State of the Union starting now [Just ended].

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Draknor

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Draknor

War, huh? What war? The "war" on drugs? Or the "war" on terror? If there is a war, it is because the United States bombed and invaded another country (Iraq) without clear provocation. There is NO evidence that I've seen to suggest Saddam & Osama were in league with each in planning 9/11.

As far as Arabs hating the US - I agree. Part of that might be because of the freedoms we enjoy. But I suspect a bigger part of that is because of our meddling in the middle east in the last 3-4 decades, causing political unrest, putting and/or encouraging dictators to rise to power, and training the very people who we now call "terrorists". We were happy to train the Al Qaeda when they & Iraq were on our side fighting Iran 20-30 years ago. Now our "pet projects' are coming back to bite us in the ass! It's one thing for allegiances to change and things to backfire - hey, sh!t happens. It's quite another thing to act like the US is in no way whatsoever responsible for what's going on in the middle east and is just some innocent, bystander in the whole affair.

And you can suggest that my stance is 'unpatriotic" because I'm not all for more guns & killing the "terrorists", but I prefer to believe it is my patriotic duty to support the FREEDOMS that so many men & women have died to protect. I don't want those men & women turning over in their battlefield graves because we let our freedoms get taken away in the name of "homeland security" and "war on terror".

You have made so many wrong statements in your reply that is is laughable.

Are you really that misinformed or just stupid?

I will admit I do not know the full historical details of the statements I made; however, I made them based on what information I have heard / read / seen and believed. If you can refute any of them with factual sources, I would be more than happy to learn.

You also made several correct points too.

 

[Draknor]

Since my statements have been challenged, I researched them to ensure I knew what I was talking about. Here's what I found:

Formal declarations of war (ie Made by Congress in accordance with the Constitution), have sort of become a thing of the past (see Wikipedia) Instead, we have the War Powers Resolution which grants the President limited power in conflicts. We also have "authorizations of force", although as wikipedia notes, the legality of these are somewhat questionable.

As for the lead-up to the Iraqi invasion, again I point to Wikipedia Link 1 and Link 2

I quote: "Despite attempts by the CIA and US administration, certain Republican politicians and the government of Israel to prove one, some critics claim that there is no demonstrable link between the Iraqi government and any anti-American terrorist group...In early 2003, CIA director George Tenet reported that an al-Qaida cell is operating inside Baghdad, although no evidence of assistance from the government of Saddam Hussein to this cell has been revealed publicly."

Arab Hatred:
Terrorism Q&A
As I stated, it's not America's freedoms that are the driving force between Middle Eastern hatred, it's our meddling in their affairs. I quote: "In a 1998 interview, bin Laden said he had declared war on America because U.S. troops were propping up Saudi Arabia?s ?oppressive, corrupt and tyrannical regime.?"

Wow, here's an amazing paper.
It describes, in fair detail, the CIA involvement in supporting Afghan rebels (including bin Laden) against the Soviet invasion in 1979: "The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the United States and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade". To be fair, the report does mention that the rebels did not know their jihad against the "atheist Soviets" was sponsored by the CIA.

Notable quote: "In 1995, the former CIA director of the Afghan operation, Charles Cogan, admitted the CIA had indeed sacrificed the drug war to fight the Cold War. `Our main mission was to do as much damage as possible to the Soviets. We didn't really have the resources or the time to devote to an investigation of the drug trade,'... `I don't think that we need to apologize for this. Every situation has its fallout.... There was fallout in terms of drugs, yes. But the main objective was accomplished. The Soviets left Afghanistan.'"

And finally, regarding my last statement, I quote Ben Franklin: "Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security."

You don't have to agree with my points, so long as you are making an informed opinion based on sources you trust. But rhetoric, appeals to "patriotic duty", and baseless claims just don't cut it.

Edit: So much for auto-parse URLS.... *grumble*

 

[alkemyst]

There was a reason you were challenged....the things you are painting with a broad brush are very complex.

The US/Arab thing is deeply seated and based on several issues. The ignorant response is the common "they hate us being free"....there is a lot more to it and at least that was not your claim.

One of the biggest problems they had was us helping Israel and the 'jews', but again there is more to it and even those same people have animosity to us.

Fact of the matter is, for all the BS that we are claimed to have caused, we do a lot of 'unappreciated' good as well.

Not many nations 'beat' someone and then give aid to help them rebuild and keep their country.

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