an instructor, get a full enrollment, but still be (possibly) denied by the school. If a "full" class is 30 students and 29 want a class on the qu'ran, it's not going to happen. If 1 wants a class on the bible, it will happen. Does that sounds like I'm understanding your point better?

Thats my understanding as well, and I certainly dont have a problem with it. My view is (probably unpopular) to deny the fact that biblical teachings arent at the root of our country (given references to God EVERYWHERE) it isnt far fetched to at least teach a class on the history. I understand the question of access; however, the reality is we cant accomodate everyone. Whats next? We need classes on Buddhism? Islam? Hinduism? Where do we stop?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
"Texas law says all public schools must offer information relating to the Bible in their curriculum. "

I think having a law forcing public schools to have it is bullshit. Resembles something you'd see in Afghanistan or Iran except with the Quran instead of the Bible.

We force people to go to school. We make states provide education. Seems to follow we can say what will be taught, no?

Even about a state sponsored religion it seems.

Not in this case. No one is required to take this class.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: her209
I think the schools should be required to teach an elective class on Atheism.

That class would be 5 mins long lol

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: her209
I think the schools should be required to teach an elective class on Atheism.

That class would be 5 mins long lol

Why would it be 5 minutes long?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
"Texas law says all public schools must offer information relating to the Bible in their curriculum. "

I think having a law forcing public schools to have it is bullshit. Resembles something you'd see in Afghanistan or Iran except with the Quran instead of the Bible.

We force people to go to school. We make states provide education. Seems to follow we can say what will be taught, no?

Even about a state sponsored religion it seems.

I read the bill and must have missed that part. Please quote where it mandates a state sponsered religion.

It mandates the religion that should be taught, sounds like state sponsored. Now let me say this, allowing schools to teach it in a secular context doesn't really bother me but forcing them too does. If allowed and not forced it would give the School Districts the option to offer it or not. This law doesn't give them that option.

Where does it say religion must be taught? A class on the bible != a class on religion.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: her209
I think the schools should be required to teach an elective class on Atheism.

That class would be 5 mins long lol

Why would it be 5 minutes long?

Higher powers, or G(g)ods do not exist.
We are born, we live, we die. Do your best to make life pleasant for those around you.

Class over.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: her209
I think the schools should be required to teach an elective class on Atheism.

That class would be 5 mins long lol

Why would it be 5 minutes long?

Higher powers, or G(g)ods do not exist.
We are born, we live, we die. Do your best to make life pleasant for those around you.

Class over.

Basically my philosophy on life, condensed into three sentences.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
"Texas law says all public schools must offer information relating to the Bible in their curriculum. "

I think having a law forcing public schools to have it is bullshit. Resembles something you'd see in Afghanistan or Iran except with the Quran instead of the Bible.

We force people to go to school. We make states provide education. Seems to follow we can say what will be taught, no?

Even about a state sponsored religion it seems.

Not in this case. No one is required to take this class.

No but the schools are forced to offer it, they shouldn't be forced, they should be allowed.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Will they also be offering classes in:

Atheist studies?

Islamic studies? Jewish studies? Buddhist studies? Hindu studies? Shinto? Cthulu studies? Flying Spaghetti Monster studies?

If not then they're basically promoting a religion.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: her209
I think the schools should be required to teach an elective class on Atheism.

That class would be 5 mins long lol

Why would it be 5 minutes long?

Higher powers, or G(g)ods do not exist.
We are born, we live, we die. Do your best to make life pleasant for those around you.

Class over.

LOL, that's about it:thumbsup: