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Star Citizen Development Discussion (Is Derek Smart Right?)

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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Folks, you have to check this out. TechBoyJK posted it in the other thread - it's the "beyond 3.0" demo. Stick with it - the first ten minutes is nothing, then there's another fifteen minutes of Roberts talking (I was working and paying next to no attention to it), and then they finally get started with a demo. The graphics and scope are simply amazing. Frankly one of my concerns was that such a long development cycle would inevitably make the graphics look outdated. Well, even if the game takes another five years to come to market, if they can deliver playable rates with these graphics I'll be well satisfied. The level of detail is great, and the scope is completely amazing. Obviously the choice of Cryengine was no mistake - this scales absolutely beautifully from very intimate human scale to world scale.

This also eased my mind on the likelihood that this whole thing will crash and burn due to Roberts running out of cash, or being released in half-assed form like Duke Nukem to recoup some losses. I don't think Roberts is going to have a problem raising additional money as needed. Worse case, if Roberts folds then someone else will surely pick this up. It's that good. The flying (and damage) physics are still kinda arcadish, but definitely acceptable; I suspect they represent a compromise between realism and ease of use. The Poop-o-meter has apparently not yet been implemented - or maybe that's a popup rather than a GUI meter. ;) But overall, it's very playable.

They also display some of their tools for world creation. Frankly, I thought their previous creation tools demo was absolutely pathetic. These are completely different. This isn't creating some rudimentary barren "world" with a big cartoon crab - in mere minutes, they create the infrastructure of a cohesive, living heavily populated world. In just a couple minutes, they have a world that supports a quick flyover, but they also have tools (some still in development) to populate the interior. Even without specific quest & content creation, one can travel around the city (indeed, the world) via public transportation and gawk at buildings, billboards, etc. Or simply fly over it. The terrain generator is much, much better as well, so sparsely populated worlds can also be made interesting in a relatively short period of time. The procedurally generated areas definitely look procedurally generated, but they are undoubtedly better than any procedurally generated terrain areas I've seen before. These tools are definitely licensable, if Roberts wants or needs to do so.

This is a framework onto which they could deliver more initial content than a Fallout 4 or Oblivion, and yet could easily release additional content for years, not only in big chunks (planets, systems) but also in content & quest packs, since they will already have the basic framework and infrastructure in place. There is a HUGE amount of detail here, and if Roberts can recreate this with a week (or a month, or three months!) of developer and/or artist time for each system, he's going to be an extremely wealthy man indeed.

Assuming there is a single player component, this will definitely be a buy for me. This definitely changed me from a skeptic to a believer. The last release convinced me that Roberts truly intended to release a game. This convinces me that he CAN release a game. And barring any unforeseen events, that he WILL release a game. It's that good. Can't say I'm a Roberts fanboy yet - but I can no longer say I'm NOT a Roberts fanboy either.

https://www.twitch.tv/starcitizen/clips
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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they go through the same smug elation every citizen con when they get milked by christ roberts.
 

Ranulf

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2001
1,656
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I have a feeling that the space-sim/building one world mmo Dual Universe game which is going into alpha this fall will be out first before even Squadron42.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
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reading the other thread is amazing. Like every year cig makes a demo to wow people into giving them more money and every year people fall for it. Its impressive. 1 year from now when none of that shit is in game they will fall for yet another mocked up video.
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,519
745
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I have a feeling that the space-sim/building one world mmo Dual Universe game which is going into alpha this fall will be out first before even Squadron42.
I think so to, and its being run by a very small studio of 25-35 devs if i recall correctly. So assuming it does actually come out and has all its claimed features will pretty much put to bed all the BS claims that chris roberts had to build a huge elaborate studio with 1000's of employees to make SC game.

If they can make Dual universe in a few years with 25-35 peeps then there is no reason SC should not have been out several years ago.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
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I think so to, and its being run by a very small studio of 25-35 devs if i recall correctly. So assuming it does actually come out and has all its claimed features will pretty much put to bed all the BS claims that chris roberts had to build a huge elaborate studio with 1000's of employees to make SC game.

If they can make Dual universe in a few years with 25-35 peeps then there is no reason SC should not have been out several years ago.
SC makes more money NOT coming out then they ever will releasing the game.
 
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Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
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SC makes more money NOT coming out then they ever will releasing the game.
If it is as awesome as they claim it is, then I disagree. WoW made something like 1 million pounds a month (not sure at peak or what it's doing now) in 2014.
While I'm not sure the exact model for SC, if it's still selling ships I can't help but think they'll be mining it's users much faster when it's something they can buy and then use now. It would also get the people that aren't sure if it's scam or real, and I've little doubt a lot of the naysayers would recant and play.. if it was both real and most of what is promised is in it.
 

Ranulf

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2001
1,656
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I think so to, and its being run by a very small studio of 25-35 devs if i recall correctly. So assuming it does actually come out and has all its claimed features will pretty much put to bed all the BS claims that chris roberts had to build a huge elaborate studio with 1000's of employees to make SC game.

If they can make Dual universe in a few years with 25-35 peeps then there is no reason SC should not have been out several years ago.
Agreed. The pricing scheme for Dual Universe isn't that great either. It looks like it ultimately will be a monthly fee mmo.
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,519
745
126
Agreed. The pricing scheme for Dual Universe isn't that great either. It looks like it ultimately will be a monthly fee mmo.
I used to hate monthly subs, however over time i have found i like them alot more than free to play with micro transactions.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,942
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If it is as awesome as they claim it is, then I disagree. WoW made something like 1 million pounds a month (not sure at peak or what it's doing now) in 2014.
While I'm not sure the exact model for SC, if it's still selling ships I can't help but think they'll be mining it's users much faster when it's something they can buy and then use now. It would also get the people that aren't sure if it's scam or real, and I've little doubt a lot of the naysayers would recant and play.. if it was both real and most of what is promised is in it.
Star citizen doesnt have subscriptions. They have already sold the game to 99% of the people who care. Imagine the quandary they will be in when a guy like me who spent $35 can wallow away my time and get $5000 ships for "free". No, they are better off never releasing a game.
 

Andy T

Senior member
Jul 24, 2008
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Anyone remember Strike Commander? I actually enjoyed the game, when I bought on that $10 special Origin CD. But the game was a few years late and also cost more than originally planned.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,103
400
136
Star citizen doesnt have subscriptions. They have already sold the game to 99% of the people who care. Imagine the quandary they will be in when a guy like me who spent $35 can wallow away my time and get $5000 ships for "free". No, they are better off never releasing a game.
Yet.. I wouldn't be surprised if they made them.. at the least I think they'll made more ships. This isn't a situation where you buy the box and then that's all. They make most of their money from repeat customers that unlike you seem to be OK with paying to get the newer ships, that would still apply. At the very least there I can't see how it wouldn't, these people are buying jpegs of ships, the moment people can buy something they can use, that number will go up. I also thought I saw something (I'd need someone to explain it) about ship insurance. That leads me to believe (probably wrongly) that there's something in the game that causes you to need to buy new ships.. at the very least I can see them selling upgrades for ships to people. My point still stands though.. if they release the game they'll get new players (provided it's close to what they've promised) which means new sales, that can't be denied. IF it's close enough to what they've promised, that'll no doubt be a big bump in sales..

And that's not getting into expansions.. which aren't as hard as they connect to stuff already there..
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,942
126
Yet.. I wouldn't be surprised if they made them.. at the least I think they'll made more ships. This isn't a situation where you buy the box and then that's all. They make most of their money from repeat customers that unlike you seem to be OK with paying to get the newer ships, that would still apply. At the very least there I can't see how it wouldn't, these people are buying jpegs of ships, the moment people can buy something they can use, that number will go up. I also thought I saw something (I'd need someone to explain it) about ship insurance. That leads me to believe (probably wrongly) that there's something in the game that causes you to need to buy new ships.. at the very least I can see them selling upgrades for ships to people. My point still stands though.. if they release the game they'll get new players (provided it's close to what they've promised) which means new sales, that can't be denied. IF it's close enough to what they've promised, that'll no doubt be a big bump in sales..

And that's not getting into expansions.. which aren't as hard as they connect to stuff already there..
Wait so you suggest they go with a pay to win model? Or that they change the terms of the game and make it subscription based AFTER people bought in? Both of these are bad options.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,103
400
136
Wait so you suggest they go with a pay to win model? Or that they change the terms of the game and make it subscription based AFTER people bought in? Both of these are bad options.
You're kidding right? The game is already pay to win.. they're already selling 'high powered' ships at a much larger cost than the smaller ones. If that's not pay to win, please describe what Pay to win even means?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,942
126
You're kidding right? The game is already pay to win.. they're already selling 'high powered' ships at a much larger cost than the smaller ones. If that's not pay to win, please describe what Pay to win even means?
Oh I agree its completely broken but they have always tried to have the illusion it wasnt pay to win. Of course we all know that everyone is buying golden ammo for their autism chariots.

Show me examples of popular pay to win games.
 

Seba

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2000
1,407
44
91
For ship combat, it clearly is pay to win (not so obvious now because the best players are also using the best ships and best weapons). Even more so in the last year or so, as they kept nerfing to death the cheaper ships.

But if other "career" choices (cargo, passenger transport, mining, exploration, etc.) will ever be in this game, it might be enjoyable (for some) even with cheap(er) ships.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,215
216
106
Depends on your definition of winning. To me, especially in an MMO, winning = having fun. It's been repeatedly stated that selling ships for cash will eventually come to an end, and then it will play like any space sim before where you earn them in game. To say that having a more expensive ship is winning, well that implies whoever buys the game on Day 2 is always a loser because they are behind the curve. That's simply not true. This isn't a multiplayer FPS game with a leaderboard and objectives that reset.

Pay to win is something like offering an in-game item that can only be bought with cash that offers extreme, game play altering benefits.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,103
400
136
Oh I agree its completely broken but they have always tried to have the illusion it wasnt pay to win. Of course we all know that everyone is buying golden ammo for their autism chariots.

Show me examples of popular pay to win games.
Just about all the mobile games that outsell all of the other platform games combined.. I think I may have misspoken (time will tell) as I meant to say it's more pay to skip. I think that it's a way of Pay to Win that isn't talked about much. I also think that CIG will sell more ships even if they say they won't right now. It'll be some expansion or something other name, but it'll be them selling more ships. I don't blame them for it, it's the best path to making money. I also wouldn't be surprised if they do make ships that can only be gotten by paying real money, which would have specs that would tip the scales heavily in their favor.. which would be Pay to Win.

Of course I was also reading about ship insurance, which I gather is based upon how you got the ship and how often you use it. I gather (someone please correct me where I'm wrong) it uses in game credits that you earn, but I'm guessing that you'll be able to 'buy' game credits with real money. Again, more a Pay to Skip than a straight out Pay to Win.. but unless you've bought a ship with real money (which I gather gives you "lifetime insurance") you'll have to buy it in game, and repeatably at that.

Depends on your definition of winning. To me, especially in an MMO, winning = having fun. It's been repeatedly stated that selling ships for cash will eventually come to an end, and then it will play like any space sim before where you earn them in game. To say that having a more expensive ship is winning, well that implies whoever buys the game on Day 2 is always a loser because they are behind the curve. That's simply not true. This isn't a multiplayer FPS game with a leaderboard and objectives that reset.

Pay to win is something like offering an in-game item that can only be bought with cash that offers extreme, game play altering benefits.
That's a good point.. I'm not sure what the definition on "winning' this game would be. It really sounds like it'll end up being one of those MMOs where if you spend enough time in it you'll be able to get things.. which is a pet peeve of mine personally, If I'm going to grind to improve a life, it'll be my real one, but to each their own..

As I said above.. I also don't think they'll drop selling ships. The only way I see that happening is if they do a sequel and they're sun-setting this game. There's too much money on the table for them, not to mention the only way to keep things fresh (and players engaged) is new content. Without new things to strive for, what's the point?
 

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