• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Star Citizen Development Discussion (Is Derek Smart Right?)

Page 46 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,756
61
91
Yes, forked code trees can and have lead to huge problems, but they do not always lead to issues (and neigher you nor I are in a position to know if it did cause issues, and the people who do know stated there were no major issues).

I'm not disagreeing that Amazon has made hundreds of changes with lumberyard. I am disagreeing that said changes are conflicts. Again, Amazon has been working heavily on the network and rendering engines, CIG has been working heavily the physics and positional engines... There is very little overlap in where the focus of changes have been made.

Actually, we are in a position to know because the game is a broken mess and has been delayed many, many, many times.

Oh, and yeah, you've been repeating stale lies about GTA V, too

History and overview[edit]

Development was conducted on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 systems simultaneously. Overhauling the Rockstar Advanced Game Engineallowed the developers to render particle effects with greater detail than in Grand Theft Auto IV.
Preliminary work on Grand Theft Auto V began after Grand Theft Auto IV's release in April 2008;[1] full development lasted approximately three years.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Grand_Theft_Auto_V

Only people with terrible critical thinking skills still believe in CRoberts the car dealing huckster
 

Fallen Kell

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,595
224
106
"Stop trying to get refunds. Your money, that you gave us, is gone. It went to developing dreams; not yours, but the people in charge here. You paid for them to live out their dreams: Ben, who finally got to work with his idol; Sandi, who got back into acting; Chris who got to direct an absolutely stellar A list cast. For everyone else, you've given them hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to pursue whatever they want to do. I'm sure they thank you for helping them do what they've only dared dreamed.

The rest of us politely say "Stop emailing us asking for your money back." I know the official line is that everything is great and we are making money like crazy, but it's not. Things here are dire. They've been dire for awhile but you can feel the shame and terror every time you walk into the building. I know this is coming off harsh. I don't care. I'm sick of working here and I'm especially sick of the whiny emails I continue to get. What did you expect?

I cashed out four months ago via GM. If you can sell a ship to a buyer, take it. Take it for half. Just take it.

You can also email and ask for a partial refund for 10%. Those we will approve without a problem, although it might take six or eight weeks to process now. Otherwise, stop asking, stop emailing and stop whining. Just stop."

lololol. doomed.
And the only source to this quote is from the Something Aweful forums... a place that I would say is dubious at best, but more likely a troll.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Red Storm

D007

Junior Member
Aug 27, 2009
21
2
66
www.heatware.com
If they think people can't get their money back, they are delusional.. One lawsuit would put them right out of business. A class action lawsuit would completely drain them of every single penny. And if they keep up with this money grab bullshit. I'd support that.. I have a lot of faith in this game but it's turning into Mech warrior online.. New ship everyday at a price, for a game running on the shitty Cry engine, that will probably never be finished and even if it is, it will run like shit.. I'm getting sick of seeing a new ship pop up for sale constantly and we don't even have functioning, basic mechanics. 850.00 ship pop up now?! WTF?! This is money grab bullshit. The new mech warrior online.. I'm about to be one of those guys getting a reufnd and you bet your ass I'll get it. No matter what they say.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
Lol. Lawsuits are PART of business. Damn near every successful and non-successful company is involved in one or more. It's the American way. One lawsuit would not put CIG right out of business.....even if it was successful.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,942
126
Lol. Lawsuits are PART of business. Damn near every successful and non-successful company is involved in one or more. It's the American way. One lawsuit would not put CIG right out of business.....even if it was successful.
One lawsuit wouldnt but with the consumer protections in different countries around the world there will be many. Americans will get paid out last though in that event. We dont have the same protections here because of freedumb.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
460
126
If they think people can't get their money back, they are delusional.. One lawsuit would put them right out of business. A class action lawsuit would completely drain them of every single penny. And if they keep up with this money grab bullshit. I'd support that.. I have a lot of faith in this game but it's turning into Mech warrior online.. New ship everyday at a price, for a game running on the shitty Cry engine, that will probably never be finished and even if it is, it will run like shit.. I'm getting sick of seeing a new ship pop up for sale constantly and we don't even have functioning, basic mechanics. 850.00 ship pop up now?! WTF?! This is money grab bullshit. The new mech warrior online.. I'm about to be one of those guys getting a reufnd and you bet your ass I'll get it. No matter what they say.
The vast majority of the money has already been spent. People might be able to get a small fraction of their money back, basically whatever hasn't been spent less colossal lawyers' fees, but most of that money is already gone. At this point, it's much too late for a mass revolt, although you personally might have some luck being the squeakiest wheel. For the "investors" as a group, the only hope for value is to wait and see if Roberts manages to put out a decent game. Otherwise, the "investors" can never see more than a tiny fraction of their "investment". (I'm using the bunny ears because no one should have ever considered this to be a conventional investment; these are Hail Mary plays to win something one would otherwise have no hope of seeing.)
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,105
400
136
Correct. I made the comparison to a well known game (to almost anyone who is older than 13) to give some perspective on game development times as there have been extensive information released as to what it took to make GTA V from the devs and game studio in interviews over the years. I would have made the comparison to something like World of Warcraft (approx 4.5 years has been floated, but not definitely confirmed and no word on staffing), or FF XV (at least 10 years to develop as work began before it's announcement in 2006, and it wasn't released until 2016, but no good word on staffing levels through those years) , but as said there has been a lack of verified information on what it took to develop those games. Probably a better example might be something like Guild Wars 2 (5 years of initial development, but again, no data on people working on the game)... Again though, very little confirmed development times (with size of teams involved).

This is all to point out what it actually takes to develop a game for people who have not actually been a developer and don't understand how things actually work in programming and the game industry which typically holds things close until work has reached a point that the game could be releasable in 1-2 years.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but there is a very huge key difference between SC and these other games you mentioned.. the source of funding. While most other games take a lot of time to develop, they still have to show the people backing it progress on hitting agreed upon milestones and (in most deals I've seen in venture capital) deal with repercussions if they miss deadlines. This game on the other hand doesn't seem to act like it has to hit milestones at all or care if they miss them, and yet they continue to put their hands out more even more money from it's user base. This is one of my biggest problems with SC's funding model. It gives them the ability to sidestep normal business controls that are there to protect investor's capital so a proper product will either be released, or they can cut their losses. SC plays the 'it's a donation' game while removing dates on when someone should expect the single player. If this was any other funding SC (at the least the single player version) would either be out by now (good or bad) or they'd be having funding issues. Unlike some in this thread, I don't think this is some scam, but I don't think the people who are running the company have a clue wtf they're doing.

As for shifting to new engines, and if it matters.. I'm not developer on these platforms so I can't really speak to the tech parts of what changed and if it matters.. I do have to scratch my head that we're still in ALPHA (please correct me if i'm wrong and somehow we've finally moved into a Beta or RC) and how can we keep have delays if the change meant nothing. One would think (again I freely admit I know nothing on this engine switch) that they'd be able to make progress faster at this point.. If I recall correctly (possibly mistaken) not too long ago someone declared that they had finally built the toolset needed to make the game.. yet we're still in ALPHA with no end of that in sight. Even the single player part which should be much easier to make as it's a contained game, (unless I'm misunderstood that as well, please correct if I'm wrong) so it shouldn't need a lot of the overhead the MMOish version of the game does.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,942
126
I agree with most of what you're saying, but there is a very huge key difference between SC and these other games you mentioned.. the source of funding. While most other games take a lot of time to develop, they still have to show the people backing it progress on hitting agreed upon milestones and (in most deals I've seen in venture capital) deal with repercussions if they miss deadlines. This game on the other hand doesn't seem to act like it has to hit milestones at all or care if they miss them, and yet they continue to put their hands out more even more money from it's user base. This is one of my biggest problems with SC's funding model. It gives them the ability to sidestep normal business controls that are there to protect investor's capital so a proper product will either be released, or they can cut their losses. SC plays the 'it's a donation' game while removing dates on when someone should expect the single player. If this was any other funding SC (at the least the single player version) would either be out by now (good or bad) or they'd be having funding issues. Unlike some in this thread, I don't think this is some scam, but I don't think the people who are running the company have a clue wtf they're doing.

As for shifting to new engines, and if it matters.. I'm not developer on these platforms so I can't really speak to the tech parts of what changed and if it matters.. I do have to scratch my head that we're still in ALPHA (please correct me if i'm wrong and somehow we've finally moved into a Beta or RC) and how can we keep have delays if the change meant nothing. One would think (again I freely admit I know nothing on this engine switch) that they'd be able to make progress faster at this point.. If I recall correctly (possibly mistaken) not too long ago someone declared that they had finally built the toolset needed to make the game.. yet we're still in ALPHA with no end of that in sight. Even the single player part which should be much easier to make as it's a contained game, (unless I'm misunderstood that as well, please correct if I'm wrong) so it shouldn't need a lot of the overhead the MMOish version of the game does.
This isnt alpha. lol.

Alpha[edit]
See also: Alpha release
Alpha is the stage when key gameplay functionality is implemented, and assets are partially finished.[153] A game in alpha is feature complete, that is, game is playable and contains all the major features.[154] These features may be further revised based on testing and feedback.[153] Additional small, new features may be added, similarly planned, but unimplemented features may be dropped.[154] Programmers focus mainly on finishing the codebase, rather than implementing additions.[152] Alpha occurs eight to ten months before code release,[153] but this can vary significantly based on the scope of content and assets any given game has.

We havent even hit a proper alpha yet. Now when you are using "alpha" as a marketing ploy to milk whales then the term can change but it is not an alpha yet.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,942
126
One big big thing about star citizen is nobody is refining the game play because nobody has actually played the game. You cant hve a great game without great gameplay. When rimworld was first made he had the game ready with white dots and had the core gameplay done like this. He did that because he was able to tweak it easily. Starcitizen isnt properly designed.
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,518
745
126
I agree with most of what you're saying, but there is a very huge key difference between SC and these other games you mentioned.. the source of funding. While most other games take a lot of time to develop, they still have to show the people backing it progress on hitting agreed upon milestones and (in most deals I've seen in venture capital) deal with repercussions if they miss deadlines. This game on the other hand doesn't seem to act like it has to hit milestones at all or care if they miss them, and yet they continue to put their hands out more even more money from it's user base. This is one of my biggest problems with SC's funding model. It gives them the ability to sidestep normal business controls that are there to protect investor's capital so a proper product will either be released, or they can cut their losses. SC plays the 'it's a donation' game while removing dates on when someone should expect the single player. If this was any other funding SC (at the least the single player version) would either be out by now (good or bad) or they'd be having funding issues. Unlike some in this thread, I don't think this is some scam, but I don't think the people who are running the company have a clue wtf they're doing.

As for shifting to new engines, and if it matters.. I'm not developer on these platforms so I can't really speak to the tech parts of what changed and if it matters.. I do have to scratch my head that we're still in ALPHA (please correct me if i'm wrong and somehow we've finally moved into a Beta or RC) and how can we keep have delays if the change meant nothing. One would think (again I freely admit I know nothing on this engine switch) that they'd be able to make progress faster at this point.. If I recall correctly (possibly mistaken) not too long ago someone declared that they had finally built the toolset needed to make the game.. yet we're still in ALPHA with no end of that in sight. Even the single player part which should be much easier to make as it's a contained game, (unless I'm misunderstood that as well, please correct if I'm wrong) so it shouldn't need a lot of the overhead the MMOish version of the game does.
LMAO, no way this game is in alpha yet.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
It's not alpha. And if they release 3.0 and then try to call that their minimum viable product, they're delusional.
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,518
745
126
If it's not Alpha, wtf is it?
Pre alpha, experimental build, whatever they want to call it but an Alpha build it is not. An alpha build would be feature complete something which from all the videos i have seen SC is not..
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,942
126
They need to make a vertical slice first. But they are too busy adding feature creep and more ships to sell. They should of made 2 ships. 1 multicrew 1 not. They should of made 1 base 1 moon and 1 city scape with 2 locations. Then they should of worked the game design and ask themselves is this fun. If its not then they need to tweak it. What happens when they put all this dumb crap together and its not fun? How much reworking will they need to do?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ginfest

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
Pre alpha, experimental build, whatever they want to call it but an Alpha build it is not. An alpha build would be feature complete something which from all the videos i have seen SC is not..
Yes, that's my assessment as well. The "problem" with this is that CR has said they will continue refining Star Citizen (including adding features as well as content) as long is there is funding. So the darn thing may never technically leave alpha....
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
The game's practically finished at this point

https://clips.twitch.tv/EncouragingAmorphousPastaDuDudu
I would love to see the context in which that statement was made, but I don't have the time to watch the full 1.5 replay. Having said that, I stopped believing Star Citizen Community Managers (first Ben, now Jared and the Tylers) a long time ago. They report to Sandi Gardiner. Sandi is the head of Marketing. Marketing's goal is to raise funds, not inform the community.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KMFJD

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
460
126
The game's practically finished at this point

https://clips.twitch.tv/EncouragingAmorphousPastaDuDudu
Interesting. From the other thread, Rivethead linked to a Roberts Space Industries' The Shipyard post which discusses a lot of in-depth items, using phrases like "this system we’re still developing would do things like limit the chances of finding a Military Spec 85X or a Stealth Herald simply due to people buying the best items of that type" and "We’re still in the design phase of this system and therefore still working on all the edge cases we have internally." That doesn't sound like the game's "practically finished" to me. From what I've seen, I'd support claims of being pre-Alpha as far as conventional programming goes.

That said, I can see a more or less true alpha being offered on Steam by next summer. Early access (including plenty as pre-alpha as we're seeing now) are pretty common and would raise more money to finish the game.

After all the stolen JPEGs displaying "progress", Roberts has finally shown me something that convinces me he at least intends to release a game (technically, two games) reasonably in line with his claims. Whether he can actually keep it together and funded long enough to make that happen is anybody's guess. And personally, I'm betting against its multiplayer being anything near massive, per instance anyway. That's a pretty big swing for me because a month or so ago I was pretty convinced that at best he was playing Duke Nukem Forever and at worst was playing Uwe Boll, just pretending to be making a game so that he could continue living the high life as long as possible, without any real intent to produce a game.
 

Dannar26

Senior member
Mar 13, 2012
689
26
91
From everything I can gather, it looks like they've made some newbie mistakes in setting up a company. I feel like they're probably functional to a point now, but are shackled by past mistakes, such as choosing Cryengine. They got ridiculously lucky on the amount of donated revenue they've taken in. But they've burned a good portion of time and good will. How long until they can build something stable before money or backer patience wears out? It's a race against time now.

What they're doing can't be easy. Yes, I am not a programmer in the remotest sense. I feel it safe to say that if the core mechanics were easy to do, or if they had a handle on it, we'd have seen better evidence of them by now. I see too much in the way of news and features about "fluff" items, the most egregious of which are the continued ship sales & redesigns. It all screams, "hey you guys! lookit this awesome flashy stuff! Please stay interested! Oh, and we could use a few more bucks..." Where are the instances capable of large battles? Where are all the promised game mechanics, working and in good condition, seamlessly blending together?

I'm no JSt0rm, or TechBoyjK (or Derek Smart as was once alleged). There's a game out there, and they do want it to be great. But they're too embarrassed to tell us how long it really will take, and/or they realize such honesty would surely be the death of their funding. They can have my $35. If you spent 100's or 1000's, then you wanted this thing to come about pretty badly. You might be crazy to put in that much cash, but I won't judge. But if you wanted it that badly, then your best shot is waiting. I just hope your appetite for risk is as big as your wallet. It's probably better than lawyering up, making the lawyers rich, and completely ruining whatever off chance this thing has of coming out. I say this because going that route is probably more wheel-spinning than its worth...unless you were one of those guys who put a mortgage down payment into this thing, in which case you've got greater issues to deal with.

Do they possess the coding acumen to pull this off? Do they have the business sense to navigate all the pitfalls along the way to getting the 1.0 release to our computers? And most importantly, do they have the money to continue development for as long as they really need to? I guess we'll see...hopefully they can rally with this 3.0 thing. Hope they can do it. Not sure if they can.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY