Texas abortion law: Judge bans state from enforcing regulations

[nehalem256]

Man electing to put his reproductive choice in the hands of his chosen sexual partner, the woman, is now equal to a woman being forced into her reproductive choices by an unchosen partner, the state.

Who knew?? Why do you hate logic?

So in other words you are arguing that men just shouldn't have sex if they want control over their own lives.

Funny, if a conservative said that about women you would say he hated women. Guess you just have a pathological hatred of men.

Women have agency over their own bodies. Men also have agency over their own bodies. You want to give men special privileges and give them agency over women's bodies as well.

Unfortunately for you, we believe in equality for all. No special privileges for you!

Nope. You are the one that wants to give women agency over men. Namely forcing them to be responsible for a woman's choice to have a child.

Equal responsibility for unequal action is not equality.

The funny thing is that you're the guy who used to try and argue against gay marriage (before you accepted it) that gay marriage was equal because both gay and straight people could get straight married. Well in this case, both men and women have the right to terminate their pregnancies, it just so happens that only women get pregnant! So according to your former logic, this is totally equal and totally fine. Then again, we know it was never about that, it's about your pathological hatred of women.

Well that, and the fact that you're an enormous hypocrite.

And by that exact same logic you would have to agree that men and women have equal responsibilities under what I propose. As both men and women would be responsible for babies that come out of their bodies. Equality for all! Glad we can agree

 

[fskimospy]

So in other words you are arguing that men just shouldn't have sex if they want control over their own lives.

Funny, if a conservative said that about women you would say he hated women. Guess you just have a pathological hatred of men.

Nope. I'm saying that men have to take responsibility for their actions. This is a fundamental part of true equality, responsibility. You want to avoid all responsibility.

More importantly though, your argument that the state forcing itself on unwilling women was equal to men willingly choosing their sexual partners. This was profoundly stupid. I imagine you didn't realize this because of your pathological hatred of women. Or... your stupidity.

Nope. You are the one that wants to give women agency over men. Namely forcing them to be responsible for a woman's choice to have a child.

Equal responsibility for unequal action is not equality.

Both people's inputs are required equally to make a baby. Exactly equal action.

After that point a woman does not need to take any actions whatsoever and she will have a child. Literally zero other than remaining alive. Unless you are arguing that women are making a choice by choosing to remain alive she needs to make no choice whatsoever. (which you may be, as it wouldn't surprise me considering how much you hate women) Did you go to health class as a child?

I know that you are going to keep fighting for special rights for men, but you won't get them. This would not be equality, and I know how much you like equality.

And by that exact same logic you would have to agree that men and women have equal responsibilities under what I propose. As both men and women would be responsible for babies that come out of their bodies. Equality for all! Glad we can agree

Uhmmm, this is YOUR "logic", not mine. You selectively employ arguments in order to get your desired answer. For gay people you argue they both have the same rights, for abortion you forget you ever made such an argument.

This is because you're a hypocrite.

 

[Jhhnn]

Such logic applied equally to women when abortion was illegally. Funny you didn't think that women should bend over and take it huh?

Why do you hate men?

Such logic applies to both sexes. The legality of abortion changes it not at all.

Sounds like you don't really think women are active participants in having sex. Sex is just something that men do to women D:

Quite the contrary. Women accept the responsibility of choice when engaging in sex. Men cede that responsibility in having conventional sex with them at all.

Men should be free to choose to be a father at a time of their choosing. You know the exact same freedom liberals seem to think is so important for women.

Why do you hate men?

And they are free to make such choices within the confines of reality. Penile/vaginal sex almost always entails risk of pregnancy for women of child bearing age, regardless of the precautions taken. Or do you not realize that?

If you want to avoid responsibility entirely, keep your dick out of places where it might cause pregnancy or just buy sex anonymously from prostitutes. A near foolproof alternative is to have your sperm stored cryogenically for possible use later, have a vasectomy.

For you, I suspect that he possibilities of causing pregnancy are very, very small indeed given your disdain for women in general. It's not like many would risk impregnation by you at all, other than sex trade professionals. It's hard for them to see any upside to the proposition, I'm sure.

 

[Texashiker]

I asked you before, and you stopped posting in that thread. You claim that life begins... Are you claiming that eggs are dead, inanimate matter? Are you claiming that sperm are dead, inanimate matter?

You are full of crap, I gave you a detailed explanation.

Since you decided to ignore my my previous post, one definition of life is reproduction.

Sperm by itself will not reproduce.

An egg by itself will not reproduce.

Once the sperm and egg combine and cell division starts, life has been created.

Sperm does not consume resources, besides the fluid ejaculated with it.

An egg does not consume resources.

When the sperm and egg combine, the cells need resources to sustain itself. Consumption is one of the definitions of life.

I thought you were a teacher? Did you sleep through biology class?


My may not remember this thread (no insult intended), it was maybe 2+ years ago, it was a debate on rights.

I said certain groups should be entitled to more rights because they have earned those rights through sacrifice.

You said something along the lines that society can not set a standard by which rights are granted. I do not remember the "exact" phrase, but it was along the lines that all groups should be granted equal rights.

If you take that same logic and apply it to an unborn child, that child can not be denied rights because it has not met certain standards. Just because the child has not been born does not mean it does not deserve equal protect and equal rights, especially the right to life.

 

[nehalem256]

Nope. I'm saying that men have to take responsibility for their actions. This is a fundamental part of true equality, responsibility. You want to avoid all responsibility.

More importantly though, your argument that the state forcing itself on unwilling women was equal to men willingly choosing their sexual partners. This was profoundly stupid. I imagine you didn't realize this because of your pathological hatred of women. Or... your stupidity.

Both people's inputs are required equally to make a baby. Exactly equal action.

Wrong both people's inputs are required equally to make a fetus. As you have pointed out many times a fetus is not a baby.

A woman has far more input on turning a fetus into a baby.

After that point a woman does not need to take any actions whatsoever and she will have a child. Literally zero other than remaining alive. Unless you are arguing that women are making a choice by choosing to remain alive she needs to make no choice whatsoever. (which you may be, as it wouldn't surprise me considering how much you hate women) Did you go to health class as a child?

I know that you are going to keep fighting for special rights for men, but you won't get them. This would not be equality, and I know how much you like equality.

She is choosing not to get an abortion. Have you not been paying attention to liberals? Her body her CHOICE!

You are apparently literally trying to argue that women have a choice on whether to have a child or not. But that they are not making a choice by having it.

Uhmmm, this is YOUR "logic", not mine. You selectively employ arguments in order to get your desired answer. For gay people you argue they both have the same rights, for abortion you forget you ever made such an argument.

Equal rights and equal responsibility. Men will have an equal right to aborting all fetuses they become pregnant with. They will have to also be responsible for all babies that pop out of their vaginas.

This is because you're a hypocrite.

Still waiting for you to pick a less racist username

 

[nehalem256]

Such logic applies to both sexes. The legality of abortion changes it not at all.



Quite the contrary. Women accept the responsibility of choice when engaging in sex. Men cede that responsibility in having conventional sex with them at all.

The responsibility of choice.

That's like saying you accepting the responsibility of having $100!

And they are free to make such choices within the confines of reality. Penile/vaginal sex almost always entails risk of pregnancy for women of child bearing age, regardless of the precautions taken. Or do you not realize that?

If you want to avoid responsibility entirely, keep your dick out of places where it might cause pregnancy or just buy sex anonymously from prostitutes. A near foolproof alternative is to have your sperm stored cryogenically for possible use later, have a vasectomy.

And when conservatives say the exact same thing to women liberals then say they hate women.

So why do you hate men?

 

[fskimospy]

Hahaha, physician, heal thyself.

 

[Jhhnn]

The responsibility of choice.

That's like saying you accepting the responsibility of having $100!

Unbelievably lame.

And when conservatives say the exact same thing to women liberals then say they hate women.

So why do you hate men?

Heh. Women have choices after the fact. Men do not.

Mere biology & modern medicine.

 

[Atreus21]

Yet the mother is able to terminate that fetus for any reason or no reason under that same law. Unless there is a law that permits that for actual children I would say it's pretty obvious that they aren't viewed the same.

...yet fetal homicide bears the same penalty as adult homicide. Your example backs up your contention and my example backs up mine.

Secondly, your claim that they aren't viewed the same is grounded in the clinic fire situation, which isn't analogous to an abortion situation such as you describe.

 

[fskimospy]

...yet fetal homicide bears the same penalty as adult homicide. Your example backs up your contention and my example backs up mine.

Uhmm, how? Are you saying there are laws under which a mother can decide to kill her children for any reason or no reason and not be prosecuted for homicide? If you can't, then it's pretty obvious that my example shows that they aren't the same.

Secondly, your claim that they aren't viewed the same is grounded in the clinic fire situation, which isn't analogous to an abortion situation such as you describe.

My claim they aren't viewed as the same comes from the incontrovertible fact that a mother can destroy a fetus at will up to a certain time period and cannot do so with a child. That's about as clear an example that they aren't the same under the law as it gets.

To be clear, the clinic fire example isn't meant to show how they aren't the same under the law, it's to show that literally no one, including pro-life people, actually thinks they are the same in any sense, legal or otherwise.

 

[Texashiker]

The responsibility of choice.

Quoted for the lulz.

Abortion allows women to avoid responsibility.

 

[nehalem256]

Quoted for the lulz.

Abortion allows women to avoid responsibility.

The lulz is liberals complaining women have to bare the burden of the "responsibility of choice".

If its really such a burden then maybe we should have someone take on that burden for them?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Quoted for the lulz.

Abortion allows women to avoid responsibility.

Not allowing abortions ensure men will be responsible for the support of their child and if they choose not to support the child they can spend some time in prison to think about their responsibility.

 

[Texashiker]

Not allowing abortions ensure men will be responsible for the support of their child and if they choose not to support the child they can spend some time in prison to think about their responsibility.

As long as the mothers are held to the same standard of responsibility, I am fine with that.

But we all know that will never happen.

 

[Atreus21]

Uhmm, how? Are you saying there are laws under which a mother can decide to kill her children for any reason or no reason and not be prosecuted for homicide? If you can't, then it's pretty obvious that my example shows that they aren't the same.

Are you saying that there are no fetal homicide laws?

My claim they aren't viewed as the same comes from the incontrovertible fact that a mother can destroy a fetus at will up to a certain time period and cannot do so with a child. That's about as clear an example that they aren't the same under the law as it gets.

A mother can, yes. An attacker can't. They are the same under the law in some circumstances and not in others.

To be clear, the clinic fire example isn't meant to show how they aren't the same under the law, it's to show that literally no one, including pro-life people, actually thinks they are the same in any sense, legal or otherwise.

I agree, they're not the same. But does that mean we can kill them because we feel like it?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

As long as the mothers are held to the same standard of responsibility, I am fine with that.

But we all know that will never happen.

Sure it happens, though chances are the woman will have custody so the man is required to pay child support. There are men that have custody of their children and the woman is tasked with paying child support.

 

[fskimospy]

Are you saying that there are no fetal homicide laws?

A mother can, yes. An attacker can't. They are the same under the law in some circumstances and not in others.

Which makes them... not the same. All people are equally protected by laws that prevent others from injuring or killing them. Fetuses have lesser protection under the law because they are not considered people in the same way, legally.

I agree, they're not the same. But does that mean we can kill them because we feel like it?

As we've discussed before, their value to us is so enormously less than that of a child that I find even attempting to equate the two insulting to children everywhere.

 

[nehalem256]

Sure it happens, though chances are the woman will have custody so the man is required to pay child support. There are men that have custody of their children and the woman is tasked with paying child support.

Funny. I take it you haven't seen actual judge orders in which men have custody of their children.

But I have and the mother very clearly was not tasked with paying child support.

 

[Texashiker]

There are men that have custody of their children and the woman is tasked with paying child support.

However, across the board women receive lighter sentences and spend less time in jail as compared to men.

That is for all crimes and not just child support.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Funny. I take it you haven't seen actual judge orders in which men have custody of their children.

But I have and the mother very clearly was not tasked with paying child support.

I have a neighbor that has custody of his children and gets child support from the mother. She makes almost twice as much as he does.

 

[Atreus21]

Which makes them... not the same. All people are equally protected by laws that prevent others from injuring or killing them. Fetuses have lesser protection under the law because they are not considered people in the same way, legally.

Lesser protection. Not completely non-existent protection, as you imply below.

As we've discussed before, their value to us is so enormously less than that of a child that I find even attempting to equate the two insulting to children everywhere.

Apparently it's not enormously less. You can be jailed for murder for killing a child in utero if you're not the mother.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

However, across the board women receive lighter sentences and spend less time in jail as compared to men.

That is for all crimes and not just child support.

Right, women never get long sentences or life in prison.

 

[fskimospy]

Lesser protection. Not completely non-existent protection, as you imply below.

I didn't imply non-existent protection.

Apparently it's not enormously less. You can be jailed for murder for killing a child in utero if you're not the mother.

You're mixing up legal and personal views here. As I said, the fertility clinic fire is an example of how much less we all view embryos than children. We would all sacrifice millions or even billions of them if it meant saving a baby.

I do agree, btw, that the value of a baby to all of us increases as it becomes more fully formed. Once it is able to survive on its own to me it is quite hard to justify an abortion. Before that, not hard at all.

 

[Atreus21]

We would all sacrifice millions or even billions of them if it meant saving a baby.

And we wouldn't outside of a situation forcing us to choose who lives and who dies.

I do agree, btw, that the value of a baby to all of us increases as it becomes more fully formed. Once it is able to survive on its own to me it is quite hard to justify an abortion. Before that, not hard at all.

What does the baby's ability to survive on its own have to do with whether or not he or she is killable? That seems arbitrary to me.

 

[fskimospy]

What does the baby's ability to survive on its own have to do with whether or not he or she is killable? That seems arbitrary to me.

Arbitrary means that it's decided based on a whim or random choice. Saying that a woman's right to her body trumps that of a fetus until the fetus can live without her help is certainly neither of those.