It has become a situation for me before and my opinion was that I was not comfortable with it. There are people who are anti-abortion that are rational Red.
I'm glad you were uncomfotable with the idea. I don't like abortions either, and if I were a woman, I could not imagine having one. That's my choice (as given me by the people's front of Judea
). If you're a woman, you can choose not to have an abortion to. No one's forcing women to have abortions (although I can imagine that we could all agree to force abortions on any woman impregnated by Michael Jackson). Edit: Speeling
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
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I understand. I'm not real comfortable with it either but I'm not going to judge another because of the choice they make regarding this situation. I wpould prefer that no one has an abortion. Of course I would also prefer that all babies born in tough situations be taking care of which usually isn't the case. The problem is people are against abortion yet they do nothing for babies born in unfortunate circumstances. It's like they've said their piece and done their part, now let the mothers deal with their own problems
i used to care, but now i just don't anymore. i say us men have no say in it. we should really just let the women duke it out and see what happens, since it is their bodies after all.
instead, us men should focus on teaching kids how having kids can seriously F*CK up their lives and giving beaucoup birth control.
hmm. interesting.
instead, us men should focus on teaching kids how having kids can seriously F*CK up their lives and giving beaucoup birth control.
hmm. interesting.
Umm...no. You're missing the whole point here. I'll leave out the flaming that I could do here, because I'm going to put myself above all of that and have some sort of intelligent conversation here.
That statement you just made their is a gross oversimplification of pro-choice views. Indeed, the word "person" is this context is more of a propaganda word than anything else. The definition in question here is not what is a "person" but where do you draw the line between "fully-living being", perhaps even "viable being", and not.
I'll submit to you that the odds of a first-trimester fetus living outside of the womb rapidly approaches zero. Sure, you may be able to find one or two fetuses that lived born that premature, but that's not the norm. I see no problems with abortions during this period of time. Second trimester, I'll stay out of that debate and maintain a neutral stance for now. Third trimester is illegal in most states, and a ban on abortions in the third trimester was clearly allowed in Roe v. Wade, so there's no issue there.
The problem I see with this Act is that it starts a slippery slope. Sure, it may be well and good in some eyes that we provide medical assistance to unborn babies, but where does this stop? Do we really want the President signing bills into law that flagrantly go against established Supreme Court actions? I hesitate to think of the possibilities. The Supreme Court was specifically designed to prevent the excesses inherent within the executive and legislative branches (due to the 2 branches being elected by the public) and thus provides a buffer against the law going to far. I'm not too sure it's good to give the President leeway to circumvent this delicate check in such a way.
So, it's your job to legislate what you define as God's will? No offense, but our government is not based on theocratic rule; if so, stoning would be a commonplace punishment, etc., etc. And to proselytize to people who want to have an abortion is just plain wrong. Keep your beliefs, I have no problem with that. Just keep your beliefs out of the decisions of others.
Not intentionally, simply trying to restate for clarity...which is not always your strong suit
Then you'll pardon me for my ignorance of that position, since I hadn't seen it before. This is the first abortion thread I recall taking part in on AT.
I don't know if it is academic...because as I understand it, a source of sperm is still required for conception. That in and of itself means that a woman cannot get pregnant on her own.
I can see that being true if the sex is not consensual, but I don't see how that is an answer to consensual sex. I don't believe that a man forfeits all rights about what happens if a pregnancy occurs. In my view, if a man would be responsible for helping support the child were it to be born, then as the father, he has rights as well.
And here I believe you are unfairly singling out one group as the sole problem with abortion, and that if they would somehow get "some sense beaten into them" then everything would be hunky-dory.
"Now we see the violence inherent in the system"
Back to the issue at hand...it is unfair to characterize any particular group of males as the primary driving force in the pro-life movement. This issue splits across gender lines equally.
My wife could probably be termed a Fundamentalist Christian female.
She also happens to be 6 months pregnant with our second child.
Her views (as told to me by her):
"Before I had a child, I was torn on the issue. I prolly felt more strongly that a woman's right about her own body (especially in the case of rape or incest) was more important. But the first time I heard our baby's heartbeat, and felt her kick inside me, and saw her move around, and saw her heart beating, and all of her, I knew that there was no questions she was alive, and a little person."
Like many pregnant women, my wife is VERY sensitive about just anyone touching her stomach (you would not BELIEVE how many complete strangers will just walk up and do that :|). But she is also a teacher, and for the last several weeks, when the baby kicks while she is teaching, a lot of her students...ESPECIALLY the boys....are very curious about it. She has let many of them come up and touch her stomach and feel the baby kick.
Why?
Again, her words:
"I don't like people touching my stomach at all right now. But I want those kids, especially the boys, to KNOW that there is more than a 'thing' inside there. I want them to know that she is ALIVE and maybe it will make them think twice about their actions, and the decisions they make, when they get a little older."
My position on this issue is pretty succinct (even tho my response here hasn't been
), and really can be stated in the following question:Do you think it is OK for a pregnant woman to take drugs (and the issue is not the legality or illegality of the narcotics themselves)?
Altho...honestly...ALL of the above could be put aside for this thread, BECAUSE I still firmly believe that the primary issue raised by this thread, that of the WITHHOLDING OF MEDICAL TREATMENT to a breathing baby outside the mother is a NON-ISSUE. I believe that for most people on either side (or *any* side, if you prefer) of the abortion issue, survival outside the womb of the mother is AUTOMATIC and UNEQUIVOCABLE proof that the child deserves all protections and rights afforded to any person.
I know. Unfortunately, the other civilized nations have serious problems with socialism (though, other than Germany, they all manage to have lower corporate tax rates than us--food for thought).
Very nice post, TallGeese. I really disagree with you only on the point that men should have an equal say. Because they do not carry the baby, they do not have an equal say. They have no say. That is the inevitable consequence of the fact that you are male or female by chance and only half the population can carry a child. Abortion is legal and the male has no say by law. Nobody should have any gripe coming out of a situation where these are the facts going in. That is why I emphasize that if any man is interested in prevention abortion they should devote their efforts to making the science available to carry a fetus to term themselves. Since you never hear that request, you can infer that the issue is really only men's desire for control over women's bodies. Christian Fundamentalism, abortion, the whole ball of wax is in great part about Patriarchy, the psychological need of immature and insecure men to maintain a sense of dominance in sexual relations. Essentially it is bigotry. The greatest horror for the immature male is that he has no control over women. Nowhere is that more obvious than on ATOT.
You have yourself a deal Moonbeam. If you can find an organization that is currently accepting funding to allow this then I will match dollar for dollar any contributions you make up to 1000 dollars. Since you are talking out of your ass as usual you will not find any and you will also not donate any money.
The issue isn't about maintaining control over anyone. It is about allowing a life to continue on in its growth. Maybe deep down you hope and pray that your ideas are sound and logical, but you know they are not. You just hope that you can throw your typical goobedly-beloved patriot out there that only your mindless drones will read it. Men should have rights just as they will pay for the child(in most cases) if they pregnancy is allowed to go foward. I noticed you didn't reply to that part of TallGeese's post so I wanted to point it out to you. I know your M.O. doesn't allow you to respond logically to points you could not win.
Good Day Moonie.
Isn?t your approach a bit heavy handed?
Yes it is, some situations require a shoulder to cry on, some a kick in the pants. This is about the potential murder of someone and it must be avoided by all legal means.
I don?t care what your God says, abortion is legal in my Nation
The Law of God is the highest Law and supersedes all other. Abortion is illegal and is murder.
I am going to do it anyway, it?s legal and I won?t suffer any consequence.
Wrong, you will receive the reward of an emotional hell on earth for your crime. If you are an accomplice, you will receive the same. It is not what God wants for you but you have entered the camp of the enemy and that is his wage for you. And after earth, chains that last forever.
I have already done it and I beg God for his forgiveness.
Go in peace, God is faithful and just to forgive any that ask him. Sin no more and enjoy a peaceful and happy life.
Yes it is, some situations require a shoulder to cry on, some a kick in the pants. This is about the potential murder of someone and it must be avoided by all legal means.
I don?t care what your God says, abortion is legal in my Nation
The Law of God is the highest Law and supersedes all other. Abortion is illegal and is murder.
I am going to do it anyway, it?s legal and I won?t suffer any consequence.
Wrong, you will receive the reward of an emotional hell on earth for your crime. If you are an accomplice, you will receive the same. It is not what God wants for you but you have entered the camp of the enemy and that is his wage for you. And after earth, chains that last forever.
I have already done it and I beg God for his forgiveness.
Go in peace, God is faithful and just to forgive any that ask him. Sin no more and enjoy a peaceful and happy life.
Geekbabe
Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Since when does the paying of money equal a bodily function that can result in permanent injury,scarring or even death?
I've given birth to and raised 3 kids,lemmie tell you, the paying of money was the easiest part of the whole deal (free clue,most women,even mothers work these days,so mom pays $$$ too).I don't like abortion but I'm sure not about to dictate my choices onto another woman,it is she after all who's going to be stuck going thru the pregnancy,not me.
Wait a second. I NEVER suggested that it did equal a body function. All I did was say that a man should have SOME say as it what happens because they do have an active role and it does include financial support. It is rare to see you do it, but it almost seems you are whining about the whole thing Baffled. What free clue do I need? I live in the same goddamn real world that you do and I don't need a clue when it comes to reality nor when it comes to kids or abortion.
Like I said I didn't want to get into a debate over abortion because it is not a topic many people can discuss logically or without strings attached. I can't and I regret posting to begin with but Moonbeam's crap baited me straight into this thread. That being said I have never DICTATED my opinion about abortion onto any of my girlfriends or close girl relationships. I am almost shocked that you think that is what I was trying to do. I merely suggested that the man have some say in the whole matter and listed one reason why. I guess I should go onto say he provided the sperm and the other half of the genes but I thought TallGeese touched on that point rather well. My statement was taken out of context of my entire post because that is not the issue that I was trying to tackle. Get upset about it Baffled but it most certainly was not directed at you and I am suprised you took so much offense to it.
My whole point was the sheer amount of crap that Moonbeam will throw out there. When confronted with logic he switches to a whole different set of point and sidesteps what the issue at hand orginally was!
Sorry if you felt offended by my remarks but they were just following in the lines of all the great stereotypical thinkers we have on this board.
Good Day.
Geekbabe
Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
I would hope that a woman would make a choice like this only after intensive discussion with the man involved,however there's no practical way to enforce that legally and since you can't be just a little pregnant,there's no way really to give a man just a little bit of say so in the situation,not legally anyway.
Also,I'm not "whinning" about anything,just making the observation that when push comes to shove the "Well the man has to pay money so he should have equal say" gets thrown into the mix.I know and understand that there are many very nice men who get the shaft in child custody/support issues.However
in the world I live in it is women who end up bearing the brunt of the responsibility for kids when relationships go bad.Trust me,there have been many weeks where it would have been real nice if my responsibilty began and ended with popping a check into the mailbox.
what in god's name are you talking about? he said:
and proceeded to discuss that point. what the hell do you want him to do? disagree more?
Oh know I understand that quite well! I think some men probably are glad that is all that they do! Hey everyone out there is not a good parent and some think the obligation ends with a check or an occasional gift. Glad that there are people that still know the difference. My whole point was never framed around the financial aspect of things anyway. I simply used that as a stepping stone but didn't quite map out my argument because I felt TallGeese had done it already. Next time I will leave that part out unless I want to give my whole reasoning.
Anyways, it wasn't a knock against you Baffled and I hope you know that.
Originally posted by: gopunk
what in god's name are you talking about? he said:
and proceeded to discuss that point. what the hell do you want him to do? disagree more?
Sorry for the gopunk impaired, but this was not his only post in the thread. If you can wade through the psycho babble he still proceeded to get in his normal cheap shots that were wedged in deep. I guess you missed the part where he said PastorDon's post was invalid because he was a christian. Moonbeam is only for equality to those who agree with him. Go back and read his posts and maybe you will understand where I was coming from.
perhaps i'm "impaired" because i don't follow the logic of making a post, quoting him and condemning what he wrote, then turning around and saying "oh i meant these other posts, go look for yourself". why not quote the said posts in the first place? or would that be the action of someone who was "impaired"...
and i did not see that part, all i saw was this:
am i missing something?
And don't forget, gopunk, that I added that the reason I would exclude Christian Fundies was because if they get the chance they will exclude me because they know they are right and I am wrong. I would just strike preemptively like Bush would, before they hit me.
Millennium, I don't have much to say to your points since I don't see much in them, but here goes:
You have yourself a deal Moonbeam. If you can find an organization that is currently accepting funding to allow this then I will match dollar for dollar any contributions you make up to 1000 dollars. Since you are talking out of your ass as usual you will not find any and you will also not donate any money.
(I have no interest in such a program because I don't oppose what women decide to do. That's the work of people who are sincere about allowing the child to continue it's growth, wouldn't you say? The reason you won't find any is because people like you, who claim they are interested in life aren't interested at all. You are interested in control or you would be looking for ways to have the child yourself especially not that I've shown you the way. Apparently you didn't even understand my point.)
The issue isn't about maintaining control over anyone. It is about allowing a life to continue on in its growth.
(Nope, as I just explained)
Maybe deep down you hope and pray that your ideas are sound and logical
(I think maybe it's you who's doing that praying ),
but you know they are not. You just hope that you can throw your typical goobedly-beloved patriot out there that only your mindless drones will read it.
(Excepting you of course)
Men should have rights just as they will pay for the child(in most cases) if they pregnancy is allowed to go foward. I noticed you didn't reply to that part of TallGeese's post so I wanted to point it out to you.
(I did reply to it by denying the whole issue entirely. What point is there in addressing a sub issue when you reject the entire thesis)
I know your M.O. doesn't allow you to respond logically to points you could not win.
(Hehe, whatever that means. I usually hear that I'm a master at defeating any argument, no matter how sound simply by using some big words and baffling the bejesus out of everybody. Of course I would never do that, but that's what I usually hear. What I usually hear, in other words is some sort of complaint about me, but rarely a logical explanation of how I am wrong. Another incredible notion you seem to completely glide over is that if I'm right about control, do you think you'd be qualified to tell? Do you have the self knowledge to accurately and objectively assess that? You have to realize that when you pay a price that amounts to everything you ever valued for what you know, you may acquire, as a bonus, a deep insight into places where others are reluctant to go. But you'll have to take my word for that. )
Millennium, I don't have much to say to your points since I don't see much in them, but here goes:
You have yourself a deal Moonbeam. If you can find an organization that is currently accepting funding to allow this then I will match dollar for dollar any contributions you make up to 1000 dollars. Since you are talking out of your ass as usual you will not find any and you will also not donate any money.
(I have no interest in such a program because I don't oppose what women decide to do. That's the work of people who are sincere about allowing the child to continue it's growth, wouldn't you say? The reason you won't find any is because people like you, who claim they are interested in life aren't interested at all. You are interested in control or you would be looking for ways to have the child yourself especially not that I've shown you the way. Apparently you didn't even understand my point.)
The issue isn't about maintaining control over anyone. It is about allowing a life to continue on in its growth.
(Nope, as I just explained)
Maybe deep down you hope and pray that your ideas are sound and logical
(I think maybe it's you who's doing that praying
), but you know they are not. You just hope that you can throw your typical goobedly-beloved patriot out there that only your mindless drones will read it.
(Excepting you of course)
Men should have rights just as they will pay for the child(in most cases) if they pregnancy is allowed to go foward. I noticed you didn't reply to that part of TallGeese's post so I wanted to point it out to you.
(I did reply to it by denying the whole issue entirely. What point is there in addressing a sub issue when you reject the entire thesis)
I know your M.O. doesn't allow you to respond logically to points you could not win.
(Hehe, whatever that means. I usually hear that I'm a master at defeating any argument, no matter how sound simply by using some big words and baffling the bejesus out of everybody. Of course I would never do that, but that's what I usually hear. What I usually hear, in other words is some sort of complaint about me, but rarely a logical explanation of how I am wrong. Another incredible notion you seem to completely glide over is that if I'm right about control, do you think you'd be qualified to tell? Do you have the self knowledge to accurately and objectively assess that? You have to realize that when you pay a price that amounts to everything you ever valued for what you know, you may acquire, as a bonus, a deep insight into places where others are reluctant to go. But you'll have to take my word for that.
)Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Ah this isn't worth getting ones panties in a bunch. jyates, sorry for the flame
No problem.....I can stand the "heat" as it were for expressing what isn't a popular view in this forum or this thread but
that's my conviction and thank goodness we live in a country where I can use my voice to speak up or out for something
that I believe in or don't believe in. Just as it's your right to speak out about what your feelings are on the subject.
Do I seriously think that a person who has come to the point of aborting a baby would listen to me? I don't know because
I haven't been in that sitiuation before but that doesn't preclude the fact that I can express my view based on my beliefs
and convictions even when they are contrary to what other's espouse.
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