So when Obama says I can keep my doctor.....

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Athena

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,484
0
0
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
If/when the government implements a "public option" safety net, the companies will be freed of that burden, so the only remaining factor for them to consider will be the effect coverage costs have on their bottom lines.

IOW, if the "penalties" end up being cheaper than the costs of providing coverage, they will drop their employer-based offerings immediately.

That's not necessarily so..or even probable. Employer-paid health care insurance in this country is an artifact of post war wage controls; since the couldn't offer more money, some companies added health coverage to be more competitive. Major corporations continue to compete for employees with their benefit plans, as does government at all levels. Every industry has its benefits leader against which, all players are competing. The problem though, will not be the public plan, but the continued escalation of costs to everyone.

There is ZIP in any of the bills that are under discussion that would address that. What we should have is a public plan that includes everyone with private options to extend coverage for things that are not covered by the public plan.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
"many of those will drop their coverage if/when it becomes cheaper to pay the fines. "

Your opinion. Someone that can't grasp how income taxes work .... yeah, forgive me if I don't rally behind that prediction.
It's not just my opinion. The CBO and many other financial gurus, who have done the real math, have made the exact same predictions. It's not rocket science.

As for the tax mistake you bring up in every thread, I readily admitted the mistake when I made it. Hell, I even caveated my first post on that subject with "Please correct me if I'm wrong, but..." You corrected me, I admitted it, and yet you stalk me in every thread with that nonsense.

You're a fucking tool. :roll:
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
14,005
11,705
136
Yeah, every thread where you make vast sweeping economic predictions. :(

It seems I'm not the only one calling you on it either ...
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Small companies and those that are losing money simply can't afford to cover it.

Which is one reason (high coverage costs) that we DO need some type of limited reform or regulation -- just not the current pile of steaming shit that is making its way through Congress as we speak.

So some companies obviously could afford to let their entire workforce become uninsured, so there goes your entire argument.
Actually, that fact does nothing to dispel my argument. Small companies are a very important part of our economy, but they do not drive it. More companies DO offer coverage than not, and many of those that do will drop said coverage if/when it becomes cheaper to just pay the fines.
And with status quo they can drop coverage without paying fines. Now which is more likely to result in companies dropping coverage, them being fined or them not being fined for it?
Them dropping coverage is a real possibility either way, as I've frequently admitted every time I mentioned that the system does need some reform.

On the other hand, the fines themselves will take a severe toll on small business jobs.

The fact of the matter is that the current bill threatens to severely damage both large and small companies, and their employees, just in different ways.
Except of course the current bill exempts small businesses from fines, so they are way ahead of you.
Wrong. The current version now applies the fines to companies with payrolls larger than $500k, which still includes the majority of companies squarely in the "small business" category.

The entire "fine" portion of the bill, as it's currently written, is completely fucked up. The impacts the fines will have on both large and small businesses are unacceptable.

They need to keep working it until that is no longer the case.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: Athena
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
If/when the government implements a "public option" safety net, the companies will be freed of that burden, so the only remaining factor for them to consider will be the effect coverage costs have on their bottom lines.

IOW, if the "penalties" end up being cheaper than the costs of providing coverage, they will drop their employer-based offerings immediately.

That's not necessarily so..or even probable.
That's not what the CBO and many other financial gurus have said -- their predictions match my own. Many companies will weigh the costs and choose to drop coverage in favor of paying the fines.

Now, if Congress could come up with a way to lower coverage costs through limited regulation, that problem might solve itself. But that's not what's on the table.

Employer-paid health care insurance in this country is an artifact of post war wage controls; since the couldn't offer more money, some companies added health coverage to be more competitive. Major corporations continue to compete for employees with their benefit plans, as does government at all levels. Every industry has its benefits leader against which, all players are competing. The problem though, will not be the public plan, but the continued escalation of costs to everyone.

There is ZIP in any of the bills that are under discussion that would address that. What we should have is a public plan that includes everyone with private options to extend coverage for things that are not covered by the public plan.
I've told you before that I agree with many aspects of the French model, especially their concept of "supplemental private plans."

But, as you know, again, that's not at all what's on the table.

So here we are.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Yeah, every thread where you make vast sweeping economic predictions. :(

It seems I'm not the only one calling you on it either ...

Do you hang "I won a forum warz" certificates on your wall? :roll:
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
14,005
11,705
136
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Yeah, every thread where you make vast sweeping economic predictions. :(

It seems I'm not the only one calling you on it either ...

Do you hang "I won a forum warz" certificates on your wall? :roll:

Your personal shots have nothing to do with the topic. Me questioning your grasp of basics has everything to do with the credibility of your suppositions on the topic.

Back on topic: since I did your google work for you before, care to point out where CBO report says that "many" companies will cut their privately provided coverage? Can't seem to find it in any of the synopsis' from the "gurus". Thx.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Back on topic: since I did your google work for you before, care to point out where CBO report says that "many" companies will cut their privately provided coverage? Can't seem to find it in any of the synopsis' from the "gurus". Thx.

If you're going to argue semantics -- the difference between "some" and "many" -- I'm not going to bother. Feel free to change the word in your head every time you read it, but my points will still stand.

Putting aside references for a moment, let me list the likely impact the proposed fines will have on each type of business.

IN MY OPINION...

SECTION 1. Smaller Businesses
For those with payrolls over $500k who do NOT currently offer their employees coverage -- the impact of a 2% to 8% fine will likely result in:
a. Job cuts
b. Higher consumer prices for each companies' products and services
c. Reductions in other employee benefits
d. Less money for R&D and other investment aspects of each business.

SECTION 2. Larger Businesses
For those larger companies that do currently offer employer-based coverage options, the fines will likely result in the company weighing the costs of current coverage options vs. the costs of the levied fines. For many (some?) such companies, the fines would cost substantially less than what they're paying in current coverage fees. So, given the newly created "public option" safety net, the companies will no longer have to worry about their workforce becoming uninsured. As a result, they will likely drop the coverage options and choose to pay the fine instead.

YOUR CHALLENGE:
Using logic and an articulate argument, please demonstrate alternative outcomes for each section above. Use the currently proposed legislation as your list of conditions.

Good luck.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Small companies and those that are losing money simply can't afford to cover it.

Which is one reason (high coverage costs) that we DO need some type of limited reform or regulation -- just not the current pile of steaming shit that is making its way through Congress as we speak.

So some companies obviously could afford to let their entire workforce become uninsured, so there goes your entire argument.
Actually, that fact does nothing to dispel my argument. Small companies are a very important part of our economy, but they do not drive it. More companies DO offer coverage than not, and many of those that do will drop said coverage if/when it becomes cheaper to just pay the fines.
And with status quo they can drop coverage without paying fines. Now which is more likely to result in companies dropping coverage, them being fined or them not being fined for it?
Them dropping coverage is a real possibility either way, as I've frequently admitted every time I mentioned that the system does need some reform.

On the other hand, the fines themselves will take a severe toll on small business jobs.

The fact of the matter is that the current bill threatens to severely damage both large and small companies, and their employees, just in different ways.
Except of course the current bill exempts small businesses from fines, so they are way ahead of you.
Wrong. The current version now applies the fines to companies with payrolls larger than $500k, which still includes the majority of companies squarely in the "small business" category.

The entire "fine" portion of the bill, as it's currently written, is completely fucked up. The impacts the fines will have on both large and small businesses are unacceptable.

They need to keep working it until that is no longer the case.

Which companies do you want to punish, ones that provide health care, or ones that don't? Pick one.
Under status quo, we are punishing ones that provide it by sticking them with unpaid health care bills of employees of those that don't.
We are effectively fining companies that provide health care to subsidize those who don't.
What's on the table is the reform we need. Alternative is status quo. There is not going to be health care reform for a long time if this is defeated, there simply won't be the political environment for it. So don't be surprised if more companies drop coverage, since status quo is creating every incentive for them to do so.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
14,005
11,705
136
I'm not arguing semantics. You used "many" in the post I quoted ...

And I still only see your opinion. Where are all the gurus?
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Back on topic: since I did your google work for you before, care to point out where CBO report says that "many" companies will cut their privately provided coverage? Can't seem to find it in any of the synopsis' from the "gurus". Thx.

If you're going to argue semantics -- the difference between "some" and "many" -- I'm not going to bother. Feel free to change the word in your head every time you read it, but my points will still stand.

Putting aside references for a moment, let me list the likely impact the proposed fines will have on each type of business.

IN MY OPINION...

SECTION 1. Smaller Businesses
For those with payrolls over $500k who do NOT currently offer their employees coverage -- the impact of a 2% to 8% fine will likely result in:
a. Job cuts
b. Higher consumer prices for each companies' products and services
c. Reductions in other employee benefits
d. Less money for R&D
What you are ignoring is the impact on companies that do provide coverage for their employees. They will not have to subsidize unpaid ER and hospital bills from employees of companies who don't, resulting in more money to spend on jobs, R&D, lower prices to consumer, or increases in other employee benefits, which will offset cuts in those companies that are saddling everyone else with their employees health care costs.
So status quo rewards those who don't provide benefits, while reform rewards those who do.
SECTION 2. Larger Businesses
For those larger companies that do currently offer employer-based coverage options, the fines will likely result in the company weighing the costs of current coverage options vs. the costs of the levied fines. For many (some?) such companies, the fines would cost substantially less than what they're paying in current coverage fees. So, given the newly created "public option" safety net, the companies will no longer have to worry about their workforce becoming uninsured. As a result, they will likely drop the coverage options and choose to pay the fine instead.

YOUR CHALLENGE:
Using logic and an articulate argument, please demonstrate alternative outcomes for each section above. Use the currently proposed legislation as your list of conditions.

Good luck.

Companies are more likely to drop coverage under status quo when there is no fine and they are forced to absorb the cost of the uninsured in their premiums and subsidize their competitors who don't provide coverage. Companies worry about the bottom line and competitiveness, and they'd be suckers to continue covering their employees plus their competitors employees' unpaid hospital bills.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Small companies and those that are losing money simply can't afford to cover it.

Which is one reason (high coverage costs) that we DO need some type of limited reform or regulation -- just not the current pile of steaming shit that is making its way through Congress as we speak.

So some companies obviously could afford to let their entire workforce become uninsured, so there goes your entire argument.
Actually, that fact does nothing to dispel my argument. Small companies are a very important part of our economy, but they do not drive it. More companies DO offer coverage than not, and many of those that do will drop said coverage if/when it becomes cheaper to just pay the fines.
And with status quo they can drop coverage without paying fines. Now which is more likely to result in companies dropping coverage, them being fined or them not being fined for it?
Them dropping coverage is a real possibility either way, as I've frequently admitted every time I mentioned that the system does need some reform.

On the other hand, the fines themselves will take a severe toll on small business jobs.

The fact of the matter is that the current bill threatens to severely damage both large and small companies, and their employees, just in different ways.
Except of course the current bill exempts small businesses from fines, so they are way ahead of you.
Wrong. The current version now applies the fines to companies with payrolls larger than $500k, which still includes the majority of companies squarely in the "small business" category.

The entire "fine" portion of the bill, as it's currently written, is completely fucked up. The impacts the fines will have on both large and small businesses are unacceptable.

They need to keep working it until that is no longer the case.

Which companies do you want to punish, ones that provide health care, or ones that don't? Pick one.
No. I choose "neither."

Under status quo, we are punishing ones that provide it by sticking them with unpaid health care bills of employees of those that don't.
OK. Agreed. Now, please tell me how the current proposal will address that fact without being detrimental to either type of company or their employees.

We are effectively fining companies that provide health care to subsidize those who don't. What's on the table is the reform we need. Alternative is status quo.
Why the hell is it all or nothing? There are 1000001 possibilities in between the current proposal and the status quo. I'm guessing that you only go that route because it's too challenging for you to argue against those of us who do support some reform, just not the current proposal that's on the table.

What's on the table now is complete garbage.

There is not going to be health care reform for a long time if this is defeated, there simply won't be the political environment for it. So don't be surprised if more companies drop coverage, since status quo is creating every incentive for them to do so.
Your Democrats are guaranteed -- sans catastrophe -- to have the same number of votes in both houses until late December 2010... that is nearly 18 months!

So why the OMG!11!!!111! need to rush?

They need to take their fucking time and get this thing right damnit.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
So what does this have to do with Obama/
By virtue of being the POTUS he and his family is afforded the best care in the world!
Which is the way it should be.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Small companies and those that are losing money simply can't afford to cover it.

Which is one reason (high coverage costs) that we DO need some type of limited reform or regulation -- just not the current pile of steaming shit that is making its way through Congress as we speak.

So some companies obviously could afford to let their entire workforce become uninsured, so there goes your entire argument.
Actually, that fact does nothing to dispel my argument. Small companies are a very important part of our economy, but they do not drive it. More companies DO offer coverage than not, and many of those that do will drop said coverage if/when it becomes cheaper to just pay the fines.
And with status quo they can drop coverage without paying fines. Now which is more likely to result in companies dropping coverage, them being fined or them not being fined for it?
Them dropping coverage is a real possibility either way, as I've frequently admitted every time I mentioned that the system does need some reform.

On the other hand, the fines themselves will take a severe toll on small business jobs.

The fact of the matter is that the current bill threatens to severely damage both large and small companies, and their employees, just in different ways.
Except of course the current bill exempts small businesses from fines, so they are way ahead of you.
Wrong. The current version now applies the fines to companies with payrolls larger than $500k, which still includes the majority of companies squarely in the "small business" category.

The entire "fine" portion of the bill, as it's currently written, is completely fucked up. The impacts the fines will have on both large and small businesses are unacceptable.

They need to keep working it until that is no longer the case.

Which companies do you want to punish, ones that provide health care, or ones that don't? Pick one.
No. I choose "neither."
neither = status quo by default
Under status quo, we are punishing ones that provide it by sticking them with unpaid health care bills of employees of those that don't.
OK. Agreed. Now, please tell me how the current proposal will address that fact without being detrimental to either type of company or their employees.
not going to happen. Either punish companies who provide coverage (status quo, default case) or punish those who don't (reform)
We are effectively fining companies that provide health care to subsidize those who don't. What's on the table is the reform we need. Alternative is status quo.
Why the hell is it all or nothing? There are 1000001 possibilities in between the current proposal and the status quo. I'm guessing that you only go that route because it's too challenging for you to argue against those of us who do support some reform, just not the current proposal that's on the table.

What's on the table now is complete garbage.
There is not going to be health care reform for a long time if this is defeated, there simply won't be the political environment for it. So don't be surprised if more companies drop coverage, since status quo is creating every incentive for them to do so.
Your Democrats are guaranteed -- sans catastrophe -- to have the same number of votes in both houses until late December 2010... that is nearly 18 months!
So why the OMG!11!!!111! need to rush?
They need to take their fucking time and get this thing right damnit.

You can bury your head in the sand, but don't delude yourself into thinking there will be other reform if this is defeated. Not for a long time. In the mean time, businesses who provide coverage will be punished with more and more unpaid costs priced into their premiums, while businesses who cut coverage will get a larger and larger competitive advantage.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
I would say that there are a lot of questions that still need to be asked to reach any level of clarity about what is being proposed. Notwithstanding the shout downs that are occurring as politicians fail to respond in public forums, the questions still need to be posed.

I found the following commentary to be interesting. It is by Dr. Tom Coburn (R.) a United States senator from Oklahoma, one of only two physicians in the Senate, along with John Barrasso of Wyoming.

Ten Questions Politicians Won?t Answer

August 10, 2009, 4:00 a.m.

Ten Questions Politicians Won?t Answer


Evasive politicians, not concerned citizens, are dividing America over health-care reform.


By Tom Coburn

The past week?s debate about health care has shown that in Washington the only things more stubborn than facts are politicians who evade them. In spite of a torrent of independent analyses showing that the so-called health-care ?reform? bills moving through Congress will dramatically increase the deficit and cause millions of Americans to lose their health insurance, the politicians leading the effort have steadfastly refused to consider that their ideas and policies, rather than the character of their critics, may be flawed. At the same time, the politicians writing the bill still refuse to answer basic questions about how it will be paid for and how it will affect patients.

The American people have good reason to be concerned. The fact is that President Obama and the vast majority of members who support the reform bills would set up a single-payer health-care system if they could start from scratch. In the meantime, according to their own explanations, they will settle for creating a public, government-run option in the context of our current employer-based health-insurance system. The American people know this because the president and many other Democrats have made this argument many times publicly.

Yet, what matters more than their past statements or current rhetoric is the likely effect of their legislation. According to independent sources, the health-care bills under consideration will dramatically increase the deficit, take away patient choice, and set the stage for a total government takeover of health care ? the single-payer model many Democrats have long dreamed of. As the head of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, Douglas Elmendorf, recently said, the bills moving through Congress did not contain ?the sort of fundamental changes that would be necessary to reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount. And on the contrary, the legislation significantly expands the federal responsibility for health-care costs.? Meanwhile, the independent Lewin Group estimates that 114 million Americans will be forced to give up their current health-care plans as the government-run plan puts everyone else out of business.

Congressional leaders and partisan operatives have responded to these policy indictments by inventing a bizarre conspiracy theory that involves right-wing extremists, the CBO, moderate Democrats, and insurance companies ? all of whom are somehow dreaming up ?scare tactics? while plotting to disrupt town-hall meetings. This line of attack is troubling because it goes far beyond traditional partisanship and instead indicts millions of hardworking taxpayers who have honest concerns.

For instance, according to a new DNC ad, individual Americans who oppose a government takeover of health care are not acting out of good faith, sound reasoning, and independent judgment, but rather are part of an ?angry mob? that lacks the intelligence to think critically and independently. The condescension underlying this claim is breathtaking, particularly when the entire strategy of public-option proponents depends on misdirection and subterfuge. Public-option advocates want the American people to believe ? in spite of their past statements ? that they aren?t trying to lay the groundwork for a total government takeover of health care, but instead are trying to create new choices. Fortunately, the American people aren?t buying it, and public-option proponents are now attacking the skeptics.

The backers of the public option are concerned because they know that their greatest obstacle is not the small minority of Republicans in Congress but the millions of Americans who will make members of their own party think twice about enacting a government takeover of health care. The budget-reconciliation fallback option ? a way to potentially steamroll reform through Congress this fall ? is an important clue to their intent. This option wasn?t established because of the Republican minority, which lacks the votes to mount a sustained defense, but because of the likely dissent of moderate Democrats. Public-option advocates know that many Democrats aren?t eager to sacrifice themselves on the altar of single-payer health care.

Individual Americans should view the month of August as their best, and perhaps final, opportunity to alter the health-care bills before Congress reconvenes in September. Citizens should ask hard questions without having their motives questioned. I expect such questions at my town-hall meetings. After all, the greater threat to freedom and liberty is not an informed citizenry but an irresponsible, elitist, and evasive political class that refuses to answer hard questions and make tough choices.

While I have confidence in the American people to come up with their own probing questions, let me suggest a few questions that my own colleagues have been loath to answer:

1. Why do we need to increase spending on health care by at least $1.6 trillion and steal prosperity from our children and grandchildren when we spend nearly twice per person what other industrialized nations spend on health care?

In my view, any bill that increases spending is a failure and not serious reform. The problem is not that we don?t spend enough on health care, but that we don?t allocate resources efficiently and get value for what we pay.

2. What programs will you cut and whose taxes will you raise to pay for health-care reform?

Any politician ? Republican or Democrat ? who refuses to answer this question or avoids the topic by deferring to the committees of jurisdiction doesn?t deserve to be in office.

3. What earmarks or pet projects that you have sponsored will you sacrifice to help finance the cost of health-care reform?

It is immoral, in my view, to ask taxpayers to make more sacrifices while politicians practice business-as-usual pork-barrel politics.

4. Will you vote for a public option that requires taxpayer-funded abortion?

The current version of the so-called reform bill requires taxpayer-funded abortion. In the House, this fact prompted 19 pro-life Democrats to send a letter of protest to Speaker Pelosi. In the Senate, an amendment by Barbara Mikulski (D., Md.) that would require taxpayer-funded abortion passed in committee. Sen. Bob Casey (D., Pa.) objected and voted no, saying, ?The way it [the Mikulski amendment] is written could be interpreted down the road to include something like abortion.? Are these Democrats also part of the right-wing scare-tactic conspiracy?

5. If the public option is so wonderful, will you lead by example and vote for a plan to enroll you and your family in the public option?

I offered an amendment in committee to force members of Congress to enroll in the public option. Nine out of eleven Democrats on the health committee who back the public option refused. If the politicians creating the public option don?t have confidence in it, neither should the American people.

6. Will you vote for a plan that will allow a board of politicians and bureaucrats to override decisions made by you and your doctor?

Both the Senate and House bills set up a government-run ?comparative effectiveness? board that will make final decisions about treatment and care. In committee, I gave senators several opportunities to accept language that would forbid this board from denying care. All of my amendments were rejected, which suggests that the intent is to set up a board that will ration care, as is done in the United Kingdom.

7. If you support a ?comparative effectiveness? board, what qualifies you, as a politician, to practice medicine? Have you delivered health care to a single person, much less entire classes of people you claim to represent, such as the poor, the uninsured, or children?

I?m one of two physicians in the Senate, along with John Barrasso of Wyoming. I know for a fact that very few leaders in this debate have any firsthand experience or knowledge of health care, which is disturbing.

8. How will a government-run public option perform better than other failing government programs, such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Indian Health Care?

Forty percent of doctors refuse to accept Medicaid patients because the program is broken. Access to a government program ? such as the public option ? does not guarantee access to health care.

9. If increasing spending on health care was the solution, why hasn?t it worked yet?

The public-option ?reform? is not new at all but an extension of 1960s-era public policies that say a little more government spending and intervention is always the answer.

10. Are you more committed to doing reform right or quickly? Would you consider backing a thoughtful alternative to the public option? If so, which one?

I?ve introduced a bill along with Sen. Richard Burr (R., N.C.) and Reps. Paul Ryan (R., Wisc.) and Devin Nunes (R., Calif.) called the Patient?s Choice Act that guarantees coverage and choice for every American without raising taxes or increasing spending. In fact, our bill will save taxpayers at least $70 billion. Many other members of Congress, both Republicans and Democrats, are working on alternatives that don?t herd the American people into a government-run program.

The choice is not between the public option and nothing. The choice is between the public option and an option that can win the support of the public. The future of health care truly is up to you.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,223
55,762
136
Contrary to the ststements of our good friend theskinsfan, what the CBO actually says is that 9 million will be dropped by their employer in this new system. Sad right? Well the same estimate also says that 12 million new people will be added through their employers due to this. Or in other wirds, an increase of 3 million. In addition, only 13% of businesses in america have payrolls above $500,000, so to cast this as some attack on small business is pretty absurd.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
The choice is between public option and nothing. This gets defeated and nothing will be done for a very long time. See 1993 attempt to reform for reference.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Back on topic: since I did your google work for you before, care to point out where CBO report says that "many" companies will cut their privately provided coverage? Can't seem to find it in any of the synopsis' from the "gurus". Thx.

If you're going to argue semantics -- the difference between "some" and "many" -- I'm not going to bother. Feel free to change the word in your head every time you read it, but my points will still stand.

Putting aside references for a moment, let me list the likely impact the proposed fines will have on each type of business.

IN MY OPINION...

SECTION 1. Smaller Businesses
For those with payrolls over $500k who do NOT currently offer their employees coverage -- the impact of a 2% to 8% fine will likely result in:
a. Job cuts
b. Higher consumer prices for each companies' products and services
c. Reductions in other employee benefits
d. Less money for R&D
What you are ignoring is the impact on companies that do provide coverage for their employees. They will not have to subsidize unpaid ER and hospital bills from employees of companies who don't, resulting in more money to spend on jobs, R&D, lower prices to consumer, or increases in other employee benefits, which will offset cuts in those companies that are saddling everyone else with their employees health care costs.
Umm, no. I'm not ignoring that impact, I'm simply stating that the negative impacts the fines will have are more important. I'm willing to support legislation that ONLY fixes that particular problem, but not at the expense of every other company and their employees who would be negatively impacted by the current proposal.

So status quo rewards those who don't provide benefits, while reform rewards those who do.
Again, I'm not arguing FOR the status quo.

SECTION 2. Larger Businesses
For those larger companies that do currently offer employer-based coverage options, the fines will likely result in the company weighing the costs of current coverage options vs. the costs of the levied fines. For many (some?) such companies, the fines would cost substantially less than what they're paying in current coverage fees. So, given the newly created "public option" safety net, the companies will no longer have to worry about their workforce becoming uninsured. As a result, they will likely drop the coverage options and choose to pay the fine instead.

YOUR CHALLENGE:
Using logic and an articulate argument, please demonstrate alternative outcomes for each section above. Use the currently proposed legislation as your list of conditions.

Good luck.

Companies are more likely to drop coverage under status quo when there is no fine and they are forced to absorb the cost of the uninsured in their premiums and subsidize their competitors who don't provide coverage. Companies worry about the bottom line and competitiveness, and they'd be suckers to continue covering their employees plus their competitors employees' unpaid hospital bills.
Once again, I'm not arguing FOR the status quo -- I'm simply arguing AGAINST the current crappy proposal.

Stop telling me how the "status quo" is fucked up. I know that much. Hell, EVERYBODY knows that much.

Instead, try telling us why you think the current proposal effectively fixes the problems without creating more shiny new problems that are even worse -- and do so using specific numbers, pages, or examples.

You can't do that though, can you? You're stuck on this "bu bu bu but the status quo!!1111" nonsense.

I'm willing to support reform, just not any that would create new problems that are even worse than the ones we have now.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
Voting this reform down = status quo for a VERY long time. You can pretend you are not for it all you want.
You have not made a convincing argument that reform will create shiny new problems that are worse. As written, it will at the very least reduce incentive to cut coverage by imposing a fine on companies who do, and cover those who have been dropped by their companies and cannot obtain private coverage that they can afford. You cannot say that for the status quo.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
14,005
11,705
136
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Contrary to the ststements of our good friend theskinsfan, what the CBO actually says is that 9 million will be dropped by their employer in this new system. Sad right? Well the same estimate also says that 12 million new people will be added through their employers due to this. Or in other wirds, an increase of 3 million. In addition, only 13% of businesses in america have payrolls above $500,000, so to cast this as some attack on small business is pretty absurd.

At last, "gurus". :)
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Contrary to the ststements of our good friend theskinsfan, what the CBO actually says is that 9 million will be dropped by their employer in this new system. Sad right? Well the same estimate also says that 12 million new people will be added through their employers due to this. Or in other wirds, an increase of 3 million. In addition, only 13% of businesses in america have payrolls above $500,000, so to cast this as some attack on small business is pretty absurd.
So those 9 million... what "options" will they be left with? How would YOU like to be one of those 9 million?

Here's a thought...
How about we take our fucking time to come up with a plan that adds 12 million newly insured employees WITHOUT doing so at the expense of 9 million others?

WHAT A CONCEPT!!!

Sounds crazy, I know, but I'd like to see well-conceived legislation that doesn't punish anybody.
 

TheSkinsFan

Golden Member
May 15, 2009
1,141
0
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Voting this reform down = status quo for a VERY long time. You can pretend you are not for it all you want.
You have not made a convincing argument that reform will create shiny new problems that are worse. As written, it will at the very least reduce incentive to cut coverage by imposing a fine on companies who do, and cover those who have been dropped by their companies and cannot obtain private coverage that they can afford. You cannot say that for the status quo.

They have 18 months to come up with and vote on something that is NOT the status-fucking-quo.

Your whole "it haz to happenz NOWSZZZZ!1111!!!" thing is complete bullshit.

I have yet to meet anyone, anywhere, arguing FOR the status quo, yet you spend all your time and energy arguing with such a ghost.

weird.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Contrary to the ststements of our good friend theskinsfan, what the CBO actually says is that 9 million will be dropped by their employer in this new system. Sad right? Well the same estimate also says that 12 million new people will be added through their employers due to this. Or in other wirds, an increase of 3 million. In addition, only 13% of businesses in america have payrolls above $500,000, so to cast this as some attack on small business is pretty absurd.
So those 9 million... what "options" will they be left with? How would YOU like to be one of those 9 million?

Here's a thought...
How about we take our fucking time to come up with a plan that adds 12 million newly insured employees WITHOUT doing so at the expense of 9 million others?

WHAT A CONCEPT!!!

Sounds crazy, I know, but I'd like to see well-conceived legislation that doesn't punish anybody.

The 9 million will have individiual private plans and public option to choose from. WHAT A CONCEPT!!!
Under status quo, which you are defending by opposing reform, they will only have private individual plans to chose from, and if they cannot afford them, will have no coverage AT ALL, sticking everyone else with the cost when they seek the most expensive care possible at the ER.
Companies that cut insurance coverage get to privatize the savings, while socializing the losses. It's the American way, after all. I call it ER Socialism :)