Teacher pulls chair out from under student?

[illusion88]

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

No, punishing him with a research paper does not give him much of a choice. He isn't cutting class, he isn't doing anything WRONG, why should he be punished?

Example
If I go outside and burn the flag that I have hanging in my room, should I be forced to write a paper? Should anything happen to me? No, I am excersing my right to do so.

You're not in school though. You think being disrespectful isn't wrong?

Im sorry I should have been more clear. I am in school, I live in a dorm at Colorado Mountain College, its a public JC.

Do I think being disrespectful is wrong? Yes I do. And I dislike it when people disrespect the flag. But I believe in a persons right to do so. He excercised that right. That is not wrong.

EDIT: got rid of that long quote string

 

[jpeyton]

ATOT has spoken; this teacher is officially retarded. /thread

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: loki8481
from the Supreme Court:

"We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.

We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here is to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority."

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 1943

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624

Like I've said twice in this thread, Constitutional rights are invaded and/or limited in every public school to some degee.

except that this case explicitly involves whether or not a school can force a student to give the pledge.

I guess I'm just failing to see your logic.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: loki8481
except that this case explicitly involves whether or not a school can force a student to give the pledge (or even force a student to stand for the pledge).

I guess I'm just failing to see your logic.

No real logic here... I just want to know where the student's freedom to protest ends... perhaps the trial (if there is one) will enlighten me.

 

[imported_Mike]

Im sorry I should have been more clear. I am in school, I live in a dorm at Colorado Mountain College, its a public JC.

Do I think being disrespectful is wrong? Yes I do. And I dislike it when people disrespect the flag. But I believe in a persons right to do so. He excercised that right. That is not wrong.

You just contradicted yourself. WHO ever said that excercising ones rights is wrong? In fact, I said the exact opposite. Does the kid have a right to be disrespectful? Yes he does and he can suffer the consequences to do so. That doesn't mean the teacher can physically abuse the student. The student was disrespectful and he was wrong to do so. He could have shown his beliefs without beind disrespectful but he decided not to.

 

[illusion88]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
Heh, in california (santa rosa) we never saw our right to protest infringed. We held numerous protests throughout my high school years. What they were about or how well they worked is of no consequence, the point is we were never stopped. If there were consequences we accepted them (ie. cutting class cause of a walk out). The school held multiple anti-war protests when we started bombing Iraq, and these where school funded events. We had on duty staff members and chaperones.

Methinks that there is a difference between a planned (and school administered) protest and a kid being dis-respectful in class.

True. There is. But the scale of the "protest" doesn't diminish his right to excersice it. I only brought up that example to provide a little background to my public school knowledge. It was in response to daniel1113's coment about the school revoking his right to protest.

I am daniel1113 🙂

That's all fine and dandy, but what are the limits to this freedom? Are there any in a public school environment?

I'm Sure there is. I don't know for sure but I am willing to bet it is cut at beign disruptive. Does sitting when everyone else stands disrupt the class or the saying of the national anthem. No.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: illusion88
I'm Sure there is. I don't know for sure but I am willing to bet it is cut at beign disruptive. Does sitting when everyone else stands disrupt the class or the saying of the national anthem. No.

I agree. It's silly, but not wrong; disrespectful to the teacher (not to the anthem), but not disruptive.

 

[illusion88]

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Im sorry I should have been more clear. I am in school, I live in a dorm at Colorado Mountain College, its a public JC.

Do I think being disrespectful is wrong? Yes I do. And I dislike it when people disrespect the flag. But I believe in a persons right to do so. He excercised that right. That is not wrong.

You just contradicted yourself. WHO ever said that excercising ones rights is wrong? In fact, I said the exact opposite. Does the kid have a right to be disrespectful? Yes he does and he can suffer the consequences to do so. That doesn't mean the teacher can physically abuse the student. The student was disrespectful and he was wrong to do so. He could have shown his beliefs without beind disrespectful but he decided not to.

Why is that wrong? Why should he be punished? He excercised a non-orthadox believe by not standing for the national anthem. Thats all he did. loki8481 mentioned earlier that the teacher can not force the pledge on the student.

 

[JoeKing]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
I'm Sure there is. I don't know for sure but I am willing to bet it is cut at beign disruptive. Does sitting when everyone else stands disrupt the class or the saying of the national anthem. No.

I agree. It's silly, but not wrong; disrespectful to the teacher (not to the anthem), but not disruptive.

How about the video taping that at least the people in the boys immediate area were aware of. And most probably the majority of the class is aware of? Wouldn't you call that disruptive or can we all suddenly bring in video cameras, boom boxes, TVs to school. Allowing them to run in class whenever we feel like it?

 

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Im sorry I should have been more clear. I am in school, I live in a dorm at Colorado Mountain College, its a public JC.

Do I think being disrespectful is wrong? Yes I do. And I dislike it when people disrespect the flag. But I believe in a persons right to do so. He excercised that right. That is not wrong.

You just contradicted yourself. WHO ever said that excercising ones rights is wrong? In fact, I said the exact opposite. Does the kid have a right to be disrespectful? Yes he does and he can suffer the consequences to do so. That doesn't mean the teacher can physically abuse the student. The student was disrespectful and he was wrong to do so. He could have shown his beliefs without beind disrespectful but he decided not to.

Why is that wrong? Why should he be punished? He excercised a non-orthadox believe by not standing for the national anthem. Thats all he did. loki8481 mentioned earlier that the teacher can not force the pledge on the student.

He is being disrespectful to the flag which even you said you hate. Saying the pledge and standing while everyone else is doing so are completely different.

He excercised a non-orthadox believe by not standing for the national anthem

So you don't think this is disrespectful?

 

[illusion88]

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Im sorry I should have been more clear. I am in school, I live in a dorm at Colorado Mountain College, its a public JC.

Do I think being disrespectful is wrong? Yes I do. And I dislike it when people disrespect the flag. But I believe in a persons right to do so. He excercised that right. That is not wrong.

You just contradicted yourself. WHO ever said that excercising ones rights is wrong? In fact, I said the exact opposite. Does the kid have a right to be disrespectful? Yes he does and he can suffer the consequences to do so. That doesn't mean the teacher can physically abuse the student. The student was disrespectful and he was wrong to do so. He could have shown his beliefs without beind disrespectful but he decided not to.

Why is that wrong? Why should he be punished? He excercised a non-orthadox believe by not standing for the national anthem. Thats all he did. loki8481 mentioned earlier that the teacher can not force the pledge on the student.

He is being disrespectful to the flag which even you said you hate. Saying the pledge and standing while everyone else is doing so are completely different.

He excercised a non-orthadox believe by not standing for the national anthem

So you don't think this is disrespectful?

First off I said I dislike, not hate. There is a difference in the severity.
Second, it doesnt matter if I aprove of his actions or not. That doesn't change a danm thing. It was his right to do so. That should not be curtailed by the teacher.

Just because I dislike it when people don't stand up for the national anthem doesn't mean I am going to stop them from doing so. They have their rights, as I have mine.

EDIT: I would love to stay up and debate this with you more, but i have a test to wake up for in a few hours.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: illusion88
EDIT: I would love to stay up and debate this with you more, but i have a test to wake up for in a few hours.

You too? Hehe... I should probably hit the hay as well.

 

[imported_Mike]

You liking, disliking, hating, loving is really irrelavent to my point. I think you should re-read through are conversation.

right to do something != everything is A oK

We all have the right to do a lot of things, that doesn't mean some of them aren't wrong.

 

[TwiceOver]

For those ATOT'ers in NJ, I feel bad. The reason is that in this day (The age of the lawsuit) I hope that kids parents sue the school. If that fvcker did that to my kid I wouldn't rest till his ass was fired. He has no right to discipline my kid... I DO!

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: TwiceOver
For those ATOT'ers in NJ, I feel bad. The reason is that in this day (The age of the lawsuit) I hope that kids parents sue the school. If that fvcker did that to my kid I wouldn't rest till his ass was fired. He has no right to discipline my kid... I DO!

The problem with that is that you don't discipline your kids. Maybe not you yourself but a majority of these parents nowadays have no right to be parents. They send there retarded kids off to school and don't give two sh1ts as to how they act. Personnally I feel the teacher shouldn't have pulled the chair but he could have sent the kid to the office.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: TwiceOver
For those ATOT'ers in NJ, I feel bad. The reason is that in this day (The age of the lawsuit) I hope that kids parents sue the school. If that fvcker did that to my kid I wouldn't rest till his ass was fired. He has no right to discipline my kid... I DO!

The problem with that is that you don't discipline your kids. Maybe not you yourself but a majority of these parents nowadays have no right to be parents. They send there retarded kids off to school and don't give two sh1ts as to how they act. Personnally I feel the teacher shouldn't have pulled the chair but he could have sent the kid to the office.

the teacher was stupid. punishing a student for refusing to stand during the pledge of alligiance is a violation of the student's first amendment rights (see above for Supreme Court case that explicitly relates to saying the pledge in the classroom).

 

[TwiceOver]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: TwiceOver
For those ATOT'ers in NJ, I feel bad. The reason is that in this day (The age of the lawsuit) I hope that kids parents sue the school. If that fvcker did that to my kid I wouldn't rest till his ass was fired. He has no right to discipline my kid... I DO!

The problem with that is that you don't discipline your kids. Maybe not you yourself but a majority of these parents nowadays have no right to be parents. They send there retarded kids off to school and don't give two sh1ts as to how they act. Personnally I feel the teacher shouldn't have pulled the chair but he could have sent the kid to the office.

<Insert Response Here> I typed a big response but for some reason there was an error and it didn't go.

 

[RaistlinZ]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: TwiceOver
For those ATOT'ers in NJ, I feel bad. The reason is that in this day (The age of the lawsuit) I hope that kids parents sue the school. If that fvcker did that to my kid I wouldn't rest till his ass was fired. He has no right to discipline my kid... I DO!

The problem with that is that you don't discipline your kids. Maybe not you yourself but a majority of these parents nowadays have no right to be parents. They send there retarded kids off to school and don't give two sh1ts as to how they act. Personnally I feel the teacher shouldn't have pulled the chair but he could have sent the kid to the office.

^ But that's basically the same thing as pulling the chair out from under him.

You're discriminating against and disciplining the kid for exercising his rights.

What the teacher should have done was go on with the pledge and paid no attention to the kid at all. Having the majority of the class despise him for not standing is probably punishment enough. All the teacher did was make the situation worse.

 

[Wadded Beef]

When you're at school, you show respect when respect is due, or you pay the consequences. Simple.[/quote]

The teacher deserves no respect.

 

[amol]

WTF? What's with all the no answers???

I would have voted "HELL YES", but there was no choice for that

 

[BigJ]

In my old HS, during the pledge everyone was silent. If you didn't agree with it, you sat quietly or left the room until it was over.

That being said, the teacher is an ass-gnome. Hopefully he'll be reprimanded. I don't agree with what the student chose to do, but it's his right not to stand during the pledge.

Talk about being disrespectful? I think the kids talking and goofing around are being many times more disrespectful than the student sitting there doing nothing.

 

[Wadded Beef]

Originally posted by: BigJ
In my old HS, during the pledge everyone was silent. If you didn't agree with it, you sat quietly or left the room until it was over.

That being said, the teacher is an ass-gnome. Hopefully he'll be reprimanded. I don't agree with what the student chose to do, but it's his right not to stand during the pledge.

Talk about being disrespectful? I think the kids talking and goofing around are being many times more disrespectful than the student sitting there doing nothing.

here here!

 

[Forsythe]

Hooray for brainwash...

 

[syadnom]

the pulling of the chair may not have been 'violence', but i certainly was the threat of it. ANYONE who does this to another person is noing through disrespect that is owed and through physical aggression. also, the teacher behaved in an unprofessional manner and should be 'corrected', like probation but no actual punishment unless this is a reoccuring issue.

i do think that kids have a respect issue in this country, BUT, in many many circumstances this disrespect is partially justified because they are not shown respect as people, or as individuals. minors have very little actual rights. the cannot go where they wish when then wish even when an adult may. they are not able to excersize their right to freedom of speech. kids often are subject to curfews that have no consitutional basis whatsoever, in fact that pretty blatantly contradict a persons right to freedom.

parents are responsible for their kids actions and should be held to that, but the state should not have such rules that restrict freedom because of age.

i myself felt very repressed during my teen years. and i have not gained wisdom to see the error of my ways in past years, i am now just agrivated by how i was treated.

--

back on to the subject. the teacher was out of line. he had no right to yell at those kids and treat them like subordinates. he had no right to raise his voice and yell at them.

also, i think the kids had every right to seek evidence of this and theirfor could tape the teacher. i think that should be limited to not being able to release the footage outside of the school principals office, their parents, or a court(as in not to the general public)

freedom of the press does not require a registration or a badge

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
But shouldnt it be your right to not show respect? I mean sh!t we can burn the mother fvcking flag. Thats been to the supreme court and was shot down. The kid has a right to choose to sit or stand. If doesnt want to show respect he shouldnt have to.

I think students should also have the right not to attend class... after all, it's a free country.

When you're at school, you show respect when respect is due, or you pay the consequences. Simple.

Such as being physically abused?

Definitely not. The teacher completely mishandled the situation, but I don't think the student was correct either.

I see no reason why the teacher shouldn't have stopped the class for a discussion regarding the pledge, starting with a question directed at that specific student.

Of course, if I were in charge of education, I would have no problem backhanding a student every so often 😀

Yet you'd probably insist on them getting suspended when they retaliated and beat your skinny punk ass.

You can't force anybody to have respect only to put on a facade of showing respect.