Teacher pulls chair out from under student?

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
But shouldnt it be your right to not show respect? I mean sh!t we can burn the mother fvcking flag. Thats been to the supreme court and was shot down. The kid has a right to choose to sit or stand. If doesnt want to show respect he shouldnt have to.

I think students should also have the right not to attend class... after all, it's a free country.

When you're at school, you show respect when respect is due, or you pay the consequences. Simple.

Such as being physically abused?

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
rather than use physical force to enforce an arbitrary symbolic gesture of "respect" for something that is in that child's rights to not respect, the teacher (whose job is to TEACH, not bully) would have been far better served by explaining to the child WHY he might consider respecting the flag, and then let him draw his own conclusions and act upon them accordingly. you can't just say, "you have to do this because we say so," and expect that to result in a profound respect for anything other than authoritarian muscle.

Yep. 🙂

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse
You don't have to recite the pledge but at least stand to show respect...

You know I totally agree with you.

But shouldnt it be your right to not show respect? I mean sh!t we can burn the mother fvcking flag. Thats been to the supreme court and was shot down. The kid has a right to choose to sit or stand. If doesnt want to show respect he shouldnt have to.

I don't think it is about rights, its about respect or the lack there of in this case.

See here is where we disagree. I believe that it is about his right to show respect for the flag. If he doesn't want to, for whatever reason be it politically motivated or not, he shouldn't have to. I believe that the teacher was in the wrong here, he should have realised that the kid had a right to sit down.

Precisely.

 

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse
You don't have to recite the pledge but at least stand to show respect...

You know I totally agree with you.

But shouldnt it be your right to not show respect? I mean sh!t we can burn the mother fvcking flag. Thats been to the supreme court and was shot down. The kid has a right to choose to sit or stand. If doesnt want to show respect he shouldnt have to.

I don't think it is about rights, its about respect or the lack there of in this case.

See here is where we disagree. I believe that it is about his right to show respect for the flag. If he doesn't want to, for whatever reason be it politically motivated or not, he shouldn't have to. I believe that the teacher was in the wrong here, he should have realised that the kid had a right to sit down.

Im not saying the teacher was in the right, the kid does have a right to sit down and the teacher should have made him do a research paper about respect instead b/c the teacher has that right too.

 

[nageov3t]

woohoo!

why try to use the incident to provoke discussion and perhaps teach the students something about respect, when you can just use physical violence? great lesson!

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
But shouldnt it be your right to not show respect? I mean sh!t we can burn the mother fvcking flag. Thats been to the supreme court and was shot down. The kid has a right to choose to sit or stand. If doesnt want to show respect he shouldnt have to.

I think students should also have the right not to attend class... after all, it's a free country.

When you're at school, you show respect when respect is due, or you pay the consequences. Simple.

Such as being physically abused?

Definitely not. The teacher completely mishandled the situation, but I don't think the student was correct either.

I see no reason why the teacher shouldn't have stopped the class for a discussion regarding the pledge, starting with a question directed at that specific student.

Of course, if I were in charge of education, I would have no problem backhanding a student every so often 😀

 

[JoeKing]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
rather than use physical force to enforce an arbitrary symbolic gesture of "respect" for something that is in that child's rights to not respect, the teacher (whose job is to TEACH, not bully) would have been far better served by explaining to the child WHY he might consider respecting the flag, and then let him draw his own conclusions and act upon them accordingly. you can't just say, "you have to do this because we say so," and expect that to result in a profound respect for anything other than authoritarian muscle.

"Ok little 16 year old Billy, I want you to be proud of our country and show..."

kids snicker as they tape

"show respect to our coun..."

more snickers "I don't like this country"

"country. For all of the people that die..."

cough snicker cough. "bullshit I don't care about people that are dead" class giggles, some kid yells "yeah a-hole"

"died for the freedoms you enjoy today"

hahaha fvck you old man you don't have a right to tell me what I have to respect and what I don't I don't need this! I only wanna look cool to my friends cause that's the whole world to me. I'm leaving and bitching to my parents, and they'll agree with me that the free babysitter (you) can't take care of me and the 25 other kids in shop class. Yah I'm cool. I'm walking out. I'm slamming the door.
//end

btw I have taught high school classes. Have you?

 

[illusion88]

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse
You don't have to recite the pledge but at least stand to show respect...

You know I totally agree with you.

But shouldnt it be your right to not show respect? I mean sh!t we can burn the mother fvcking flag. Thats been to the supreme court and was shot down. The kid has a right to choose to sit or stand. If doesnt want to show respect he shouldnt have to.

I don't think it is about rights, its about respect or the lack there of in this case.

See here is where we disagree. I believe that it is about his right to show respect for the flag. If he doesn't want to, for whatever reason be it politically motivated or not, he shouldn't have to. I believe that the teacher was in the wrong here, he should have realised that the kid had a right to sit down.

Im not saying the teacher was in the right, the kid does have a right to sit down and the teacher should have made him do a research paper about respect instead b/c the teacher has that right too.

See your still punishing the kid for sitting down. Thats wrong in my opinion. He shouldn't be punished for exercising his right to protest. Even if the kid wasn't politically motivated he still has a right to sit down and he excerised that right. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: illusion88
See your still punishing the kid for sitting down. Thats wrong in my opinion. He shouldn't be punished for exercising his right to protest. Even if the kid wasn't politically motivated he still has a right to sit down and he excerised that right. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

His right to protest was revoked the moment he walked into that classroom. That is the state of public education today. Sad, eh?

 

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse
You don't have to recite the pledge but at least stand to show respect...

You know I totally agree with you.

But shouldnt it be your right to not show respect? I mean sh!t we can burn the mother fvcking flag. Thats been to the supreme court and was shot down. The kid has a right to choose to sit or stand. If doesnt want to show respect he shouldnt have to.

I don't think it is about rights, its about respect or the lack there of in this case.

See here is where we disagree. I believe that it is about his right to show respect for the flag. If he doesn't want to, for whatever reason be it politically motivated or not, he shouldn't have to. I believe that the teacher was in the wrong here, he should have realised that the kid had a right to sit down.

Im not saying the teacher was in the right, the kid does have a right to sit down and the teacher should have made him do a research paper about respect instead b/c the teacher has that right too.

See your still punishing the kid for sitting down. Thats wrong in my opinion. He shouldn't be punished for exercising his right to protest. Even if the kid wasn't politically motivated he still has a right to sit down and he excerised that right. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Um, physically(at least potentially) hurting a child and exercising your right as a teacher to ...teach a lesson is very different. A research paper would be just the way to do so. Yes the kid has rights, and there are consequences for those...that is life.

The kid has a right to skip school but he will be punished for that...are you against that as well?

 

[illusion88]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
See your still punishing the kid for sitting down. Thats wrong in my opinion. He shouldn't be punished for exercising his right to protest. Even if the kid wasn't politically motivated he still has a right to sit down and he excerised that right. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

His right to protest was revoked the moment he walked into that classroom. That is the state of public education today. Sad, eh?

Heh, in california (santa rosa) we never saw our right to protest infringed. We held numerous protests throughout my high school years. What they were about or how well they worked is of no consequence, the point is we were never stopped. If there were consequences we accepted them (ie. cutting class cause of a walk out). The school held multiple anti-war protests when we started bombing Iraq, and these where school funded events. We had on duty staff members and chaperones.

 

[weirdichi]

OMG@

How messed up! *shakes head*

 

[PowerMac4Ever]

The kid was probably being a punk, but the teacher is 100% in the wrong here. There's no justification for that kind of physical violence even though it "feels right." Dumbass teacher should get suspended.

 

[JoeKing]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
See your still punishing the kid for sitting down. Thats wrong in my opinion. He shouldn't be punished for exercising his right to protest. Even if the kid wasn't politically motivated he still has a right to sit down and he excerised that right. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

His right to protest was revoked the moment he walked into that classroom. That is the state of public education today. Sad, eh?

What about the right of the other students to learn in a non disruptive enviroment? Did you guys listen to what else was going on in that class. Kids tapeing, making faces into the camera, yelling "WUH!!", making noises, after the teacher is already yelling. This guy obviously doesn't have control of his class. Maybe it's his ffault as a poor teacher.

But what I'm willing to bet without doing any background research is this is a soph or Jr class. Either a workshop or remedial math or history class.

I came into this thread expecting the kid to fall and seriously hut himself. But what I saw it the kid was watching the teacher the whole time. He never touched the floor, and was never in danger of hitting the ground. Notice how quickly he stands up. Then notice as he leaves the amount of profanity he uses? Would a peaceful protester react in such a way?

I don't wanna sound like I'm 100% agreeing with the teacher. But I will defend him. What else could he have done? I would have sent him to the office to protest there. But by the looks of the class, and the way they treat the teacher, he would have had to send half the class to the office.

I just wonder how many high schoolers are replying to this thread right now. I've found they have the most amazing selective memory/hearing around!

 

[OverVolt]

His conduct was in the wrong, and its BS that the school hasn't taken any action.

Telling students to "shut your mouths" is disrepectful to them, so why exactly is he forcing the students to show respect by standing up during the national anthem, if he can't even respect his students? he was wayy too aggressive as a teacher, way out of line. They had done nothing wrong, since it was the very beginning of class, the teacher was the one who escalated the situation by saying "damn right i am" and then taking the chair away, the student wasn't aggresive at all on the other hand, and quietly said he didn't want to stand. I think the disruptive environment does stem from the teacher not having control, and also making an ass out of himself and so they exploit it.

I wonder if its the school policy to sing the national anthem every class.

Also, the teacher should just discipline the student instead of creating a situation, IE "you don't want to stand up? fine you have 5days detention." ect. Then if the student felt the punishment violated his rights he could have taken it up with the principle. (i probably would)

Versus "damn straight, you better stand up" *rips chair from under the student*

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: illusion88
Heh, in california (santa rosa) we never saw our right to protest infringed. We held numerous protests throughout my high school years. What they were about or how well they worked is of no consequence, the point is we were never stopped. If there were consequences we accepted them (ie. cutting class cause of a walk out). The school held multiple anti-war protests when we started bombing Iraq, and these where school funded events. We had on duty staff members and chaperones.

Methinks that there is a difference between a planned (and school administered) protest and a kid being dis-respectful in class.

 

[illusion88]

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse
You don't have to recite the pledge but at least stand to show respect...

You know I totally agree with you.

But shouldnt it be your right to not show respect? I mean sh!t we can burn the mother fvcking flag. Thats been to the supreme court and was shot down. The kid has a right to choose to sit or stand. If doesnt want to show respect he shouldnt have to.

I don't think it is about rights, its about respect or the lack there of in this case.

See here is where we disagree. I believe that it is about his right to show respect for the flag. If he doesn't want to, for whatever reason be it politically motivated or not, he shouldn't have to. I believe that the teacher was in the wrong here, he should have realised that the kid had a right to sit down.

Im not saying the teacher was in the right, the kid does have a right to sit down and the teacher should have made him do a research paper about respect instead b/c the teacher has that right too.

See your still punishing the kid for sitting down. Thats wrong in my opinion. He shouldn't be punished for exercising his right to protest. Even if the kid wasn't politically motivated he still has a right to sit down and he excerised that right. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Um, physically(at least potentially) hurting a child and exercising your right as a teacher to ...teach a lesson is very different. A research paper would be just the way to do so. Yes the kid has rights, and there are consequences for those...that is life.

I mean you could go on and on...the kid has a right to skip school but he will be punished for that...are you against that as well?

No, punishing him with a research paper does not give him much of a choice. He isn't cutting class, he isn't doing anything WRONG, why should he be punished?

Example
If I go outside and burn the flag that I have hanging in my room, should I be forced to write a paper? Should anything happen to me? No, I am excersing my right to do so.

 

[nageov3t]

from the Supreme Court:

"We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.

We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here is to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority."

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 1943

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624

 

[imported_Mike]

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: CheapArse
You don't have to recite the pledge but at least stand to show respect...

You know I totally agree with you.

But shouldnt it be your right to not show respect? I mean sh!t we can burn the mother fvcking flag. Thats been to the supreme court and was shot down. The kid has a right to choose to sit or stand. If doesnt want to show respect he shouldnt have to.

I don't think it is about rights, its about respect or the lack there of in this case.

See here is where we disagree. I believe that it is about his right to show respect for the flag. If he doesn't want to, for whatever reason be it politically motivated or not, he shouldn't have to. I believe that the teacher was in the wrong here, he should have realised that the kid had a right to sit down.

Im not saying the teacher was in the right, the kid does have a right to sit down and the teacher should have made him do a research paper about respect instead b/c the teacher has that right too.

See your still punishing the kid for sitting down. Thats wrong in my opinion. He shouldn't be punished for exercising his right to protest. Even if the kid wasn't politically motivated he still has a right to sit down and he excerised that right. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Um, physically(at least potentially) hurting a child and exercising your right as a teacher to ...teach a lesson is very different. A research paper would be just the way to do so. Yes the kid has rights, and there are consequences for those...that is life.

I mean you could go on and on...the kid has a right to skip school but he will be punished for that...are you against that as well?

No, punishing him with a research paper does not give him much of a choice. He isn't cutting class, he isn't doing anything WRONG, why should he be punished?

Example
If I go outside and burn the flag that I have hanging in my room, should I be forced to write a paper? Should anything happen to me? No, I am excersing my right to do so.

You're not in school though. You think being disrespectful isn't wrong?

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: loki8481
from the Supreme Court:

"We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.

We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here is to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority."

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 1943

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624

Like I've said twice in this thread, Constitutional rights are invaded and/or limited in every public school to some degee.

 

[RaistlinZ]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
See your still punishing the kid for sitting down. Thats wrong in my opinion. He shouldn't be punished for exercising his right to protest. Even if the kid wasn't politically motivated he still has a right to sit down and he excerised that right. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

His right to protest was revoked the moment he walked into that classroom. That is the state of public education today. Sad, eh?

No, it was not. If this case were to be taken to the Supreme Court I am 100% confident they would find in favor of the student. You do not and should not lose your rights just by walking into a classroom.

Yes, many people have fought and died for this kid's freedom, but they also died for his right to exercise is own political beliefs.

I love my country, America, but I would rather be suspended from school than to be physically forced to stand for the pledge of allegiance to ANY country.

 

[illusion88]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
Heh, in california (santa rosa) we never saw our right to protest infringed. We held numerous protests throughout my high school years. What they were about or how well they worked is of no consequence, the point is we were never stopped. If there were consequences we accepted them (ie. cutting class cause of a walk out). The school held multiple anti-war protests when we started bombing Iraq, and these where school funded events. We had on duty staff members and chaperones.

Methinks that there is a difference between a planned (and school administered) protest and a kid being dis-respectful in class.

True. There is. But the scale of the "protest" doesn't diminish his right to excersice it. I only brought up that example to provide a little background to my public school knowledge. It was in response to daniel1113's coment about the school revoking his right to protest.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: RaistlinZ

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
See your still punishing the kid for sitting down. Thats wrong in my opinion. He shouldn't be punished for exercising his right to protest. Even if the kid wasn't politically motivated he still has a right to sit down and he excerised that right. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

His right to protest was revoked the moment he walked into that classroom. That is the state of public education today. Sad, eh?

No, it was not. If this case were to be taken to the Supreme Court I am 100% confident they would find in favor of the student. You do not and should not lose your rights just by walking into a classroom.

Yes, many people have fought and died for this kid's freedom, but they also died for his right to exercise is own political beliefs.

I love my country, America, but I would rather be suspended from school than to be physically forced to stand for the pledge of allegiance to ANY country.

I never said it was right, I said it was the way it is. Of course he would win in court (especially since the teacher used force) but that doesn't make it right.

Standing != Being in agreeance with
Standing = Respect

The kid made a poor choice, but luckily for him, the teacher made an even more poor of a choice.

 

[JoeKing]

Originally posted by: RaistlinZ

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
See your still punishing the kid for sitting down. Thats wrong in my opinion. He shouldn't be punished for exercising his right to protest. Even if the kid wasn't politically motivated he still has a right to sit down and he excerised that right. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.

His right to protest was revoked the moment he walked into that classroom. That is the state of public education today. Sad, eh?

No, it was not. If this case were to be taken to the Supreme Court I am 100% confident they would find in favor of the student. You do not and should not lose your rights just by walking into a classroom.

Yes, many people have fought and died for this kid's freedom, but they also died for his right to exercise is own political beliefs.

I love my country, America, but I would rather be suspended from school than to be physically forced to stand for the pledge of allegiance to ANY country.

He didn't stand for the pledge. He stood and walked out of the classroom yelling expletives in a very MLK way :roll:

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: illusion88
Heh, in california (santa rosa) we never saw our right to protest infringed. We held numerous protests throughout my high school years. What they were about or how well they worked is of no consequence, the point is we were never stopped. If there were consequences we accepted them (ie. cutting class cause of a walk out). The school held multiple anti-war protests when we started bombing Iraq, and these where school funded events. We had on duty staff members and chaperones.

Methinks that there is a difference between a planned (and school administered) protest and a kid being dis-respectful in class.

True. There is. But the scale of the "protest" doesn't diminish his right to excersice it. I only brought up that example to provide a little background to my public school knowledge. It was in response to daniel1113's coment about the school revoking his right to protest.

I am daniel1113 🙂

That's all fine and dandy, but what are the limits to this freedom? Are there any in a public school environment?