Target to Promote Blu-Ray DVD Format Only In Store

[spacejamz]

Another blow to the HD DVD camp...They still don't get it...They still claim that they sell more HD DVD players because they don't want to count the PS3 as a blu ray player but that is the main reason why HD DVD is losing the format war...

Text

Associated Press
Target to Promote Blu-Ray DVD Format
By GARY GENTILE 07.25.07, 5:31 PM ET


LOS ANGELES - Target Corp., the nation's second-largest retailer, will start selling a Sony Blu-ray high-definition DVD player during the critical holiday shopping period and feature the player along with Blu-ray discs in store displays, dealing a potential blow to the rival HD DVD format.

The move, which the companies will formally announce Thursday, is another step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market.

Target (nyse: TGT - news - people ) said it will sell the Sony (nyse: SNE - news - people ) BDP-S300 for $499 in October and display it along with Blu-ray DVDs from three studios, including Sony Corp. and The Walt Disney Co. (nyse: DIS - news - people ), at the ends of store aisles.

The Target announcement comes five weeks after a decision by video rental chain Blockbuster Inc. (nyse: BBI - news - people ) to offer only Blu-ray titles when it expands its high-def offerings this fall.

Blu-ray is backed by Sony, which developed it. Most Hollywood studios are releasing films either exclusively in Blu-ray or together with the rival HD DVD format, which is backed by its developer, Toshiba Corp. (other-otc: TOSBF.PK - news - people )

Only Universal Studios, a unit of General Electric (nyse: GE - news - people ) Corp., is releasing films exclusively in HD DVD.

Both formats offer a high-definition picture that is crisper and brighter than standard DVDs, as well as more storage that allows interactive features and games to be packaged with movies.

Consumers have been slow to embrace either format, worried they might get stuck with a losing technology.

Target does not sell high-def DVD players in its stores, although it does sell a Toshiba HD DVD player for $299 on its Web site.

Target stores do sell an HD DVD add-on for the Microsoft (nasdaq: MSFT - news - people ) Xbox 360. They also sell Sony Corp.'s PlayStation 3, which comes with a Blu-ray player built in.

Target would not say why it decided to sell only Blu-ray players in stores. Sony is paying a fee to have its products featured in the end-of-aisle display, called an endcap, although Sony executives said the retailer contacted them about the decision.

"We are not proclaiming one format vs. the other as the preferred consumer technology, and software will continue to be available to our guests in both the Blu-ray and HD DVD format," Target spokeswoman Brie Heath said.

Target will track customer feedback and adjust offerings as necessary, Heath said.

The HD DVD camp was not fazed by the Target decision, pointing out that HD DVD players continue to outsell Blu-ray players, which cost at least twice as much. They also point out that HD DVD players and DVDs are featured in endcap displays in Circuit City Stores Inc. (nyse: CC - news - people ) and Best Buy Co. (nyse: BBY - news - people ) locations.

HD DVD promoters also contend that consumers are more influenced by price than product selection.

"HD DVD players are the most affordable," said Ken Graffeo, co-president of the North American HD DVD Promotional Group. "It's one thing to have a player featured, but it's another if it doesn't sell."

While more titles are available in the Blu-ray format, this fall should provide a head-to-head contest between the two formats.

Two blockbuster films - "Spider-Man 3" from Sony and "Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End" from Disney - will be available exclusively on Blu-ray.

The HD DVD camp will be counting on sales of the blockbuster film "300" from Warner Bros., which will be released in both formats, and the first season of the popular sci-fi TV show "Heroes," which will be available exclusively on HD DVD.

AP Business Writer Joshua Freed in Minneapolis contributed to this report.

 

[montypythizzle]

Pirates (of the Carribean....) are going to rape HD-DVD.

 

[dwell]

Hello HD-DED

 

[LegendKiller]

In other news, PS3 still sells under 100k units, 1/2 as much as 360, 1/5th as much as Wii and has still resulted on a massive drain for Sony. Using 20% attachment rate, HD-DVD only needs to sell 20k units this month to match PS3 sales.

Wow, so dead.

How's that $400 BD player going to sell in Target when people see them next to $50 budget players? Target's electronics sales are a pimple on the elephants ass. They have approx. 4% marketshare in the CE sector, of that cameras and TVs are more than 50% of that. Almost all of the rest are in cheaper lower-end stuff like cheaper mp3 players and such, according to their annual reports and the equity analysis I read.

Again, not a huge deal. However, it bothers me that Toshiba and the HD-DVD consortium are letting BDA get sound-bites out like this without answering back.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
In other news, PS3 still sells under 100k units, 1/2 as much as 360, 1/5th as much as Wii and has still resulted on a massive drain for Sony. Using 20% attachment rate, HD-DVD only needs to sell 20k units this month to match PS3 sales.

Wow, so dead.

How's that $400 BD player going to sell in Target when people see them next to $50 budget players? Target's electronics sales are a pimple on the elephants ass. They have approx. 4% marketshare in the CE sector, of that cameras and TVs are more than 50% of that. Almost all of the rest are in cheaper lower-end stuff like cheaper mp3 players and such, according to their annual reports and the equity analysis I read.

Again, not a huge deal. However, it bothers me that Toshiba and the HD-DVD consortium are letting BDA get sound-bites out like this without answering back.

why don't you go back and check your sales figures for the 360 again...ever since Microsoft announce the extension of the 3 year warranty for the RROD issue, sales have dropped.

You accuse everyone of spreading FUD, yet you have no problems spewing your own BS...what a joke....

and what is up with the wii??? Does it output a high definition picture? hell, does even play DVD's??? but if you want to keep comparing apples to oranges, that is your perogrative...

ps...did you get the last memo about your precious netflix??? seems like they are losing members now because they can't compete with Blockbuster's All Access program...How bout them apples???

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: spacejamz

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
In other news, PS3 still sells under 100k units, 1/2 as much as 360, 1/5th as much as Wii and has still resulted on a massive drain for Sony. Using 20% attachment rate, HD-DVD only needs to sell 20k units this month to match PS3 sales.

Wow, so dead.

How's that $400 BD player going to sell in Target when people see them next to $50 budget players? Target's electronics sales are a pimple on the elephants ass. They have approx. 4% marketshare in the CE sector, of that cameras and TVs are more than 50% of that. Almost all of the rest are in cheaper lower-end stuff like cheaper mp3 players and such, according to their annual reports and the equity analysis I read.

Again, not a huge deal. However, it bothers me that Toshiba and the HD-DVD consortium are letting BDA get sound-bites out like this without answering back.

why don't you go back and check your sales figures for the 360 again...ever since Microsoft announce the extension of the 3 year warranty for the RROD issue, sales have dropped.

You accuse everyone of spreading FUD, yet you have no problems spewing your own BS...what a joke....

and what is up with the wii??? Does it output a high definition picture? hell, does even play DVD's??? but if you want to keep comparing apples to oranges, that is your perogrative...

ps...did you get the last memo about your precious netflix??? seems like they are losing members now because they can't compete with Blockbuster's All Access program...How bout them apples???

Go back and check your sales figures for NPD from June. We'll see what July and August look like as it gears up for Halo release. I couldn't care less about Wii, just pointing out how crappy sales are for the PS3. If anything it proves that all-in-one doesn't matter jack-crap to consumers, nor does being able to project an HD image. What matters is price and the fun-factor. Amazingly, HD-DVD has price advantage and you're "wooting" a sale "win" with a discount retailer who will sell a piece of hardware that's anything but a discount oriented product.

It's sad when kids try to play business analyst with people who work in the area. Hey, do you even know the best known equity analyst's name that covers Target Corp? I do, I have the name in my address book, I went to b-school with the person. Did you?

Let's see what happens to BBI when they announce earnings tomorrow, perhaps their membership dropped? Perhaps it raised but profitability dropped and they burned through 40m more in cash like they did last quarter, bringing them in under $200m of cash on-hand, getting them even closer to breaching debt solvency covenants (which leads to bankruptcy). We'll see. Netflix is cutting cost too.

Nice try at distraction though. Good attempt, but you're going to have to do better.

 

[tatteredpotato]

Are they actually going to stock movies though? Last time I was at Target they had about 10 HD DVDs and 10 Blu Ray movies.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: ObscureCaucasian
Are they actually going to stock movies though? Last time I was at Target they had about 10 HD DVDs and 10 Blu Ray movies.

Yeah, they are right next to the budget Philips and Sony dvd players for $50! The close-out 9.99 and 6.99 dvds are in the next shelf over.

Gotta love rubes pimping a news release for a discounter trying to sell high-end CE when they have 4% of the market share. Wow, great job!

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
In other news, PS3 still sells under 100k units, 1/2 as much as 360, 1/5th as much as Wii and has still resulted on a massive drain for Sony. Using 20% attachment rate, HD-DVD only needs to sell 20k units this month to match PS3 sales.

Blu-ray holds near 70% of disc sales.

Wow, so dead.

Yes, very dead

Again, not a huge deal. However, it bothers me that Toshiba and the HD-DVD consortium are letting BDA get sound-bites out like this without answering back.

HD-DVD has nothing to say. They are taking it in the rear, like they dropped a soap in prison. With only one crappy studio supporting them fully, they are circling the drain.

 

[montypythizzle]

I just wish Sony would have taken the HD-DVD name.
Quick, sell the HD-DVD name so you can at least get some money out of the deal!!!

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: spacejamz

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
In other news, PS3 still sells under 100k units, 1/2 as much as 360, 1/5th as much as Wii and has still resulted on a massive drain for Sony. Using 20% attachment rate, HD-DVD only needs to sell 20k units this month to match PS3 sales.

Wow, so dead.

How's that $400 BD player going to sell in Target when people see them next to $50 budget players? Target's electronics sales are a pimple on the elephants ass. They have approx. 4% marketshare in the CE sector, of that cameras and TVs are more than 50% of that. Almost all of the rest are in cheaper lower-end stuff like cheaper mp3 players and such, according to their annual reports and the equity analysis I read.

Again, not a huge deal. However, it bothers me that Toshiba and the HD-DVD consortium are letting BDA get sound-bites out like this without answering back.

why don't you go back and check your sales figures for the 360 again...ever since Microsoft announce the extension of the 3 year warranty for the RROD issue, sales have dropped.

You accuse everyone of spreading FUD, yet you have no problems spewing your own BS...what a joke....

and what is up with the wii??? Does it output a high definition picture? hell, does even play DVD's??? but if you want to keep comparing apples to oranges, that is your perogrative...

ps...did you get the last memo about your precious netflix??? seems like they are losing members now because they can't compete with Blockbuster's All Access program...How bout them apples???

Go back and check your sales figures for NPD from June. We'll see what July and August look like as it gears up for Halo release. I couldn't care less about Wii, just pointing out how crappy sales are for the PS3. If anything it proves that all-in-one doesn't matter jack-crap to consumers, nor does being able to project an HD image. What matters is price and the fun-factor. Amazingly, HD-DVD has price advantage and you're "wooting" a sale "win" with a discount retailer who will sell a piece of hardware that's anything but a discount oriented product.

It's sad when kids try to play business analyst with people who work in the area. Hey, do you even know the best known equity analyst's name that covers Target Corp? I do, I have the name in my address book, I went to b-school with the person. Did you?

Let's see what happens to BBI when they announce earnings tomorrow, perhaps their membership dropped? Perhaps it raised but profitability dropped and they burned through 40m more in cash like they did last quarter, bringing them in under $200m of cash on-hand, getting them even closer to breaching debt solvency covenants (which leads to bankruptcy). We'll see. Netflix is cutting cost too.

Nice try at distraction though. Good attempt, but you're going to have to do better.

Oooohhhh...we are all so impressed by the contacts in your little black book there...like anyone here really cares, but if it makes you feel important, then you are the man!

The handwriting is on the wall but if you choose to ignore it so be it...Blu ray is winning hardware sales, software sales, has more exclusive studio support, more CE support and most importantly, public perception that blu ray is the format of choice because now two major companies have publicly stated who they are backing. I know in your little world that all of this is insigficant (as it is to the HD DVD supporters on the AVS and High Def forums), but to the real world, this is what matters.

You can spit out all of your company performance statistics all you want of how poorly companies that support blu ray are doing, but in the end, nobody cares about those numbers either and it wont justify why HD DVD is losing this war badly...very badly.

As usual, it has been fun discussing this with you...hope you are doing something for your anger management issues...it might come in handy once the plug is pulled on HD DVD...

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: montypythizzle
I just wish Sony would have taken the HD-DVD name.
Quick, sell the HD-DVD name so you can at least get some money out of the deal!!!

No way. 5 syllables are just too much for a movie format, especially ones that really don't flow at all. It's hard to listen to that commercial with Spider (okay, Michael Imperiolli or Christopher if you want). Even if you don't like the name Blu-ray, you've got to admit it rolls off the tongue very easily.

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

HD-DVD has the lowest prices for players between the two.
HD-DVD has better extras (i.e. 300)

It's too early to tell who is going to win. I mean we still have Samsung and LG making dual format players, we have Warner Brothers making a dual format disc. The 360 has more consoles sold than PS3, so can we count that? No we can't due to the fact that to get any high def format you have to buy an HD-DVD player for that. That also means that those that buy the HD-DVD player are actually banking on the format whereas the people buying PS3s are not all buying it because it is a Blu-ray format, they just buy it for that one great game (Resistance: Fall of Men).

 

[Rio Rebel]

It's sad when kids try to play business analyst with people who work in the area. Hey, do you even know the best known equity analyst's name that covers Target Corp? I do, I have the name in my address book, I went to b-school with the person. Did you?

This is hilarious.

Reminds of Dan Akroyd in Trading Places..."He had on my Harvard tie. Like oh, sure, HE went to HARVARD."

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: spacejamz


ps...did you get the last memo about your precious netflix??? seems like they are losing members now because they can't compete with Blockbuster's All Access program...How bout them apples???

Well, I'm probably one of the few who just left BB for Netflix then. Them apples was sour bro Every Blu-Ray movie I queued had a wait on it, most long or very long. I asked here, if Netflix had the same issue, and was told they did not. Joined yesterday, and every Blu-Ray movie I queued was available. :thumbsup: It is $2 less a month, and "I want my $2!"

Total access is great, if you take advantage of the free in-store rental and drop off for immediate movie exchange. I wasn't using it, but on rare occasion, and I'm past the point where returning a movie to a B&M in 2 days, or having to wait weeks for a Blu-ray flick, is unacceptable.

As to the format war, cheap, dual format, players, should resolve the matter. By the time enough homes have HDTVs, the players should also be available. Unlike the beta v. VHS days, I don't see why both formats can't co-exist?

 

[LegendKiller]

BBI increased their subscriber base. However, they lost $34m, as opposed to a profit of $68m last year. Their loss would have been higher if it weren't for a 78m gain on sale, which should be excluded from actual earnings for proper analysis. Thus they realistically lost $112m from continuing operations. That's a $180m flip, ouch.

Rental revenue dropped $38m while merchandise sales dropped 14m.

Same-store revenues dropped.

Cash on-hand has dropped to under $150m, free cash flow was -$60m compared to -39m last year.

They're still heading down. Pretty interesting.

 

[Genx87]

I dont understand peoples fascination with declaring a winner when the fight has barely begun. Right now both formats are a dingleberry on the ass of an ant compared to DVD.

Personally i think people are dismissing the retain rates of HD-DVD and BlueRay and the difference in player sales a little too much.

The PS3 isnt going to make or break BluRay. The stand alone players are.

 

[LegendKiller]

Sony's loss on gaming widened a bit. Their only saving grace was that the foreign exchange rate between the yen and the dollar was much more favorable than predicted. Thus, translated numbers increased. Actual gains in profitability were a result of camera and TV sales, but again, those numbers were primarily driven by currency translation.

What that means is that while our currency plummets their companies appear to profit more, but in actuality, it's not really there. SNE is still sucking wind in it's game divisions on sucky PS3 sales.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Sony's loss on gaming widened a bit. Their only saving grace was that the foreign exchange rate between the yen and the dollar was much more favorable than predicted. Thus, translated numbers increased. Actual gains in profitability were a result of camera and TV sales, but again, those numbers were primarily driven by currency translation.

What that means is that while our currency plummets their companies appear to profit more, but in actuality, it's not really there. SNE is still sucking wind in it's game divisions on sucky PS3 sales.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=631

Xbox division post $1.9 billion loss

This late in the game and they are still bleeding money. They should just cancel the 360 before Bill Gates gets angry.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Sony's loss on gaming widened a bit. Their only saving grace was that the foreign exchange rate between the yen and the dollar was much more favorable than predicted. Thus, translated numbers increased. Actual gains in profitability were a result of camera and TV sales, but again, those numbers were primarily driven by currency translation.

What that means is that while our currency plummets their companies appear to profit more, but in actuality, it's not really there. SNE is still sucking wind in it's game divisions on sucky PS3 sales.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=631

Xbox division post $1.9 billion loss

This late in the game and they are still bleeding money. They should just cancel the 360 before Bill Gates gets angry.

That company makes so much cash, 1.6 billion is probably piss in the wind.
Obviosuly it is, because they keep selling xBox.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Sony's loss on gaming widened a bit. Their only saving grace was that the foreign exchange rate between the yen and the dollar was much more favorable than predicted. Thus, translated numbers increased. Actual gains in profitability were a result of camera and TV sales, but again, those numbers were primarily driven by currency translation.

What that means is that while our currency plummets their companies appear to profit more, but in actuality, it's not really there. SNE is still sucking wind in it's game divisions on sucky PS3 sales.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=631

Xbox division post $1.9 billion loss

This late in the game and they are still bleeding money. They should just cancel the 360 before Bill Gates gets angry.

Do you realize that they have a 33 *billion* dollar portfolio of cash and short-term investments? If they invested that at a 5.7% rate of return, that means in risk-free investments, the return on that alone covers *all* loss from the 360. MSFT has 3x the cash on hand than SNE has ever had and MSFT generates 2x the cash in free-cash flow than SNE annually.

SNE makes 63% more revenue than MSFT, but is 1/12th as profitable. MSFT could give away the 360 add-on and not even feel it.

The big thing here is that MSFTs other lines of business, and the return on the liquidity portfolio, could fund a pure loss on the 360 for a very long time. However, SNE can't afford to take these losses very long.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Do you realize that they have a 33 *billion* dollar portfolio of cash and short-term investments? If they invested that at a 5.7% rate of return, that means in risk-free investments, the return on that alone covers *all* loss from the 360. MSFT has 3x the cash on hand than SNE has ever had and MSFT generates 2x the cash in free-cash flow than SNE annually.

SNE makes 63% more revenue than MSFT, but is 1/12th as profitable. MSFT could give away the 360 add-on and not even feel it.

The big thing here is that MSFTs other lines of business, and the return on the liquidity portfolio, could fund a pure loss on the 360 for a very long time. However, SNE can't afford to take these losses very long.

So with all of your statisics and 'expert' analysis of all things affecting the blu ray/HD DVD format war, can you provide a simple, layman's explanation of HD DVD has lost every week of disk sales this year?

And why at the beginning of the year that HD DVD had a 58.8% lead in disk sales Since Inception (format ware started in April 2006 - blu ray had the other 41.2% share) but now blu ray leads 60% to 40% (nearly a 19% swing in blu ray's favor)...

Disk sales are an important statistic of the format war, are they not? I would assume that studio execs and major retailers look at these numbers to get a feel on what is happening...

As you have stated, I do not understand all of these numbers and what they represent because obviously I am not as smart as you and you are connected to people in the industry, so just a simple little explanation so that I can really understand what is going on with format war would be great...Thanks.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: spacejamz

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Do you realize that they have a 33 *billion* dollar portfolio of cash and short-term investments? If they invested that at a 5.7% rate of return, that means in risk-free investments, the return on that alone covers *all* loss from the 360. MSFT has 3x the cash on hand than SNE has ever had and MSFT generates 2x the cash in free-cash flow than SNE annually.

SNE makes 63% more revenue than MSFT, but is 1/12th as profitable. MSFT could give away the 360 add-on and not even feel it.

The big thing here is that MSFTs other lines of business, and the return on the liquidity portfolio, could fund a pure loss on the 360 for a very long time. However, SNE can't afford to take these losses very long.

So with all of your statisics and 'expert' analysis of all things affecting the blu ray/HD DVD format war, can you provide a simple, layman's explanation of HD DVD has lost every week of disk sales this year?

And why at the beginning of the year that HD DVD had a 58.8% lead in disk sales Since Inception (format ware started in April 2006 - blu ray had the other 41.2% share) but now blu ray leads 60% to 40% (nearly a 19% swing in blu ray's favor)...

Disk sales are an important statistic of the format war, are they not? I would assume that studio execs and major retailers look at these numbers to get a feel on what is happening...

As you have stated, I do not understand all of these numbers and what they represent because obviously I am not as smart as you and you are connected to people in the industry, so just a simple little explanation so that I can really understand what is going on with format war would be great...Thanks.

It's understandable that they do have a sales lead. After all, they do have a 10:1 lead in deployed players. Nobody can refute that. However, due to the 20% attachment rate, you could apply the 1/5th and you'll easily get to your 2:1 sales difference.

THe PS3 surged a huge number of sales onto the market and they have maintained that pace somewhat. However, as sales are flagging they are facing increased pressure to spur PS3 sales, thus the drop in price.

With the 20% attachment rate, that means for June all HD-DVD had to do was sell 20k units to keep the same ratio of disc sales as the PS3. If BDA sold another 20k in stand-alones, then all HD-DVD would have to sell is 40k in stand-alones to match.

Are they selling more than that to beat? Who knows. However, then you need to start looking at what they need to do to *beat* PS3+SA, meaning anything over that 40k rate is going to tilt sales in their favor. Is this happening? Probably not judging by sales figures, however, they are maintaining their current numbers.

What happens if the PS3 doubles sales, as people have said it has? Then HD-DVD needs to increase sales by another 20k players. Is this possible? Certainly, especially at the lower price points and now with the $179 +5 discs free sale with the 360 add-on.

These are things people have said repeatedly, yet you (or others) refuse to take them as sound logic. Why? Because somebody hasn't broken it down like this on cnn.com?

I'm sure you'll just dismiss it, like you have before, because people don't like to hear facts and figures. What's funny is that not one person has provided me with any actual logic or data to refute mine. All they do is stick their fingers in their ears and say "NAH HUH", which is quite humorous because that's how they think debates work.

If you have something to refute my logic, then by all means, present it. I'd love somebody to do so, because that's how you learn.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

When will you people "get it"?

This is not just about the U.S. market, it's an international battle. Target may be a medium-sized chain of U.S. stores, but it's still a local (national if you want) player, with VERY little leverage in the grand scheme of things.

If the French Carrefour, the German Saturn or the British Woolworth's - huge store chains in their own rights - would make a similar move towards HD-DVD, would you say the balance is tipped over? ...Would you even know it?

Take into consideration Europe and Asia before making asinine comments about which format will win.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
could apply the 1/5th and you'll easily get to your 2:1 sales difference.

THe PS3 surged a huge number of sales onto the market and they have maintained that pace somewhat. However, as sales are flagging they are facing increased pressure to spur PS3 sales, thus the drop in price.

With the 20% attachment rate, that means for June all HD-DVD had to do was sell 20k units to keep the same ratio of disc sales as the PS3. If BDA sold another 20k in stand-alones, then all HD-DVD would have to sell is 40k in stand-alones to match.

Are they selling more than that to beat? Who knows. However, then you need to start looking at what they need to do to *beat* PS3+SA, meaning anything over that 40k rate is going to tilt sales in their favor. Is this happening? Probably not judging by sales figures, however, they are maintaining their current numbers.

What happens if the PS3 doubles sales, as people have said it has? Then HD-DVD needs to increase sales by another 20k players. Is this possible? Certainly, especially at the lower price points and now with the $179 +5 discs free sale with the 360 add-on.

These are things people have said repeatedly, yet you (or others) refuse to take them as sound logic. Why? Because somebody hasn't broken it down like this on cnn.com?

I'm sure you'll just dismiss it, like you have before, because people don't like to hear facts and figures. What's funny is that not one person has provided me with any actual logic or data to refute mine. All they do is stick their fingers in their ears and say "NAH HUH", which is quite humorous because that's how they think debates work.

If you have something to refute my logic, then by all means, present it. I'd love somebody to do so, because that's how you learn.

In late May, Toshiba offered a temporary price drop of $100 (which has since become permanent) and they reportedly sold 70K+ standalones. The PS3 price drop did not happen until July so as you constantly remind us, their sales numbers were probably lacking. Yet in June, HD DVD still lost by close to an average of 60:40 in every week after the HD DVD price drop.

Logically, those 70K+ players should have translated into an increase in disk sales for HD DVD but they did not.