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Something to consider when pushing housing density.

M

Moonbeam

Elite Member
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Human nature means that humans reflect natural properties they acquired over vast spans of time by adapting to survive the natural world. We are mirrors of our evolutionary history. Removed from contact with the natural world looks to be unhealthy.
 
Oh nose. We cannot have density at all.

parks.canada.ca

Rouge National Urban Park

Plan your visit to Rouge National Urban Park in the Greater Toronto Area. Discover nature, culture, agriculture, activities, how to get here and more.
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NYC area is 789 km² , of which 120 is green space. Increasing density means there is more land for green space...

Here are the best parks in my city.
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Best Parks in Markham For Easy Hikes and Forest Therapy

The best parks in Markham to explore the outdoors that feature great walking paths, hiking trails, forest therapy (Shinrin Yoku), Milne Dam and more!
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Increased housing density also increases the amount of available land for natural preservation.

www.portland.gov

Forest Park

Forest Park, at 5,200 acres, provides critical refuge for hundreds of native wildlife and plant species and acts as an important air and water filter. With more than 80 miles of trails, it also provides invaluable access to nature, exercise, and educational opportunities for the region.
www.portland.gov www.portland.gov
 
Vic said:
Increased housing density also increases the amount of available land for natural preservation.

www.portland.gov

Forest Park

Forest Park, at 5,200 acres, provides critical refuge for hundreds of native wildlife and plant species and acts as an important air and water filter. With more than 80 miles of trails, it also provides invaluable access to nature, exercise, and educational opportunities for the region.
www.portland.gov www.portland.gov
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I’m guessing you have a yard. How would building a house in it increase your contact with nature? Why do people even want yards? Who can afford to water?
 
sdifox said:
Oh nose. We cannot have density at all.

parks.canada.ca

Rouge National Urban Park

Plan your visit to Rouge National Urban Park in the Greater Toronto Area. Discover nature, culture, agriculture, activities, how to get here and more.
parks.canada.ca parks.canada.ca

NYC area is 789 km² , of which 120 is green space. Increasing density means there is more land for green space...

Here are the best parks in my city.
goingawesomeplaces.com

Best Parks in Markham For Easy Hikes and Forest Therapy

The best parks in Markham to explore the outdoors that feature great walking paths, hiking trails, forest therapy (Shinrin Yoku), Milne Dam and more!
goingawesomeplaces.com goingawesomeplaces.com
Click to expand...
How do poor children get themselves to national parks or even one’s blocks away? What is natural about life in a building that mat not even have windows.

My link suggests that life and density are not as psychically healthy as life in contact with nature. This only means that the more contact we have with the natural world the more mentally healthy we will be.

I suggested that might be something we should consider as we develop our future.
 
Moonbeam said:
How do poor children get themselves to national parks or even one’s blocks away? What is natural about life in a building that mat not even have windows.

My link suggests that life and density are not as psychically healthy as life in contact with nature. This only means that the more contact we have with the natural world the more mentally healthy we will be.

I suggested that might be something we should consider as we develop our future.
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What kind of dwelling do you live in that don't have windows?

I can walk to one of the parks I linked that has a trail in the woods. Shinrin Yoku as the Japanese call it. It is possble to have high density and green space, it's called Urban Planning. Think about Central Park in NYC, it is surrounded by tall condos. What is wrong with that?


You know what is weird? Americans complaining about density.
 
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Moonbeam said:
I’m guessing you have a yard. How would building a house in it increase your contact with nature? Why do people even want yards? Who can afford to water?
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I'm certainly no fan of pushing everyone into high rise housing, as is more common in some countries, but at the same time single family zoning in high demand areas is a de facto subsidy to existing property owners which needs to stop. It's unsustainable, environmentally bad, and creates homelessness and other unfair economic inequalities (like pricing a whole generation out of homeownership).
You'll still be able to get a yard and a garden outside the urban core.
 
fskimospy said:
Thread backfire!

Building up allows for more space for nature, not less.
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Not necessarily. Building tall makes building more cost effective, which results in more building, not less. You need regulation to keep green spaces available in cities. Unregulated capitalism necessarily paves green spaces to make more money per sq mile.
 
fskimospy said:
Thread backfire!

Building up allows for more space for nature, not less.
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Do you dispute the science? Do you dispute that the greater the density, the less exposure to the natural world happens there.

It is obvious that if you were to throw a bag of marbles on the floor there would be more bare floor if you swept them all in a corner but there would be less floor around each marble. If there is some advantage to a marble being surrounded by lots of floor, like a capacity to roll around, scattered marbles would have the advantage over ones in piled up in a corner. Having them all in a corner might be better for someone else using the floor, say to walk on and not break their neck. If you were in a position to determine what the future of civilization should look like would you not want to understand the psychic nature of people and their potential need for contact with nature for sound mental health?

As with everything else humans suggest to create a better future, someone's ox will be gored and some rationalizations will be inevitable. I remember hearing on the radio someone complaining we could not do away with MAD with regard to nuclear arms because the loss of jobs would be catastrophic. This is one of the reasons I often hold intellect in contempt. Who is going to care about job loss if we are all dead.

Density has tremendous economic value and other advantages as well, none of which will matter if we all go completely insane. People care about dangers they can see. There is no better blinders than certainty, in my opinion.
 
Vic said:
I'm certainly no fan of pushing everyone into high rise housing, as is more common in some countries, but at the same time single family zoning in high demand areas is a de facto subsidy to existing property owners which needs to stop. It's unsustainable, environmentally bad, and creates homelessness and other unfair economic inequalities (like pricing a whole generation out of homeownership).
You'll still be able to get a yard and a garden outside the urban core.
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Do you support the removal of people who bought in those areas before they increased in value and could not afford to stay there without property tax relief, people whose whole lives are tied to that community by elimination of those tax benefits. Those homes they now enjoy will be bought by people with far greater wealth who will also want to keep their neighborhoods low density, seems to me.

Seems to me also that wealth inequality and the tying of survival in society to having a job is the real cause of misery and homelessness. How much human misery is created by people paid so little they have to drive 2 hours to work at jobs that expensive cities would crumble in not performed. That could change if every job had to be within walking distance from home.
 
Moonbeam said:
That could change if every job had to be within walking distance from home.
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I have bought my house 400m from my work, 7km to a national park, 3km to the beach, 1km to my childrens school, 15km to an airport and 25km to the 2nd largest city in Denmark. It is good 🙂
 
biostud said:
I have bought my house 400m from my work, 7km to a national park, 3km to the beach, 1km to my childrens school, 15km to an airport and 25km to the 2nd largest city in Denmark. It is good 🙂
Click to expand...
Do you need to worry about wolves? I got cayotes in the woods near my house.
 
Moonbeam said:
Do you support the removal of people who bought in those areas before they increased in value and could not afford to stay there without property tax relief, people whose whole lives are tied to that community by elimination of those tax benefits. Those homes they now enjoy will be bought by people with far greater wealth who will also want to keep their neighborhoods low density, seems to me.

Seems to me also that wealth inequality and the tying of survival in society to having a job is the real cause of misery and homelessness. How much human misery is created by people paid so little they have to drive 2 hours to work at jobs that expensive cities would crumble in not performed. That could change if every job had to be within walking distance from home.
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Property tax relief is the worst of those subsidies. After zoning, it is quite literally the single worst cause of homelessness and of people having to drive 2 hours to work because they can't afford to live near their work. Retired boomers getting paid to live close to employment centers at the expense of those working.
 
sdifox said:
Do you need to worry about wolves? I got cayotes in the woods near my house.
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The area of Portland I live in is tied by a series of largely interconnecting parks and natural areas, and the complaints about coyotes on my nextdoor feed is pretty much nonstop. FFS keep your cats inside, people.
 
Vic said:
The area of Portland I live in is tied by a series of largely interconnecting parks and natural areas, and the complaints about coyotes on my nextdoor feed is pretty much nonstop. FFS keep your cats inside, people.
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I can hear them howl lol. I get visits from deers and other critters at my front lawn.

Funny thing is we got NIMBYs bitching about too much development in my area 🙄
 
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Moonbeam said:
This isn't far from where I live. Coyotes sightings have been reported here as well as people hearing them at night.

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I have crossed paths with a wolf while walking in the Rouge National Urban Park. Good thing it was a singular one...
 
Vic said:
Property tax relief is the worst of those subsidies. After zoning, it is quite literally the single worst cause of homelessness and of people having to drive 2 hours to work because they can't afford to live near their work. Retired boomers getting paid to live close to employment centers at the expense of those working.
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The poor don't pay for income they earn until a certain point. Businesses get all kinds of tax breaks. You can depreciate property even though its value goes up and up, I think. Do you agree there are boomers as you describe who could not pay the current tax rate or bought without the slightest idea their properties would skyrocket in price? These folk in California voted for prop 13 to protect themselves from eviction due to skyrocketing property tax rates. Do you favor using a change in the law to force them to sell? If you force them to move do you think some homeless person or long distance commuter will be the ones to replace them. I imagine that if there were 20 unites on my land they would all sell for the price of my home today. The taxes, of course, would be astronomical by comparison and maybe go to infrastructure that would make those unites even more valuable.

What do you think of this:


It was written, of course, by a human self reflecting, not an AI.
 
sdifox said:
I can hear them howl lol. I get visits from deers and other critters at my front lawn.

Funny thing is we got NIMBYs bitching about too much development in my area 🙄
Click to expand...
People imagine they can see the future as an extension of the past. The natural world as it has been is going extinct.
 
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