So when Obama says I can keep my doctor.....

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

Yes really. Where was this plan when GOP was in position to pass it?
Instead they voted to spend $1T on Medicare prescription drug benefit with no cost controls.
Seems like a diversion that they are only interested in proposing when there is no chance of it passing.

I don't know if you realized it or not, but dems have had both the house and senate for about 3 years. To use an obamabot's words "things have changed".

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

Yes really. Where was this plan when GOP was in position to pass it?
Instead they voted to spend $1T on Medicare prescription drug benefit with no cost controls.
Seems like a diversion that they are only interested in proposing when there is no chance of it passing.

And where are the cost controls in the Dems proposal, hmmm?

Are you for rationing to control costs? What kind of cost controls are you proposing beyond what's in the bill?

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

Yes really. Where was this plan when GOP was in position to pass it?
Instead they voted to spend $1T on Medicare prescription drug benefit with no cost controls.
Seems like a diversion that they are only interested in proposing when there is no chance of it passing.

I don't know if you realized it or not, but dems have had both the house and senate for about 3 years. To use an obamabot's words "things have changed".

And? What about 1994-2006? Where was the Republican health care reform, and what has it accomplished?

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: senseamp
And? What about 1994-2006? Where was the Republican health care reform, and what has it accomplished?

Amazing how the country didn't descend into the depths of hell without health care reform for the past 15 years.

Why do you think the VAST MAJORITY of people are against this? They have more to lose than to gain.

Do it right instead of doing it quickly. You want debate, have debate, but don't try and act like you want debate all the while you are shoving the bill through congress.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: senseamp


And? What about 1994-2006? Where was the Republican health care reform, and what has it accomplished?

So basically - bu, bu, but Bush/GOP?

I'm using your own talking points against you that things have changed, you're talking 15 years ago. According to Obama we are now in a crisis and must act immediately to eliminate private insurance for a single payer government controlled plan.

The people do not want this. Flat out, what the house has proposed is being exposed and the people are fighting against it. Poll, after poll, after poll. DO NOT WANT.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp


And? What about 1994-2006? Where was the Republican health care reform, and what has it accomplished?

So basically - bu, bu, but Bush/GOP?

I'm using your own talking points against you that things have changed, you're talking 15 years ago. According to Obama we are now in a crisis and must act immediately to eliminate private insurance for a single payer government controlled plan.

The people do not want this. Flat out, what the house has proposed is being exposed and the people are fighting against it. Poll, after poll, after poll. DO NOT WANT.

So basically you are for status quo?

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp


And? What about 1994-2006? Where was the Republican health care reform, and what has it accomplished?

So basically - bu, bu, but Bush/GOP?

I'm using your own talking points against you that things have changed, you're talking 15 years ago. According to Obama we are now in a crisis and must act immediately to eliminate private insurance for a single payer government controlled plan.

The people do not want this. Flat out, what the house has proposed is being exposed and the people are fighting against it. Poll, after poll, after poll. DO NOT WANT.

Its not about what the people want...

..They (the Democrats) know what is best for you...

...just shut up and take it

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp


And? What about 1994-2006? Where was the Republican health care reform, and what has it accomplished?

So basically - bu, bu, but Bush/GOP?

I'm using your own talking points against you that things have changed, you're talking 15 years ago. According to Obama we are now in a crisis and must act immediately to eliminate private insurance for a single payer government controlled plan.

The people do not want this. Flat out, what the house has proposed is being exposed and the people are fighting against it. Poll, after poll, after poll. DO NOT WANT.

So basically you are for status quo?

That talking point has already been dismissed and proven by polls. People do want reform, they do not want what the house has in front of them.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

Yes really. Where was this plan when GOP was in position to pass it?
Instead they voted to spend $1T on Medicare prescription drug benefit with no cost controls.
Seems like a diversion that they are only interested in proposing when there is no chance of it passing.

And where are the cost controls in the Dems proposal, hmmm?

Are you for rationing to control costs? What kind of cost controls are you proposing beyond what's in the bill?

Rationing already exists...

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp


And? What about 1994-2006? Where was the Republican health care reform, and what has it accomplished?

So basically - bu, bu, but Bush/GOP?

I'm using your own talking points against you that things have changed, you're talking 15 years ago. According to Obama we are now in a crisis and must act immediately to eliminate private insurance for a single payer government controlled plan.

The people do not want this. Flat out, what the house has proposed is being exposed and the people are fighting against it. Poll, after poll, after poll. DO NOT WANT.

So basically you are for status quo?

That talking point has already been dismissed and proven by polls. People do want reform, they do not want what the house has in front of them.

I don't see how polls can prove that, especially since the House does not even have a unified bill ready to make such an evaluation.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

Yes really. Where was this plan when GOP was in position to pass it?
Instead they voted to spend $1T on Medicare prescription drug benefit with no cost controls.
Seems like a diversion that they are only interested in proposing when there is no chance of it passing.

And where are the cost controls in the Dems proposal, hmmm?

Are you for rationing to control costs? What kind of cost controls are you proposing beyond what's in the bill?

Rationing already exists...

So, is it OK if public option rations care to control costs or not? Simple yes or no answer please.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
Just don't be surprised if you will have to live with status quo for a long time to come. There won't be health reform in this Congress and probably many years if current bill is defeated. There just won't be. The lessons that politicians will take away from this is that health care reform is third rail they shouldn't touch. Result will be STATUS QUO.

Then your anger is misdirected.

You should be angry with Congress for wasting their "one and only golden opportunity" to come up with well-conceived, limited, specific, and cost-effective reform.

That's who I'm mad at.

There's still plenty of time IF they pull their heads out of their asses and come up with a better plan. Perhaps you're right though... maybe they're just not up to the challenge. Maybe they're too fucking dumb to debate and eventually write GOOD legislation.

That would be sad.

But, what's more sad is your own willingness to see exceptionally lousy and potentially dangerous legislation passed for the sake of passing something.

It's a good legislation. Miles better than status quo.

I wholeheartedly disagree. And, unlike you and most of Congress, I've actually read most of the bill.

I want reform, but no way in hell do I want THIS version of reform.

So we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

I hope you realize that some people who oppose the current proposal, like me, also voted for Obama.

I really hoped that he would do better than this... I really did.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: senseamp

So, is it OK if public option rations care to control costs or not? Simple yes or no answer please.

No. I see your bait however and can predict your response.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp


And? What about 1994-2006? Where was the Republican health care reform, and what has it accomplished?

So basically - bu, bu, but Bush/GOP?

I'm using your own talking points against you that things have changed, you're talking 15 years ago. According to Obama we are now in a crisis and must act immediately to eliminate private insurance for a single payer government controlled plan.

The people do not want this. Flat out, what the house has proposed is being exposed and the people are fighting against it. Poll, after poll, after poll. DO NOT WANT.

So basically you are for status quo?

That talking point has already been dismissed and proven by polls. People do want reform, they do not want what the house has in front of them.

I don't see how polls can prove that, especially since the House does not even have a unified bill ready to make such an evaluation.

Then YOUR reality of not understanding the polls is YOUR problem, not ours.

And I will answer your question for me...current legislation of keep whats in place? I'll keep whats in place. Change is not always better.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
I wholeheartedly disagree. And, unlike you and most of Congress, I've actually read most of the bill.

I want reform, but no way in hell do I want THIS version of reform.

So we'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree.

Just look at what COMPETITION did in the phone market. How much did it cost just 10 to 15 years ago to make a long distance phone call? Why do you get "free long distance" now? DEREGULATION.

Note: Deregulation is different than oversight. You can increase oversight but reduce regulation.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

Yes really. Where was this plan when GOP was in position to pass it?
Instead they voted to spend $1T on Medicare prescription drug benefit with no cost controls.
Seems like a diversion that they are only interested in proposing when there is no chance of it passing.

And where are the cost controls in the Dems proposal, hmmm?

Are you for rationing to control costs? What kind of cost controls are you proposing beyond what's in the bill?

Rationing already exists...

So, is it OK if public option rations care to control costs or not? Simple yes or no answer please.

Its not a yes or no question. Rationing does NOT control costs. So I guess the answer is no, since public option rationing WONT control costs.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Contrary to the ststements of our good friend theskinsfan, what the CBO actually says is that 9 million will be dropped by their employer in this new system. Sad right? Well the same estimate also says that 12 million new people will be added through their employers due to this. Or in other wirds, an increase of 3 million. In addition, only 13% of businesses in america have payrolls above $500,000, so to cast this as some attack on small business is pretty absurd.

Things are so bad for the GOP they are now recycling "Obama says I can keep my doctor" talking points from 2 months ago --- they have to maintain the regurgitation so folks like BLABBER can post their salient fecal-filled OMG FEAR! articles like this:

Meanwhile, the independent Lewin Group estimates that 114 million Americans will be forced to give up their current health-care plans as the government-run plan puts everyone else out of business.

Oh, darn. Lookie what I found:

To Rep. Eric Cantor of Virginia, the House Republican whip, it is "the nonpartisan Lewin Group." To Republicans on the House Ways and Means Committee, it is an "independent research firm." To Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, the second-ranking Republican on the pivotal Finance Committee, it is "well known as one of the most nonpartisan groups in the country."

Generally left unsaid amid all the citations is that the Lewin Group is wholly owned by UnitedHealth Group, one of the nation's largest insurers.

More specifically, the Lewin Group is part of Ingenix, a UnitedHealth subsidiary that was accused by the New York attorney general and the American Medical Association, a physician's group, of helping insurers shift medical expenses to consumers by distributing skewed data. Ingenix supplied its parent company and other insurers with data that allegedly understated the "usual and customary" doctor fees that insurers use to determine how much they will reimburse consumers for out-of-network care.

In January, UnitedHealth agreed to a $50 million settlement with the New York attorney general and a $350 million settlement with the AMA, covering conduct going back as far as 1994.

really, really bad F-A-I-L




:laugh:

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

Yes really. Where was this plan when GOP was in position to pass it?
Instead they voted to spend $1T on Medicare prescription drug benefit with no cost controls.
Seems like a diversion that they are only interested in proposing when there is no chance of it passing.

And where are the cost controls in the Dems proposal, hmmm?

Are you for rationing to control costs? What kind of cost controls are you proposing beyond what's in the bill?

I'm quite sure he only believes in rationing for OTHER people, not himself.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp


And? What about 1994-2006? Where was the Republican health care reform, and what has it accomplished?

So basically - bu, bu, but Bush/GOP?

I'm using your own talking points against you that things have changed, you're talking 15 years ago. According to Obama we are now in a crisis and must act immediately to eliminate private insurance for a single payer government controlled plan.

The people do not want this. Flat out, what the house has proposed is being exposed and the people are fighting against it. Poll, after poll, after poll. DO NOT WANT.

They don't want the status quo either. The election proved that.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

nvm.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

What do you mean "solution"?

Only a SMALL MINORITY do not have insurance and are in a situation where they do not have insurance because they CHOOSE to not have insurance.

The VAST MAJORITY of people are satisfied or very satisfied with the current health care system in the USA.

Now, no one is saying that the current system cannot be tweaked to improve health care but a major change of course such as Obama is purposing is no needed or necessary.

Only a SMALL MINORITY of people have to drink out of that shitty warm drinking fountain over there.

The VAST MAJORITY of people get to drink from this freshly cleaned, refrigerated to nearly ice-cold drinking fountain over here.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

Yes really. Where was this plan when GOP was in position to pass it?
Instead they voted to spend $1T on Medicare prescription drug benefit with no cost controls.
Seems like a diversion that they are only interested in proposing when there is no chance of it passing.

And where are the cost controls in the Dems proposal, hmmm?

Are you for rationing to control costs? What kind of cost controls are you proposing beyond what's in the bill?

I don't know about him, but I'm for reducing costs to a REASONABLE level to control costs, by any means necessary.

By reasonable, I mean that I am completely OK with paying the hospital 100 - 200% premium over their COST. That means they make 100 - 200% PROFIT. I would also extend the same to suppliers and pharma companies.


If a cotton bandage cost $1 to manufacture, I'm completely OK paying $3 for it. I'm not OK paying $25 for it.

If a pill cost $0.05 to manufacture, I'm completely OK paying $0.15 for it. I'm not OK paying $20 for it.

If a heart transplant costs $20,000, I'm completely OK paying $60,000 for it. I'm not OK paying $500,000 for it.

Make sense?



EDIT: Before someone says something about drug / device R&D. I would even be OK with a second 200% PROFIT (over manufacturing costs) for the first five to ten years that a device is available.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp


And? What about 1994-2006? Where was the Republican health care reform, and what has it accomplished?

So basically - bu, bu, but Bush/GOP?

I'm using your own talking points against you that things have changed, you're talking 15 years ago. According to Obama we are now in a crisis and must act immediately to eliminate private insurance for a single payer government controlled plan.

The people do not want this. Flat out, what the house has proposed is being exposed and the people are fighting against it. Poll, after poll, after poll. DO NOT WANT.

Its not about what the people want...

..They (the Democrats) know what is best for you...

...just shut up and take it

Just like the Republicans knew that we all wanted to go fight a pointless war in Iraq, for no reason at all, since it's been proven there was no connection to 9/11. Right?

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
I wholeheartedly disagree. And, unlike you and most of Congress, I've actually read most of the bill.

I want reform, but no way in hell do I want THIS version of reform.

So we'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree.

Just look at what COMPETITION did in the phone market. How much did it cost just 10 to 15 years ago to make a long distance phone call? Why do you get "free long distance" now? DEREGULATION.

Note: Deregulation is different than oversight. You can increase oversight but reduce regulation.

Or, it could be that they broke up this small 99.9%-of-the-market monopoly called AT&T. Maybe.

But that probably has nothing to do with it.