Fayd
Diamond Member
1: bar owners have every right to kick anyone out for any reason, or for no reason at all. that's a right i fully support.
2: Bar owners should have every right to decide for themselves whether they choose to allow smokers in their establishments. the idea that they should be forced to not allow smoking in a PRIVATE BUSINESS ESTABLISHMENT, is ludicrous.
Like to highlight personal experience here in Ohio as well. I lived in Columbus for a few years, where the smoking ban had already been in effect. Bar sales over time actually increased. I moved back to Cleveland after graduation and have seen pretty much the same thing: bars enforcing the ban get more business. Holes in the wall that still reek of smoke and/or allow smokers to smoke get less business and are closing.
prolly because you are not a smoker. but lets say you are a car connosieur, and like fast cars, and like driving fast, making a lot of noise in the street. lets say they were making a law that would forbid doing major stuff to your car such has turbo, supercharger, boring/stroking, heads/cams, etc... because their justification is that it will cause more accidents because now you are more power under the hood, it will kill or injure more pedestrians in street races which increases health care costs, it is louder and therefore is a noise violation, causes more pollution which causes global warming, etc... of course there are already strict laws about car mods such as california, but what if the majority of the people don't care about modding their cars to go fast, and only see cars to going from point A to point B, and they tell you "i could care less about modding my car, it should all be illegal since there is no point having a 600HP car, it only encourages street racing, and they are loud and smell bad, etc..."
or how bout implementing a $5K luxury tax for new cars that are fast enough to be in the 13's in the quarter mile because the majority of the people could care less about fast cars??
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
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My industry is affected every year by new environmental and safety regulations. Some of these make previous business illegal, and some force price increases that reduce total demand.
As long as the regulation has a legitimate purpose, and accomplishes this, it's hard to feel truly 'cheated'. Personal choice only carries you so far when you live in a real world with real people.
I can believe that a few bars might have smoking bans to partially blame for lost business, or even closing, but unless you have some extreme demographic oddities going on, they simply will not kill or permanently cripple the industry.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,452
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Has any single new law cut your business by 40-50%?
How is robbing property owners of their freedoms "legitimate"? How in allowing one segment of society to dictate the other segemt's freedoms "legitimate"?
OK, you can keep questioning the numbers, or just accept them and discuss them. It's up to you.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
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Edit - on second thought, forget it, I'm tired of wasting my time on this, so let's pretend you're right. I suppose smoking shouldn't be banned in train stations, either.
Logical fallacies ahoy!
For starters, smokers aren't eh majority and there is a reason for that. Cl
The government didn't tell people to vote this way. If you don't like a system where majority rules, you're in the wrong country.
please excuse bad spelling if any as my browerse sucks
Edit: And yeah, for the record, I'm perfectly fine witht h the government enfforcing thins t that the people of this country have approved via voting. Don't like it? P Make a motion to repeal it ont he next ballot or cry to an internet forum that your rights are being raped.
"let's say... let's say.... let's ssay... blah blah blah"
DOESN'T MATTER. This has NOTHING to do with cars. But we'll keep you in mind when that debate rolls around.
and for the record, there are restictions on modifications that can make cars not street legal.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,452
- 19,911
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If you think our government is based on majority rules you have no idea what a representative Constitutional Republic is and desperately need to go back to school.
There are no logical fallacies in my argument. He thinks majority rules is a good thing simply because he is among the majority. I merely asked him to look at it from the viewpoint of the minority.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,452
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Most train stations are not private property. In that case the government can fully decide what to ban, and what not to.
And your argument is moot since smoking was voluntarily banned in all train stations and airports (some had separate rooms) long before the government bans. In fact, the vast majority of businesses had voluntary bans long before the legal ones came about.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
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Yep, I saw that when I was at the Lucky Eagle Casino north of Centralia. And yet the non-Indian casinos in WA state (like those in La Center, WA) are struggling because they're banned from allowing smoking just like all the other bars. But drive to an Indian casino where the smokers can puff to their lungs' content. Worst still for those non-Indian casinos in La Center, talks are in the works to build an Indian casino on I-5 at the La Center exit.
But hey, we're talking about the state that made online gambling a felony... of course, the fact that the state rep who sponsored that legislation gets a ton of campaign financing from the Indian casinos had absolutely nothing to do with that...
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
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I always find it odd when people call other people "selfish" just because they want things their way. Fscking hello.... ?
Smokers fully understand that non-smokers don't like the smell, but if you choose to walk into a smoky bar, their sympathy if going to be a little bit less than underwhelming. They were there first.
And yes, these votes are an outrageous abuse of democracy. Bars are primarily filled with younger people and guess what? YOUNG PEOPLE DO NOT VOTE. OTOH, grandma hasn't missed voting in an election since FDR, and she hasn't been inside a bar since FDR either. So the people voting on these issues are by and large not the ones affected.
Similar abuses of democracy are seen in cigarette taxes. The supermajority of all people don't smoke, and who doesn't like raising their neighbor's taxes without raising their own? Woohoo. That's a great deal if you're a selfish immoral prick without a shred of ethical sense.
So yeah, I'm a non-smoker, but I'm sick and tired of other non-smokers calling the smokers "selfish" while they're bending them over with democratic abuses and making them bite the pillow.
Too bad. I hate smoking. My vote represents me, not you, not the people at the bars smoking, not bar owners. ME. I will use my vote accordingly.
Your big mistake is assuming that we enjoy choosing where we want to go based on the smoke content of the bar. That's crappy. If it's a choice between a bar I can walk to and a bar that I have to get a cab for, I'd rather go to the bar that I can walk to. I don't want to have to pick that based on whether I'm going to smell like ****** coming out.
A smoker's right to smoke should not outweigh my right to NOT smoke... an and it's much less fair to tell me to go elsewhere because I don't like breathing in that vile ****** than to tell a smoker to take it outside. Again, I bring up that in Ohio, the bars that are staying full are the ones that are enforcing the ban.
I'm glad I voted for the ban and all the crybaby smokers can blow me. I'v I've put up with your ****** long enough, it's If you can't show some manners and try to keep it a minimum or keep it away from me, then you can't really blame me for thinking just as selfishly.
Say what you want about rights and crap like that, I don't give a rat's ass. Any other issue and I can say I'd have an open mind, but screw smokers.
No. Because I work in the IT field. Not sure what the correlation is there.
I did work at a company that allowed smoking in the break room and it freaking sucked until they banned it.
so when people have house parties they allow everyone to smoke in their home? I've never been to a house party where people were smoking inside but maybe i just dont have a lot of friends that smoke...
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Originally posted by: Robor
No. Because I work in the IT field. Not sure what the correlation is there.
I did work at a company that allowed smoking in the break room and it freaking sucked until they banned it.
The correlation is that you have a choice in where you work, just like bar employees do.
BTW, don't link to those asbestos litigation ambulance chasers like they have any credibility. They don't.
i've made this point earlier in the thread, but the "other side" has yet to address it:
i fail to see how a smoking ban robs property owners of their "freedoms" more than any other "safe workplace legislation". the end result is the same: the owner takes a financial hit to enhance the safety of his workers. in the case of a smoking ban, however, the financial hit is largely theoretical. few cities/states have had bans for long enough to determine if there are losses (or possibly even gains).
one could even argue that a bar has a greater obligation (in comparison to "normal" places of business) to provide a safe environment because it hosts the public as well as workers.
brandonbull
Diamond Member
- May 3, 2005
- 6,365
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When the smoking ban went into effect in FL, owners were crying about how they would go out of business. Well, they didn't. The ban affects establishments that has more than 10% of their revenue from food. Several bars stopped selling food so they can still allow smoking.
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