Something to consider when pushing housing density.

[fskimospy]

Nice generalization but I'm not a home owner, not the one I live in at least. Renter actively trying to re-forest a property.

You’re right it’s not exclusively owners although it largely is due to the financial incentives.

I was a homeowner and am now a renter so I see it both ways.

 

[fskimospy]

I thought they needed to live in high density housing? Are you saying people are supposed to live in single family homes now?

Is this a joke?

My point is and has always been that people should live in whatever house they want. My request is for people to stop banning people from living in houses they don’t approve of.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You’re right it’s not exclusively owners although it largely is due to the financial incentives.

I was a homeowner and am now a renter so I see it both ways.

I imagine if it was financially possible, most would live in a single family home. Lots like the beehive insanity I guess, I hate it though.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Is this a joke?

My point is and has always been that people should live in whatever house they want. My request is for people to stop banning people from living in houses they don’t approve of.

Right but how do you balance that against the need to maintain green spaces? It's pretty irresponsible to just checkerboard the entire planet with single family homes.

 

[fskimospy]

I think NIMBYs justify their horrifying opinions by convincing themselves that people want to force them to live in apartment buildings.

The reality is we just want them to stop banning people from living in apartment buildings.

All we are asking for is for NIMBYs to leave everyone else alone.

 

[fskimospy]

Right but how do you balance that against the need to maintain green spaces? It's pretty irresponsible to just checkerboard the entire planet with single family homes.

I completely agree. Density makes more green space, not less.

 

[fskimospy]

I imagine if it was financially possible, most would live in a single family home. Lots like the beehive insanity I guess, I hate it though.

Yes, if everyone were rich then they would live in rich person homes.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I completely agree. Density makes more green space, not less.

Let me take a step back because I think we've got a crossed wire. Do you think that maintaining/fostering nature is a moral (for lack of a better word) prerogative for humanity?

 

[Zorba]

Because both things are completely inseparable.

This is so dumb. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

I really have no idea what point you are attempting to make. You are trying to talk in absolutes that aren't absolute.

 

[fskimospy]

Let me take a step back because I think we've got a crossed wire. Do you think that maintaining/fostering nature is a moral (for lack of a better word) prerogative for humanity?

No, it is not.

The moral prerogative is the highest standard of living for the most people.

I want people to have good lives.

 

[fskimospy]

I really have no idea what point you are attempting to make. You are trying to talk in absolutes that aren't absolute.

Well then we can agree we have no idea what the other person is trying to say - lol.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

No, it is not.

The moral prerogative is the highest standard of living for the most people.

I want people to have good lives.

Alright, that's the crossed wire. I personally feel that the earth is not a consumable resource for us to exploit to the fullest extent for us to feel as comfortable as we desire. Standard of living has no limit so it's inevitably destructive.

 

[fskimospy]

Alright, that's the crossed wire. I personally feel that the earth is not a consumable resource for us to exploit to the fullest extent for us to feel as comfortable as we desire. Standard of living has no limit so it's inevitably destructive.

Okay so there we disagree.

I don’t know you but I suspect you’re a relatively well off person. I would ask you to consider if people who are less well off would make the same choice.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Okay so there we disagree.

I don’t know you but I suspect you’re a relatively well off person. I would ask you to consider if people who are less well off would make the same choice.

Not that well off, I sacrifice my own standard of living to an extent to minimize my impact and help foster nature to the extent I can keep up. I'm better off than most globally of course and I'm sure I'd have a different opinion if I missed more meals. I just think we could do better.

Agree to disagree, though.

 

[fskimospy]

Not that well off, I sacrifice my own standard of living to an extent to minimize my impact and help foster nature to the extent I can keep up. I'm better off than most globally of course and I'm sure I'd have a different opinion if I missed more meals. I just think we could do better.

Agree to disagree, though.

Median US household income (meaning two earners in most cases) is $75k.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Median US household income (meaning two earners in most cases) is $75k.

That's where I was until very recently. I've always stated that I acknowledge my own privilege in that regard, though.

For my age I'm above median, household is well below median however.

 

[fskimospy]

That's where I was until very recently. I've always stated that I acknowledge my own privilege in that regard, though.

For my age I'm above median, household is well below median however.

Well I can’t speak for you and I respect that.

 

[MtnMan]

I have a friend(?) who I considered a reasonable intelligent man, especially in the world of finance. This is based on his profession (retired) and his apparent financial stability in retirement. He lives in an HOA area. He is on the HOA board, was the treasurer at one time, and they (the HOA) seems rather tame compared to some of the horror stories we hear about HOA's.

When they moved to the area, after renting for a while, they bought in this HOA area. Don't think it was his desire, as he could no longer keep his motorcycle, and his story is now, "it was time to give up riding". Think the truth is, his wife pressured him into moving there.

He talks about how the HOA maintains the roads, picks up the trash, plows when it snows (2 - 3 times a year here). I said I get all the same, from the city, without being in an HOA. His area is also in the city, and he pays city taxes. He actually believes they get a discount on city taxes because of the HOA. When I quizzed him on trash/recycle pickup, it's the same "city" trucks that pick mind up. City trucks that plow the street when it snows.

I looked his tax bill up (public record), nope, he pays the same rate I do based on assessed property value.

 

[MtnMan]

I don't remember seeing any basement without windows here. Mom's basement included.

Well technically this is a basement window, and what a panoramic view it provides.

 

[Zorba]

I have a friend(?) who I considered a reasonable intelligent man, especially in the world of finance. This is based on his profession (retired) and his apparent financial stability in retirement. He lives in an HOA area. He is on the HOA board, was the treasurer at one time, and they (the HOA) seems rather tame compared to some of the horror stories we hear about HOA's.

When they moved to the area, after renting for a while, they bought in this HOA area. Don't think it was his desire, as he could no longer keep his motorcycle, and his story is now, "it was time to give up riding". Think the truth is, his wife pressured him into moving there.

He talks about how the HOA maintains the roads, picks up the trash, plows when it snows (2 - 3 times a year here). I said I get all the same, from the city, without being in an HOA. His area is also in the city, and he pays city taxes. He actually believes they get a discount on city taxes because of the HOA. When I quizzed him on trash/recycle pickup, it's the same "city" trucks that pick mind up. City trucks that plow the street when it snows.

I looked his tax bill up (public record), nope, he pays the same rate I do based on assessed property value.

HOAs mostly exist because the city can dump a ton of responsibilities on to them. The city makes use maintain the drainage off their streets, cut the trees in their right of way, maintain the ditches in their right of way, mow all the the right of ways and common areas. Plus a ton of HOAs put in parks and pools that deburden cities. The big secret is, at least in Oklahoma, nearly all HOA maintained areas are public, not private regardless of what the signs say.

I think the raise of HOAs coincides with the raise of proper flood/runoff control so the cities weren't forced maintain detention ponds and drainage in neighborhoods.

I am guessing he might be mistaken what the city does versus the HOA, though.

For $600 a year, I get a nice pool fully maintained by someone else, a very nice playground, 11 acres of maintained green space, 3 acres of stocked ponds, more than a mile of walking paths, drainage cleared out and repaired so I don't have to worry about flooding. Every HOA is different, but they aren't all some big evil conspiracy. We also have a pet duck.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

HOAs mostly exist because the city can dump a ton of responsibilities on to them. The city makes use maintain the drainage off their streets, cut the trees in their right of way, maintain the ditches in their right of way, mow all the the right of ways and common areas. Plus a ton of HOAs put in parks and pools that deburden cities. The big secret is, at least in Oklahoma, nearly all HOA maintained areas are public, not private regardless of what the signs say.

I think the raise of HOAs coincides with the raise of proper flood/runoff control so the cities weren't forced maintain detention ponds and drainage in neighborhoods.

I am guessing he might be mistaken what the city does versus the HOA, though.

For $600 a year, I get a nice pool fully maintained by someone else, a very nice playground, 11 acres of maintained green space, 3 acres of stocked ponds, more than a mile of walking paths, drainage cleared out and repaired so I don't have to worry about flooding. Every HOA is different, but they aren't all some big evil conspiracy. We also have a pet duck.

I'd argue that HA's arose almost exclusively from classism, and to a minor extent racism. The restrictions on individuality and DIY that's in public view while still being completely dependent on public services and interpersonal relations smacks of bourgeoisies. It's like if you gave a pack of libertarians an unlimited bank account.

 

[Zorba]

I'd argue that HA's arose almost exclusively from classism, and to a minor extent racism. The restrictions on individuality and DIY that's in public view while still being completely dependent on public services and interpersonal relations smacks of bourgeoisies. It's like if you gave a pack of libertarians an unlimited bank account.

Restrictions on DIY?

I haven't studied the original of HOA or their raise, but I do know cities dump a ton of responsibilities on to them around here won't approve a neighborhood without one because they don't want to be responsible for the retention ponds and drainage. Condos and townhome complexes have the same thing as well.

I am sure a ton of the restrictive covenants are a direct result of classium and racism, but you can have covenants without and HOA and have an HOA without restrictive covenants.

 

[MtnMan]

HOAs mostly exist because the city can dump a ton of responsibilities on to them. The city makes use maintain the drainage off their streets, cut the trees in their right of way, maintain the ditches in their right of way, mow all the the right of ways and common areas. Plus a ton of HOAs put in parks and pools that deburden cities. The big secret is, at least in Oklahoma, nearly all HOA maintained areas are public, not private regardless of what the signs say.

I think the raise of HOAs coincides with the raise of proper flood/runoff control so the cities weren't forced maintain detention ponds and drainage in neighborhoods.

I am guessing he might be mistaken what the city does versus the HOA, though.

For $600 a year, I get a nice pool fully maintained by someone else, a very nice playground, 11 acres of maintained green space, 3 acres of stocked ponds, more than a mile of walking paths, drainage cleared out and repaired so I don't have to worry about flooding. Every HOA is different, but they aren't all some big evil conspiracy. We also have a pet duck.

My friend does get some services, but he is also double paying for some services, i.e. trash, recycling, street maintenance, including snow plowing. He "thinks" he pays a lower property tax rate because of the HOA, but looking up his tax bill, he pays the same rate as anyone in the city.

No pool, but some kind of "clubhouse" and a tennis court or two, and they mow his yard, all for $325 a month. But his wife is happy because he had to sell his motorcycle.

He has the same city provided trash and recycling cans I have, 90 gallon wheeled carts with the city logo, and the same kind of city truck picks them up and dumps them in the truck.

 

[Zorba]

My friend does get some services, but he is also double paying for some services, i.e. trash, recycling, street maintenance, including snow plowing. He "thinks" he pays a lower property tax rate because of the HOA, but looking up his tax bill, he pays the same rate as anyone in the city.

No pool, but some kind of "clubhouse" and a tennis court or two, and they mow his yard, all for $325 a month. But his wife is happy because he had to sell his motorcycle.

He has the same city provided trash and recycling cans I have, 90 gallon wheeled carts with the city logo, and the same kind of city truck picks them up and dumps them in the truck.

I'm guessing if all that is accurate, it has private roads that city will not service without payment. Is it gated? Never heard of an HOA in a city messing with trash/recycling. I've really never heard of an HOA banning motorcycles, have no idea how that could even be enforced.

Lots of people move into neighbors with private roads, then bitch about how much their dues are. Roads are expensive to maintain.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Restrictions on DIY?

Attempt to even wash a vehicle, much less pop the hood, in an average HOA. Extend the example to painting, home maintenance, or virtually any project involving a power tool.