IR cameras have a hard time with reflective surfaces, it's always good to take readings from a shiny and matte surface side by side with a grain of salt.Just watched.
Strange that the die top is cooler than the edges.
They might have incorporated the necessary pins for x16 in the mobile package from the beginning and simply not populated them until now; the size and cost difference would be minimal. As for desktops, remember that desktop and mobile packages are completely separate pieces of hardware, and AMD can put whatever traces they want between whatever features are on the die and whatever pins are on the package as long as it fits the specification they have given to motherboard manufacturers and the like.@Valantar on your earlier post about Renoir PCIe resources...
Has the actual package pin-out for Mobile Renoir changed? I don't recall reading where it has new pins, and seeing that the 4000 series APUs are destined for desktop work shortly on AM4, it wouldn't seem like there has been any reconfiguration of the PCIe output (active pins) of the processor itself. At best, it looks, at least to me, like AMD has made some uefi and controller changes to the platform to allow the package pins that would normally go to the PCH/South-Bridge to instead drive a second m.2 slot on mobile configurations, leaving the rest of the PCIe output broadly the same, save for enabling unused lanes from Raven Ridge. Since the desktop AM4 socket isn't changing, it would seem that, at the most, they have made the needed PCIe controller changes internally to allow the output of a full x16 on the channel that drives the first (and/or second) full length PCIe slot on most motherboards. Of course, that does leave the question: does it support any native bifurcation on the socket driven x16?
Wouldn't we all, but sadly that ain't happening any time soon. High resolution IR video is pretty much limited to the CIA and others with unlimited budgets. Even FLIR's highest-end imaging system intended for surveillance aircraft and the like tops out at 1280x720 IR sensors (with an option for 1080p upscaling). Their highest end professional handheld IR camera tops out at 1024x768 (starting at US$41 500).I want that IR video in high resolution. Watching the activity right on the silicon is mesmerizing.
AMD has been making the APU based on the previous generation; Ryzen 4000 APUs are Zen 2 based. I could see them wanting to change that, so perhaps they are working on getting a Zen 3 / RDNA2 APU out on 5 nm as early as possible. They would want both for better power efficiency.
I got that, it's just that they still needed to add the lanes + connect the pins to make the x8 GPU connection into an x16. So there are changes to the pinout of Renoir desktop APUs compared to previous ones. As for NVMe, as you can see from the slide in my previous post, mobile APUs have two x4 links for m.2 drives, an x16 for GPUs, and some undefined number of general purpose lanes for WiFi and the like. If any laptop has the option for a third NVMe drive it's likely bifurcated off the x16 (seeing how no laptop GPUs tend to use x16 connections anyhow).With the internal logic and UEFI changes, I meant that they had adapted the x4 link to the chipset, which is normally not used on mobile, to instead drive the second M.2 nvme slot at x4. From what little that I've seen of system reviews, the systems that have two M.2s are fully provisioning them with 4 lanes, and at least two of them also provide, from the processor, a data channel for an additional internal drive. That's too many lanes without either repurposing the x4 that was meant for the chipset or driving them from the top x8 from the x16 dGPU path.
They're not going to put a GPU in the IOD, there's no point - a meaningful GPU would be too big to fit in the IOD (remember, I/O doesn't shrink well with node changes, so the IOD would be big even on 7nm), and there wouldn't be any point to adding a stripped-down one given that their customers have told them quite clearly that they don't need an iGPU for their CPUs.Do any of you think we'll see a new IO die? with a GPU?
I guess not for Zen2 since Renoir covers that, but for Zen3 perhaps?
Why would the 8-core CCX necessitate a new IOD? The CCD will connect to the IOD over IF same as always, right? As for power consumption, I kind of doubt a single node change will make much of a difference. And, of course, I/O doesn't shrink well. It's PCIe 4.0 by itself that needs that kind of power; the signalling is far more complex, and it's handing 2x the data compared to 3.0 after all, so power consumption will always be higher.Pretty sure Zen 3 will have a new IOD, if only because of the 8 core CCX. And judging by X570 power consumption, the Zen 2 IOD sort of sucks anyway.
What will be interesting is if they reuse the Zen 3 IOD for X670 or some other chipset (eg. ThreadRipper).
IF they add a (small, desktop-functional) iGPU to the "new IOD"... what if they introduce that as a new system chipset, X670, and have an actual "chipset iGPU" again? Or they could put it on the CPU die. But honestly, it wouldn't be a horrible thing, would it, for the system chipset to contain the iGPU again? Unless, that could cause interference (requiring a switch) between an actual APU's video output pins, and the chipset iGPU's output pins. That might complicate things somewhat.Pretty sure Zen 3 will have a new IOD, if only because of the 8 core CCX. And judging by X570 power consumption, the Zen 2 IOD sort of sucks anyway.
What will be interesting is if they reuse the Zen 3 IOD for X670 or some other chipset (eg. ThreadRipper).
Bespoke CPU/APU chipsets is a terrible idea, it would utterly decimate the selection of motherboards available for APUs. It would for all intents and purposes kill DIY apu sales, relegating them to pre-builts alone. Plus it would removeany upgrade path for APU buyers. Two platforms (HEDT + MSDT) is more than enough.IF they add a (small, desktop-functional) iGPU to the "new IOD"... what if they introduce that as a new system chipset, X670, and have an actual "chipset iGPU" again? Or they could put it on the CPU die. But honestly, it wouldn't be a horrible thing, would it, for the system chipset to contain the iGPU again? Unless, that could cause interference (requiring a switch) between an actual APU's video output pins, and the chipset iGPU's output pins. That might complicate things somewhat.
Or maybe they should bifurcate the system chipsets, and make ones FOR APUs, that would pass-through the video outputs, and make ones FOR CPUs, with a (small) chipset iGPU, primarily designed for "business desktops", with Ryzen CPUs. Kind of like Intel's Q-series chipsets. Obscure, OEM-only, but designed specifically for business desktops. Maybe bundle those (with chipset iGPUs) with Ryzen PRO CPUs.
Edit: Not entirely unlike the 760G, 780G, and 970, 990X, and 990FX chipsets that AMD had for AM3/AM3+.
What kind of performance benefits would that enable vs Global foundries 12nm?
Another possibility.What is the chances when AMD does move to a new IOD die (Zen 4 I think), that they tap up Samsung 8nm for that?
Probably get a good deal, lots of capacity without affecting Tsmc supply, mature optimised process so performance and yields will be terrific.
What kind of performance benefits would that enable vs Global foundries 12nm?
Power numbers like those are typically for logic, not I/O, so power scaling for an I/O die is likely to be significantly worse than that. Same for area, and performance doesn't matter much for that application.Another possibility.
GlobalFoundries Unveils 12LP+ Technology: Massive Performance & Power Improvements
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1490...nology-massive-performance-power-improvements
'GlobalFoundries’ 12LP+ manufacturing technology builds upon the company’s 12LP process yet enables a 20% increase in performance (at the same power and complexity) or a 40% reduction in power requirements (at the same clocks and complexity) as well as a 15% improvement in logic area scaling when compared to 12LP platform'
..........................
'GlobalFoundries expects its customers to tape out the first 12LP+ SoCs sometimes in the second half of 2020 and produce them in volume in 2021.'
I got that, it's just that they still needed to add the lanes + connect the pins to make the x8 GPU connection into an x16. So there are changes to the pinout of Renoir desktop APUs compared to previous ones. As for NVMe, as you can see from the slide in my previous post, mobile APUs have two x4 links for m.2 drives, an x16 for GPUs, and some undefined number of general purpose lanes for WiFi and the like. If any laptop has the option for a third NVMe drive it's likely bifurcated off the x16 (seeing how no laptop GPUs tend to use x16 connections anyhow).
According to AMD themselves, mobile Renoir has two storage blocks, each of which can be either an x4 NVMe drive or some unknown SATA configuration. It might be possible for one of them to be x2 NVMe and SATA I suppose, but at least according to AMD's own block diagram of mobile Renoir, that's all the storage I/O it has. Of course in a dGPU-less system it would be entirely possible to populate at least x4 of the PEG PCIe lanes with another NVMe slot, leaving one of the storage blocks free to be used as SATA. It might also be possible to do this with a dGPU, though that depends if the x16 controller supports bifurcation or not. See my previous post for the diagram, sourced from AT's launch coverage.I'm sorry that I wasn't more specific. The third drive that I was referencing was SATA, not NVME. We know that previous Zen processors made you choose with respect to the drive I/O coming out of the processor: one x4 NVME, or one x2 NVME and a pair of SATA ports. Now, we have Renoir, which looks like it has the ability to drive a pair of x4 NVME devices and also can drive at least one SATA lane, all without using an external controller. Either the Renoir die has a massive tear up and redo of the PCIe side of things inside the package, or, they've repurposed the x4 chipset link to drive one NVME slot (not a big deal, they are both essentially just PCIe devices) and also bifurcating the x16 PCIe link down to x8/x4(and x4 unused unless that's what's driving the wireless cards) to drive both the dGPU and an M.2 NVME. The sata drive is being driven by the existing provision for the x4 NVME link to be split to x2+2 sata.
I'm not complaining about any of this, just wrapping my head around it all.
Are you thinking they will further split up the I/O? I sincerely doubt they'll go back to a monolithic design given the massive success of their MCM designs.While I do expect the concept of an IOD to stay for Zen 3 (there I expect the big changes to happen within the cores), in line with keeping AM4 compatibility, for Zen 4 I'm kind of anticipating another radical platform design switch like happened between Zen 1 and 2. At that point the moniker "IOD" may well be no longer applicable.
Along with optimisations and experience gained Regards to building IOD die, I would hope so, would this enable higher higher fabric clocks = lower latency?Well, it would be smaller. Take up less package space. Probably.
Interesting, why would global foundries develop such a process without a know significant customer? If this rings true then this is very impressive imo.Another possibility.
GlobalFoundries Unveils 12LP+ Technology: Massive Performance & Power Improvements
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1490...nology-massive-performance-power-improvements
'GlobalFoundries’ 12LP+ manufacturing technology builds upon the company’s 12LP process yet enables a 20% increase in performance (at the same power and complexity) or a 40% reduction in power requirements (at the same clocks and complexity) as well as a 15% improvement in logic area scaling when compared to 12LP platform'
..........................
'GlobalFoundries expects its customers to tape out the first 12LP+ SoCs sometimes in the second half of 2020 and produce them in volume in 2021.'
True, but maybe this process was specifically designed for this use case, it must improve the performance, even if just allows increased fabric speeds relative to mem clock to reduce latency or something? Allow ddr5 at effective speeds and decent efficiency.Power numbers like those are typically for logic, not I/O, so power scaling for an I/O die is likely to be significantly worse than that. Same for area, and performance doesn't matter much for that application.
This indeed. @LightningZ71 mentioned it already, pin-out is a potential problem for shrinking the IOD. So the uncore logic could be split up between an interposer which ideally houses all the connections such as all the PHYs and IFOPs endpoints etc. whereas some stapled dies could house the secret sauce (unfortunately we know way too little about Zen's uncore, but I'd expect that to include things like the PSP, fabric switches, buffers, SerDes and memory controller, I/O root hub and tag directories etc.).Are you thinking they will further split up the I/O?
It was confirmed (again) by AMD today that they will have Zen 3 in 2020, and that it will be 7nm, not 5nm as was being tossed around at times.
TechPowerUp
AMD has Renoir now, no need for a small GPU in Matisse for office SFFs and mini tower markets.PCIE 5?.. Possible small gpu for OEM office market? They are going to need every bit of help they can with process.