Switzerland votes whether to ban Muslim Minarets.

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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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It is called protecting ourselves before they try to do those same actions to us through legislation and threats of violence

That's called Stupid Thinking. You have Freedom or you don't. If the Majority as Non-Muslim has the Right to Oppress the minority, then the Majority as Muslim has the Right to Oppress the Minority. One must choose their Precedence carefully and not have it come full circle to bite it in the ass.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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This thread is moronic. Almost everyone in here is acting like it's reasonable to assume that millions and millions of people all get together and decide what they think, just because they claim the same religion. I have never met any two atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc, who think exactly alike about everything. But apparently summing up what "they" think in a few sentences makes sense when the "they" are hundreds of millions of Muslims.

We don't need a ban on Islam, we need a ban on extremists who think practicing a different religion is sufficient cause to make you their enemy. Which, it goes without saying, could describe quite a few people in THIS thread.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
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This thread is moronic. Almost everyone in here is acting like it's reasonable to assume that millions and millions of people all get together and decide what they think, just because they claim the same religion. I have never met any two atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc, who think exactly alike about everything. But apparently summing up what "they" think in a few sentences makes sense when the "they" are hundreds of millions of Muslims.

We don't need a ban on Islam, we need a ban on extremists who think practicing a different religion is sufficient cause to make you their enemy. Which, it goes without saying, could describe quite a few people in THIS thread.

No, you see, [insert religious group] all practice a religion that is different then [current religion] they are unthinking automatons.

Look at what SamurAchzar says earlier on:
SamurAchzar said:
Vic, what you don't seem to understand is that Islam is not just a religion anymore (in fact, it never has been), but rather it's a religion, political movement and form of government all rolled into one.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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You naivety should surprise me. But then again, you are the guy that thinks the US government orchestrated 9/11. Idiot.
I've studied the major religions of the world, including Islam, formally in college and of my own accord beyond, which is why I can quote Islamic scripture to support my understanding while all you can do is wave your hands. Also, I don't think our government or any other orchestrated 9/11, you fucking moron.

Sure...after you tell me how to differentiate between an Islamist person and an Islamist follower...
He is asking you to differentiate between the religion and the zealots who ignore the tolerance it promotes.

Until the radical Islamists are dealt with by the 'mainstream (majority)' Islamists, the entire world will continue to associate them together and you cannot blame them for that given their violent nature.
Do you associate radical Christians to condemn Christianity as a whole, radical Jews to condemn Judaism as a whole, radical atheists to condemn atheism as a whole, and so on; or are you just making excuses to defend your bigotry against Muslims?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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I've studied the major religions of the world, including Islam, formally in college and of my own accord beyond, which is why I can quote Islamic scripture to support my understanding while all you can do is wave your hands. Also, I don't think our government or any other orchestrated 9/11, you fucking moron.---Just like you think you have aknowledge of physics??? YES-- Sinsear is correct you do think that the fall of WTC was orchestrated by our government. To deny that is to be an out and out liar...I think you need to look in the mirror to see who the moron is...


He is asking you to differentiate between the religion and the zealots who ignore the tolerance it promotes.


Do you associate radical Christians to condemn Christianity as a whole, radical Jews to condemn Judaism as a whole, radical atheists to condemn atheism as a whole, and so on; or are you just making excuses to defend your bigotry against Muslims?-- your examples have nothing to do with the fact thet Christian extremist and Athiest extremist do not strap bomb on to themselves or their loved ones in the name of God...Allah ..etc....

What is sad and I find totally idiotic is those of you who do not understand something has gone terribly wrong with the so called "muslim" religion that pervades society now as opposed to when Second Caliph of Islam was alive......
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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Do you associate radical Christians to condemn Christianity as a whole, radical Jews to condemn Judaism as a whole, radical atheists to condemn atheism as a whole, and so on; or are you just making excuses to defend your bigotry against Muslims?

I don't recall any Radical christians or Jews threatening to kill people over a cartoon.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kylebisme
Do you associate radical Christians to condemn Christianity as a whole, radical Jews to condemn Judaism as a whole, radical atheists to condemn atheism as a whole, and so on; or are you just making excuses to defend your bigotry against Muslims?

I don't recall any Radical christians or Jews threatening to kill people over a cartoon.

You need to remember that Kylebisme is the same guy who started the WTC7 thread...also the same guy who beleieves that our govermnment is responsible for the WTC7 collapse and supposedly has a working knowledge of the physic involved in bringing down WTC7!!! He is also the same person who supposedly studied all these religions in depth......now that is funny...lol
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
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I don't recall any Radical christians or Jews threatening to kill people over a cartoon.


Come on man.. what is wrong with
Threatening to murder a person who made a cartoon?

^^ pfft.. :rolleyes: you can never convince me that someone who made a cartoon about allah or who has some islamic symbol on their shoes etc should not be murdered or boycotted
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
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I don't recall any Radical christians or Jews threatening to kill people over a cartoon.

But they did kill people who didn't believe in their God.

That was a long time ago, but it didn't require the religion to be abolished for it to stop.
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
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The US/Christianity is just used as the scapegoat for the countries problems.

Islam is no more to blame for terrorist acts than Christianity is for Hitler.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
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The US/Christianity is just used as the scapegoat for the countries problems.

Islam is no more to blame for terrorist acts than Christianity is for Hitler.

I am more thankful than I can exclaim that I am not forced at birth to be a muslim or religious follower just because of where I was born and that my government is not ruled by religious extremists

OH.. pretty excited too that I wasn't born female in one of those situations described above
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,085
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I am more thankful than I can exclaim that I am not forced at birth to be a muslim or religious follower just because of where I was born and that my government is not ruled by religious extremists

OH.. pretty excited too that I wasn't born female in one of those situations described above

That determines(minus the Muslim part) practically everyone's Religion.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Just like you think you have aknowledge of physics??? YES-- Sinsear is correct you do think that the fall of WTC was orchestrated by our government. To deny that is to be an out and out liar...I think you need to look in the mirror to see who the moron is...
You are a liar, and a moron.

your examples have nothing to do with the fact thet Christian extremist and Athiest extremist do not strap bomb on to themselves or their loved ones in the name of God...Allah ..etc....
My comment has to do with the fact that violent extremism isn't unique to Muslims. That said, the suicide belt was invented by Tamil Tigers, a terrorist group which includes Christians and atheists, along with Hindus.

Also, "Allah" is just an Arabic term meaning "God". Arabic speaking Christians and Jews use the term too, though Jews not so much since Zionism drove a wedge between Jewish Arabs and their much of their culture.
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
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So was it every Muslim who drove those planes into those buildings or just 19 Muslims who drove those planes into those buildings?

It never ceases to amaze me what people will rationalize by means of irrational generalizations. I met a black guy who stunk once, so all black people smell. 19 Muslims flew planes into buildings once, so Muslims fly planes into buildings. What fun! No need to think critically when you can generalize!

Vic, never thought I'd agree with you on anything, but you seem to be the only voice of reason among the nutters/xenophobes/racists for once. Perhaps veering to the left a little?

I'm curious, what would the same people cheering about the Swiss decision here say if the Swiss govt also decided to ban steeples and crosses and church bells? Let's hear it. How would that be any different except through the distorted lens of religious bigotry? For if just one religion is too dangerous to be allowed, why not ban them all? Eh?

Doesnt sound too bad to me...
 
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Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
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You are probably thinking of the European Court of Human Rights. Switzerland is a part of that. However, the ECHR is hardly a slam-dunk case since they've been criticized by human rights groups for allowing restrictions against religious minorities in Europe.

It may be imperfect but it's a hell of a lot better for these purposes than anything else in existance. In America they simply redefine the words 'freedom' and 'rights' (and possibly 'human') to ensure they're always compliant with their own laws.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
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spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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But they did kill people who didn't believe in their God.

That was a long time ago, but it didn't require the religion to be abolished for it to stop.

So you are saying that the killing of these people back then is the same thing is wanting to kill someone over a cartoon?

I don't know about you, but to me that seems like two very different reasons to kill someone over a 'religious' issue...one is significantly more trivial than the other...
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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We don't need a ban on Islam, we need a ban on extremists who think practicing a different religion is sufficient cause to make you their enemy. Which, it goes without saying, could describe quite a few people in THIS thread.

Why don't the mainstream Islamists take action against these Radicals (who are supposedly the minority) then??? They don't do a damn thing when the radicals kidnap and then chop someone's head for ransom in the name of Allah...they didn't do a damn thing during the uproar over those cartoons in Denmark. They don't do a damn thing when a suicide bomber takes out 50 civilians in the name of their God.

What does their silence mean? Do they secretly agree with the objectives of these radicals? Or do they live in fear of them and take no action because of the possible violence that may happen to them if they speak out against the Radicals?

In either case, unless they actually do something to stop these Radicals from acting in the name of Islam, the entire world will continue to associate all Islamists together. It is a natural human tendency to do so.

Maybe the world is justified in doing this since no Islamlist, radical or or not, seems to be willing to take any decisive action to stop the violence being committed by the Radicals...why cant someone here answer why the mainstream Islamists do nothing about the Radicals instead of making excuses for them? Why???
 

brownzilla786

Senior member
Dec 18, 2005
904
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Why don't the mainstream Islamists take action against these Radicals (who are supposedly the minority) then??? They don't do a damn thing when the radicals kidnap and then chop someone's head for ransom in the name of Allah...they didn't do a damn thing during the uproar over those cartoons in Denmark. They don't do a damn thing when a suicide bomber takes out 50 civilians in the name of their God.

What does their silence mean? Do they secretly agree with the objectives of these radicals? Or do they live in fear of them and take no action because of the possible violence that may happen to them if they speak out against the Radicals?

In either case, unless they actually do something to stop these Radicals from acting in the name of Islam, the entire world will continue to associate all Islamists together. It is a natural human tendency to do so.

Maybe the world is justified in doing this since no Islamlist, radical or or not, seems to be willing to take any decisive action to stop the violence being committed by the Radicals...why cant someone here answer why the mainstream Islamists do nothing about the Radicals instead of making excuses for them? Why???

No, only bigots like you do that. Let me repeat what you are doing in another scenario. At my University there were 3 crimes committed in the past month. All involved black men mugging students. So by your logic, am I allowed to lump those 3 criminals with other black people because, well, the law abiding black people "take any decisive action to stop the violence". Do you see the problem with this?

For arguments sake, lets say that every mainstream muslim in the world openly went on television and wrote articles about how radical Islam is horrible. Do you really think that would make any difference to them? Just look at the Westboro Baptist Church, all of Christianity opposes what they do , and yet they still do it. Mind you they do not kill anyone, but I hope you understand the argument that the moderates rallying against the radicals will prove anything fruitful is silly. As you stated so astutely, "Maybe in ideal world where we can play with the unicorns and never grow old, I suppose I would agree with some of the things you post here."
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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No, only bigots like you do that. Let me repeat what you are doing in another scenario. At my University there were 3 crimes committed in the past month. All involved black men mugging students. So by your logic, am I allowed to lump those 3 criminals with other black people because, well, the law abiding black people "take any decisive action to stop the violence". Do you see the problem with this?

For arguments sake, lets say that every mainstream muslim in the world openly went on television and wrote articles about how radical Islam is horrible. Do you really think that would make any difference to them? Just look at the Westboro Baptist Church, all of Christianity opposes what they do , and yet they still do it. Mind you they do not kill anyone, but I hope you understand the argument that the moderates rallying against the radicals will prove anything fruitful is silly. As you stated so astutely, "Maybe in ideal world where we can play with the unicorns and never grow old, I suppose I would agree with some of the things you post here."

So now race (i.e., being black) = religion (i.e., Islamist) ??? I'm confused...

In the case of Westboro, there are many groups protesting them when they show up at funerals....where is the Muslim protest against the radicals?
 

brownzilla786

Senior member
Dec 18, 2005
904
0
0
So now race (i.e., being black) = religion (i.e., Islamist) ??? I'm confused...

In the case of Westboro, there are many groups protesting them when they show up at funerals....where is the Muslim protest against the radicals?

Unsurprisingly, you missed the key points. Let me lay them out clear for you.
1. Grouping people based on the actions of a few, be it race OR religion, is stupid.
2. The moderate protesting against the radical did not stop the Westboro Baptist Church did it? Now try to connect this with radicalism, do you think the mainstream Muslims protesting against radical Islam will do anything? Think hard for a minute on this one.
 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
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Whatever the differences, you would think that there's something that would be considered sacred between protagonists and antagonists of the same religion, that being their place of worship at the very least. But is this a sign of things to come in Switzerland and other countries with substantial Muslim populations?

Suicide attackers kill 36 at Pakistan mosque

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091204/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

RAWALPINDI, Pakistan – Militants stormed a mosque near Pakistan's army headquarters, killing at least 36 worshippers, including six military officers, during Friday prayers as they sprayed gunfire and threw grenades before blowing themselves up, officials said.

.....
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
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So you are saying that the killing of these people back then is the same thing is wanting to kill someone over a cartoon?

I don't know about you, but to me that seems like two very different reasons to kill someone over a 'religious' issue...one is significantly more trivial than the other...

I guess I have to keep repeating it. The majority of Muslims are in poor countries with little freedom or education... most were the victims of british empire building, and in the last 50 years... since then they have had their dictators propped up by the US and kept poor, ignorant, and hateful by these same dictators.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
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It may be imperfect but it's a hell of a lot better for these purposes than anything else in existance. In America they simply redefine the words 'freedom' and 'rights' (and possibly 'human') to ensure they're always compliant with their own laws.

Imperfect? It's an institution which has supported the oppression of minorities with new definitions of freedom, rights, and human. Likely 50 years from now it will be recognized as a supporter of the upcoming genocide and its judges will be prosecuted as war criminals.

There are lots of things better than the ECHR. For example, putting any issue regarding minority rights outside of the control of Europe itself would be a great improvement. History shows that they cannot be trusted with maintaining the rights, lives, and dignity of minority groups. They only had a full-scale genocide in the last decade and yet we still let them oppress millions within their own borders and billions outside.