Texas Public Schools now *required* to teach the bible

[magomago]

I think the idea is fine and people are making too big of a deal. Learning about a religion from an objective point of view is perfectly normal and can be similar to learning about different philosophies. Furthermore, its an elective.

My issue would be focusing only on Christianity, and 'allowing' for other religions to be taught. Let us be realistic about what will happen: in most cases, only Christianity will be focused upon simply because this country has had Christianity around longer than any other religion. Its the 'dominant' religion here. IF this class expanded to cover more religions, or was offered in a longer year long sequence that moved between religions (so as opposed to 1 quarter dedicated to 5 religions which is short...you move to one year) then I think it would be great.

I had a world religions class in highschool that was offered as a tech elective many years ago. We did christianity, islam, judaism, hindiusm and buddhism. We had presentations from figure sin the community on their specific religion. I remember a local muslim on Islam, and we had mormons come in as well, and a lutheran pastor. It was all very interesting and totally worthwhile.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: jonks
blackangst & JD50 & sactoking:

You (and others?) are not understanding the argument. As posted on the prior page, SCOTUS already said secular teaching of religion or religious text is constitutional. I am not arguing this point, nor do I think studying the bible is worthless. It's clearly a very influencial text in western society and in english lit. So you can lay off the "jonks thinks looking at the bible is in public school is bad." Were talking about the structure of the curriculum here.

The question is whether a law that only requires one particular religion be studied passes the constitutional line of cases that do not allow implicit or explicit govt approval of one religion over other religions, or of religion over non-religion.

The texas law requires elective class on the Christian bible be the only required elective religion class. The law is saying "Christianity is more important than the other religions, and we want to make studying of christianity available". In this context, a group of students at a particular school who want to learn about the Koran/Islam or other religion can be denied, but they will not be denied if they want to learn about Christianity. This is favoritism of one religion, and as such its constitutionality is questionable.

Ok, I see your point better. You're saying it's a matter of access, basically. If a group of students want to learn about the bible text, there's a legally-mandated class for that. If a group of students want to learn about the qu'ran text, they can find an instructor, get a full enrollment, but still be (possibly) denied by the school. If a "full" class is 30 students and 29 want a class on the qu'ran, it's not going to happen. If 1 wants a class on the bible, it will happen. Does that sounds like I'm understanding your point better?

Thats my understanding as well, and I certainly dont have a problem with it. My view is (probably unpopular) to deny the fact that biblical teachings arent at the root of our country (given references to God EVERYWHERE) it isnt far fetched to at least teach a class on the history. I understand the question of access; however, the reality is we cant accomodate everyone. Whats next? We need classes on Buddhism? Islam? Hinduism? Where do we stop?

It's an interesting problem, because as proponents point out, so much in western lit can't be understood or fully appreciated without some biblical grounding. Shakespeare in particular makes many such references. OTOH, bible study groups, churches, parents, etc, provide tons of alternative methods for biblical exposure.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
]No but the schools are forced to offer it, they shouldn't be forced, they should be allowed.

they're not required to offer any specific class.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: JD50That absolutely ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with teaching about religion.

Why should the government be teaching about religion? Why should the government have anything to do with it at all?

How would you feel if the law said, "A course on Atheist Literature must be offered," or "A course on Islam must be offered," but said nothing about requiring a course on Christian literature?

I hope the state gets sued and is ordered to pay out tens of millions of dollars in damages.

 

[blackangst1]

Im not sure why you people cant understand you can teach about a book of a religion without endorsing the religion it represents. /sigh

Rage on I guess.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
"Texas law says all public schools must offer information relating to the Bible in their curriculum. "

I think having a law forcing public schools to have it is bullshit. Resembles something you'd see in Afghanistan or Iran except with the Quran instead of the Bible.

We force people to go to school. We make states provide education. Seems to follow we can say what will be taught, no?

Even about a state sponsored religion it seems.

I read the bill and must have missed that part. Please quote where it mandates a state sponsered religion.

It mandates the religion that should be taught, sounds like state sponsored. Now let me say this, allowing schools to teach it in a secular context doesn't really bother me but forcing them too does. If allowed and not forced it would give the School Districts the option to offer it or not. This law doesn't give them that option.

I see your point...but American History is a required curriculum...isn't this just a subset of that?

The bill mandates that the Bible be taught in regard to its influence on law, history, government, literature, art, music, customs, morals, values, and culture. This is not a Sunday School class.

From the bill:
"A course offered under this section shall follow applicable law and all federal and state guidelines in maintaining religious neutrality and accommodating the diverse religious views, traditions, and perspectives of students in their school district. A course under this section shall not endorse, favor, or promote, or disfavor or show hostility toward, any particular religion or nonreligious faith or religious perspective. Nothing in this statute is intended to violate any provision of the United States Constitution or federal law, the Texas Constitution or any state law, or any rules or guidelines provided by the United States Department of Education or the Texas Education Agency."

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Thats my understanding as well, and I certainly dont have a problem with it. My view is (probably unpopular) to deny the fact that biblical teachings arent at the root of our country (given references to God EVERYWHERE) it isnt far fetched to at least teach a class on the history. I understand the question of access; however, the reality is we cant accomodate everyone. Whats next? We need classes on Buddhism? Islam? Hinduism? Where do we stop?

The United States of America was not founded on Christian principles.

The word 'God' is not in the U S Constitution.

"Under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

"In God we trust" was first used on paper money in 1957.

"In God We Trust" did not appear on coins until the War Between the States - and the appearance then is tenuous as a minister requested:

• 
  

  One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
  
  You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
  
  This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Thats my understanding as well, and I certainly dont have a problem with it. My view is (probably unpopular) to deny the fact that biblical teachings arent at the root of our country (given references to God EVERYWHERE) it isnt far fetched to at least teach a class on the history. I understand the question of access; however, the reality is we cant accomodate everyone. Whats next? We need classes on Buddhism? Islam? Hinduism? Where do we stop?

The United States of America was not founded on Christian principles.

The word 'God' is not in the U S Constitution.

"Under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

"In God we trust" was first used on paper money in 1957.

"In God We Trust" did not appear on coins until the War Between the States - and the appearance then is tenuous as a minister requested:

• 
  

  One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
  
  You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
  
  This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

Did you miss the part about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights" ?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Darwin333The Bible, as well as all other texts of major religions, are very much a part of our history and had huge influence on the development of our society. IMO you can't even begin to teach about the history and development of modern human beings without teaching about these texts.

Ok, but proper teaching also requires a serious critique of The Bible, such as a reading of George Scott's book Atheism: the Case Against God and other forms of atheist literature which show that belief in a deity is irrational and primitive. Would you be willing to endorse a course that included a discussion of the Bible along with a heavy-duty discussion explaining why the Bible is merely fiction and shouldn't be taken seriously? Can you imagine how much of an uproar that would create?

I have a better idea--let's just keep the government out of religion.

 

[Harvey]

< sarcasm >

Texas -- If you agree with indoctrinating all students with religious drivel, and you believe in your governor, Rick Perry, please follow his lead and secede from the union. We'll be better off without you.

< /sarcasm >

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShafferFor a nation that was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and has "In God We Trust" printed on their dollar bills, having an elective school course on teaching the literature and the history of the Bible is not a big deal. They also expressly allow the teaching of other religious texts if the school chooses to do so.

What exactly are these "Judeo-Christian" principles? Is it possible that atheists might hold the same principles? What if it could be shown that principles like individual rights and democracy were really principles of Western Philosophy and of reason and not religion? If these were really Judeo-Christian principles then why wasn't a nation like the U.S. founded centuries before the founding of the U.S. and why were so many Christian nations monarchic dictatorships?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Let'm teach the truth behind religion, primitive man's mistaken explanation for thunder and lightning.

 

[sactoking]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Will they also be offering classes in:

Atheist studies?

Islamic studies? Jewish studies? Buddhist studies? Hindu studies? Shinto? Cthulu studies? Flying Spaghetti Monster studies?

If not then they're basically promoting a religion.

That's a fallacious argument.

Originally posted by: jonks

It's an interesting problem, because as proponents point out, so much in western lit can't be understood or fully appreciated without some biblical grounding. Shakespeare in particular makes many such references. OTOH, bible study groups, churches, parents, etc, provide tons of alternative methods for biblical exposure.

A note on what I believe to be your point, access: Many courts are ruling that religious and quasi-religious groups like bible study and Boy Scouts cannot be denied access as after-school programs because their presence on campus is not an implicit endorsement by the school. Schools had previously banned non-secular activities under the 'church and state' argument. That's now being thrown out as hogwash.

I take from that two things here.

1. If the presence of bible study or Boy Scouts on campus after hours is not implicit endorsement of the group or it's religious affiliation, it's not a stretch to the conclusion that the presence of secular instruction on similar subjects is not an endorsement of the group or its religious affiliation.

2. The same equal access argument granting these groups access to school can be used by those with differing interests. If a Christian-affiliated group is allowed equal access, so must a Daoist group. If the presence of such a group is not an endorsement such that the Christian group is allowed access during school hours, so must the Daoist group. Thus, mandating that the context of the New Testament be covered but leaving the teachings of Confucious optional may be a similar breach of equal access as allowing a Christian group but not a Buddhist one.

Of course, as far as course content goes, it's pretty much precedent that equal access does not apply, even from a secular viewpoint. Look at "evolution vs creationism". Creationism can very easily be taught secularly, but even so there is no legal mandate to include alongside evolution in any sort of biology/history/philosophy text.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Thats my understanding as well, and I certainly dont have a problem with it. My view is (probably unpopular) to deny the fact that biblical teachings arent at the root of our country (given references to God EVERYWHERE) it isnt far fetched to at least teach a class on the history. I understand the question of access; however, the reality is we cant accomodate everyone. Whats next? We need classes on Buddhism? Islam? Hinduism? Where do we stop?

The United States of America was not founded on Christian principles.

The word 'God' is not in the U S Constitution.

"Under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

"In God we trust" was first used on paper money in 1957.

"In God We Trust" did not appear on coins until the War Between the States - and the appearance then is tenuous as a minister requested:

• 
  

  One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
  
  You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
  
  This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven".

Who do you think they meant when they wrote "Lord"?

 

[OCGuy]

I dont mind if they teach it in some sort of historical context. It is good that people know what book makes a large chunk of Americans bat-shit crazy.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Thats my understanding as well, and I certainly dont have a problem with it. My view is (probably unpopular) to deny the fact that biblical teachings arent at the root of our country (given references to God EVERYWHERE) it isnt far fetched to at least teach a class on the history. I understand the question of access; however, the reality is we cant accomodate everyone. Whats next? We need classes on Buddhism? Islam? Hinduism? Where do we stop?

The United States of America was not founded on Christian principles.

The word 'God' is not in the U S Constitution.

"Under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

"In God we trust" was first used on paper money in 1957.

"In God We Trust" did not appear on coins until the War Between the States - and the appearance then is tenuous as a minister requested:

• 
  

  One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
  
  You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
  
  This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

Also, "In God We Trust" first appeared on the two cent coin in 1864.

 

[Patranus]

Whats the problem?

Some schools require people to read Koran. Don't see anyone bitching about that.

 

[Ichigo]

Originally posted by: Patranus
Whats the problem?

Some schools require people to read Koran. Don't see anyone bitching about that.

Could you give a more specific example for the purposes of this discussion?

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Thats my understanding as well, and I certainly dont have a problem with it. My view is (probably unpopular) to deny the fact that biblical teachings arent at the root of our country (given references to God EVERYWHERE) it isnt far fetched to at least teach a class on the history. I understand the question of access; however, the reality is we cant accomodate everyone. Whats next? We need classes on Buddhism? Islam? Hinduism? Where do we stop?

The United States of America was not founded on Christian principles.

The word 'God' is not in the U S Constitution.

"Under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

"In God we trust" was first used on paper money in 1957.

"In God We Trust" did not appear on coins until the War Between the States - and the appearance then is tenuous as a minister requested:

• 
  

  One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
  
  You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
  
  This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

Did you miss the part about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights" ?

You guys fail at history.

The use you cite in context of the time it was utilized was deist or Unitarian in nature, not Christian. And you convieniently left out the citation in the Declaration of Independence in the line above "endowed by their Creator' that states: Nature's Law and Nature's God

Perhaps you should read the Federalist Papers, the writings of Jefferson and Tom Paine, and those of Adams and Franklin.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Thats my understanding as well, and I certainly dont have a problem with it. My view is (probably unpopular) to deny the fact that biblical teachings arent at the root of our country (given references to God EVERYWHERE) it isnt far fetched to at least teach a class on the history. I understand the question of access; however, the reality is we cant accomodate everyone. Whats next? We need classes on Buddhism? Islam? Hinduism? Where do we stop?

The United States of America was not founded on Christian principles.

The word 'God' is not in the U S Constitution.

"Under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

"In God we trust" was first used on paper money in 1957.

"In God We Trust" did not appear on coins until the War Between the States - and the appearance then is tenuous as a minister requested:

• 
  

  One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
  
  You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
  
  This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven".

Who do you think they meant when they wrote "Lord"?

Merely a measure of time. You see a gnat and blow it up to an elephant, don't you?

 

[sapiens74]

So we are to ignore the biggest literary work in history?

To teach what?


Theory?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Thats my understanding as well, and I certainly dont have a problem with it. My view is (probably unpopular) to deny the fact that biblical teachings arent at the root of our country (given references to God EVERYWHERE) it isnt far fetched to at least teach a class on the history. I understand the question of access; however, the reality is we cant accomodate everyone. Whats next? We need classes on Buddhism? Islam? Hinduism? Where do we stop?

The United States of America was not founded on Christian principles.

The word 'God' is not in the U S Constitution.

"Under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

"In God we trust" was first used on paper money in 1957.

"In God We Trust" did not appear on coins until the War Between the States - and the appearance then is tenuous as a minister requested:

• 
  

  One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
  
  You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
  
  This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

Did you miss the part about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights" ?

You guys fail at history.

The use you cite in context of the time it was utilized was deist or Unitarian in nature, not Christian. And you convieniently left out the citation in the Declaration of Independence in the line above "endowed by their Creator' that states: Nature's Law and Nature's God

Perhaps you should read the Federalist Papers, the writings of Jefferson and Tom Paine, and those of Adams and Franklin.

Perhaps you should too. Natures Law and Natures God werent Jefferson's creations. There is a very deep historical history for those words. Which include God.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Thats my understanding as well, and I certainly dont have a problem with it. My view is (probably unpopular) to deny the fact that biblical teachings arent at the root of our country (given references to God EVERYWHERE) it isnt far fetched to at least teach a class on the history. I understand the question of access; however, the reality is we cant accomodate everyone. Whats next? We need classes on Buddhism? Islam? Hinduism? Where do we stop?

The United States of America was not founded on Christian principles.

The word 'God' is not in the U S Constitution.

"Under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

"In God we trust" was first used on paper money in 1957.

"In God We Trust" did not appear on coins until the War Between the States - and the appearance then is tenuous as a minister requested:

• 
  

  One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.
  
  You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.
  
  This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven".

Who do you think they meant when they wrote "Lord"?

Merely a measure of time. You see a gnat and blow it up to an elephant, don't you?

lol

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Will they also be offering classes in:

Atheist studies?

Islamic studies? Jewish studies? Buddhist studies? Hindu studies? Shinto? Cthulu studies? Flying Spaghetti Monster studies?

If not then they're basically promoting a religion.

That's a fallacious argument

How so?

If I had a store and I only sold one brand of video cards might you say that I'm promoting just that one brand of video cards?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: sapiens74
So we are to ignore the biggest literary work in history?

To teach what?


Theory?

Why not just teach:

Reading, writing, arithmetic, science, history, geography, foreign language? What's wrong with that?

Who says that the Bible is the "biggest literary work in history"? What if Aristotle's works are really the biggest literary work in history since his work is the foundation of Western Civilization? (It was Aristotle's legacy and reason that gave us electricity and computers, not the Bible. The Bible gave us the Dark Ages and the Inquisition. The rediscovery of Aristotle gave us the Renaissance and modern society.)