So when Obama says I can keep my doctor.....

[Pens1566]

I think this train has finally pulled into the station.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
Voting this reform down = status quo for a VERY long time. You can pretend you are not for it all you want.
You have not made a convincing argument that reform will create shiny new problems that are worse. As written, it will at the very least reduce incentive to cut coverage by imposing a fine on companies who do, and cover those who have been dropped by their companies and cannot obtain private coverage that they can afford. You cannot say that for the status quo.

They have 18 months to come up with and vote on something that is NOT the status-fucking-quo.

Your whole "it haz to happenz NOWSZZZZ!1111!!!" thing is complete bullshit.

I have yet to meet anyone, anywhere, arguing FOR the status quo, yet you spend all your time and energy arguing with such a ghost.

weird.

Politically, it has to happen now, or it won't happen, period. Again, you can delude yourself all you want, but by opposing this bill you are de-facto supporting status quo for a VERY long time.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
Voting this reform down = status quo for a VERY long time. You can pretend you are not for it all you want.
You have not made a convincing argument that reform will create shiny new problems that are worse. As written, it will at the very least reduce incentive to cut coverage by imposing a fine on companies who do, and cover those who have been dropped by their companies and cannot obtain private coverage that they can afford. You cannot say that for the status quo.

They have 18 months to come up with and vote on something that is NOT the status-fucking-quo.

Your whole "it haz to happenz NOWSZZZZ!1111!!!" thing is complete bullshit.

I have yet to meet anyone, anywhere, arguing FOR the status quo, yet you spend all your time and energy arguing with such a ghost.

weird.

Politically, it has to happen now, or it won't happen, period. Again, you can delude yourself all you want, but by opposing this bill you are de-facto supporting status quo for a VERY long time.

As sad as it is, it's true. Once it's derailed (whatever the form), it will take many years to get "anything" back on the tracks again, especially when it's this size. i.e. You don't see anyone talking about SS reform (like a few years ago), do you?

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: senseamp
The 9 million will have individiual private plans and public option to choose from. WHAT A CONCEPT!!!

So 9 million more people that taxdollars get to pay for, and they get to "choose" the public option. Fucking swell.

Under status quo, which you are defending by opposing reform,

I'm opposing the current proposal for reform, NOT defending the status quo. Don't put words in my mouth.

You're still arguing with an imaginary ghost.

they will only have private individual plans to chose from, and if they cannot afford them, will have no coverage AT ALL, sticking everyone else with the cost when they seek the most expensive care possible at the ER. Companies that cut insurance coverage get to privatize the savings, while socializing the losses. It's the American way, after all. I call it ER Socialism

WTF does "privatize the savings" even mean? And "socializing the losses"? "ER socialism"? WTF?!

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
Voting this reform down = status quo for a VERY long time. You can pretend you are not for it all you want.
You have not made a convincing argument that reform will create shiny new problems that are worse. As written, it will at the very least reduce incentive to cut coverage by imposing a fine on companies who do, and cover those who have been dropped by their companies and cannot obtain private coverage that they can afford. You cannot say that for the status quo.

They have 18 months to come up with and vote on something that is NOT the status-fucking-quo.

Your whole "it haz to happenz NOWSZZZZ!1111!!!" thing is complete bullshit.

I have yet to meet anyone, anywhere, arguing FOR the status quo, yet you spend all your time and energy arguing with such a ghost.

weird.

Politically, it has to happen now, or it won't happen, period. Again, you can delude yourself all you want, but by opposing this bill you are de-facto supporting status quo for a VERY long time.

The only reason you believe "it has to happen now" is because you've bought into their DC-flavored rhetoric. The Dems will control both Houses, with the same number of votes, for the next 18 months. They have THAT much time to close the sale on healthcare reform.

For legislation this important, rushing it would be the worst possible thing they could do. As with the SS debacle, we'd have to live with that mistake for generations to come.

Fuck that.

 

[theeedude]

Just don't be surprised if you will have to live with status quo for a long time to come. There won't be health reform in this Congress and probably many years if current bill is defeated. There just won't be. The lessons that politicians will take away from this is that health care reform is third rail they shouldn't touch. Result will be STATUS QUO.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Just don't be surprised if you will have to live with status quo for a long time to come. There won't be health reform in this Congress and probably many years if current bill is defeated. There just won't be. The lessons that politicians will take away from this is that health care reform is third rail they shouldn't touch. Result will be STATUS QUO.

Then your anger is misdirected.

You should be angry with Congress for wasting their "one and only golden opportunity" to come up with well-conceived, limited, specific, and cost-effective reform.

That's who I'm mad at.

There's still plenty of time IF they pull their heads out of their asses and come up with a better plan. Perhaps you're right though... maybe they're just not up to the challenge. Maybe they're too fucking dumb to debate and eventually write GOOD legislation.

That would be sad.

But, what's more sad is your own willingness to see exceptionally lousy and potentially dangerous legislation passed for the sake of passing something.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
Just don't be surprised if you will have to live with status quo for a long time to come. There won't be health reform in this Congress and probably many years if current bill is defeated. There just won't be. The lessons that politicians will take away from this is that health care reform is third rail they shouldn't touch. Result will be STATUS QUO.

Then your anger is misdirected.

You should be angry with Congress for wasting their "one and only golden opportunity" to come up with well-conceived, limited, specific, and cost-effective reform.

That's who I'm mad at.

There's still plenty of time IF they pull their heads out of their asses and come up with a better plan. Perhaps you're right though... maybe they're just not up to the challenge. Maybe they're too fucking dumb to debate and eventually write GOOD legislation.

That would be sad.

But, what's more sad is your own willingness to see exceptionally lousy and potentially dangerous legislation passed for the sake of passing something.

It's a good legislation. Miles better than status quo.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: yllus
Don't you find this argument a little self-defeating? While the current "government option" on the table doesn't seem to be anything to cheer for, don't you find the fact that you don't have the choice to go to any doctor in your area you wish to see a little troubling? That choice is something that people in a single-payer health system have.

Stop spreading lies and misinformation. I'm reporting you to flag@whitehouse.gov.

Everybody can go to whatever doctor they choose.

I'm pretty certain the White House likes what I'm saying - that this halfway measure you folks are working on is pretty dumb and that you should move all the way over to single-payer.

Everybody knows this is the answer, but the powers that profit from our current system currently have to much influence on both sides of the aisle to ever let that happen. I'll be pleased and amazed if they can push through a public option, that would be a step in the right direction.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: JS80
What will eventually happen is the medical business will fragment itself into two pieces. One is the talented private doctors group who will be serving the non-govt option consumer, and the DO, bottom 10% MD class types who will take whatever they can get. And as the pool of consumers who are in the govt option grows, and not enough doctors to serve, Congress will have to pass a bill that forbids doctors from refusing govt option patients.

Once the "grace period" is over and pretty much everyone is on the government plan, these doctors will need to start accepting government patients in order to make any money.

Or to explain it in terms a republican is more likely to understand: We "the people" are creating a monopoly, which we will then use to push others around to our advantage. When you represent 100% of patients, and a drug company's (or doctor's, or hospital's, etc..) choice is between providing service at a reasonable rate, or not providing service at all, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what their decision will be.

Republicans certainly seem to like monopolies just fine when they occur in the business world, and make a few people very, very (astronomically) rich. Why is it that they don't like it when the monopoly works in the opposite direction?

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Patranus
So when Obama claims that I can keep my doctor with his government option...

...what happens if it is cheaper for my employer to dump the current health care plan and take whatever hit the government outs in place for employers who do not provide health coverage?

Will I be able to go to my same doctor in that case? Even it they work for Kaiser Permanent or other health group that provides insurance and services?

There are heavy penalties for employers dumping people out of their health coverage so that they will be picked up by the government plan.

Your trolls are getting more obvious, by the way.

Compared to Phokus' trolls, this is nothing.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
Voting this reform down = status quo for a VERY long time. You can pretend you are not for it all you want.
You have not made a convincing argument that reform will create shiny new problems that are worse. As written, it will at the very least reduce incentive to cut coverage by imposing a fine on companies who do, and cover those who have been dropped by their companies and cannot obtain private coverage that they can afford. You cannot say that for the status quo.

They have 18 months to come up with and vote on something that is NOT the status-fucking-quo.

Your whole "it haz to happenz NOWSZZZZ!1111!!!" thing is complete bullshit.

I have yet to meet anyone, anywhere, arguing FOR the status quo, yet you spend all your time and energy arguing with such a ghost.

weird.

Politically, it has to happen now, or it won't happen, period. Again, you can delude yourself all you want, but by opposing this bill you are de-facto supporting status quo for a VERY long time.

You lefties are getting annoying. When are you going to learn that not supporting THIS BILL =! not supporting reform? What the FUCK is wrong with you? Did you seriously drink THAT much kool-aid?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
Just don't be surprised if you will have to live with status quo for a long time to come. There won't be health reform in this Congress and probably many years if current bill is defeated. There just won't be. The lessons that politicians will take away from this is that health care reform is third rail they shouldn't touch. Result will be STATUS QUO.

Then your anger is misdirected.

You should be angry with Congress for wasting their "one and only golden opportunity" to come up with well-conceived, limited, specific, and cost-effective reform.

That's who I'm mad at.

There's still plenty of time IF they pull their heads out of their asses and come up with a better plan. Perhaps you're right though... maybe they're just not up to the challenge. Maybe they're too fucking dumb to debate and eventually write GOOD legislation.

That would be sad.

But, what's more sad is your own willingness to see exceptionally lousy and potentially dangerous legislation passed for the sake of passing something.

It's a good legislation. Miles better than status quo.

Good for who exactly? Certainly not consumers....

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
Voting this reform down = status quo for a VERY long time. You can pretend you are not for it all you want.
You have not made a convincing argument that reform will create shiny new problems that are worse. As written, it will at the very least reduce incentive to cut coverage by imposing a fine on companies who do, and cover those who have been dropped by their companies and cannot obtain private coverage that they can afford. You cannot say that for the status quo.

They have 18 months to come up with and vote on something that is NOT the status-fucking-quo.

Your whole "it haz to happenz NOWSZZZZ!1111!!!" thing is complete bullshit.

I have yet to meet anyone, anywhere, arguing FOR the status quo, yet you spend all your time and energy arguing with such a ghost.

weird.

Politically, it has to happen now, or it won't happen, period. Again, you can delude yourself all you want, but by opposing this bill you are de-facto supporting status quo for a VERY long time.

You lefties are getting annoying. When are you going to learn that not supporting THIS BILL =! not supporting reform? What the FUCK is wrong with you? Did you seriously drink THAT much kool-aid?

But you know full well, whether you like this bill or not, that reform of this size, that doesn't happen quickly, tends to die (100% of the time) and not be resurrected for a decade or so. As bad as that sounds, that's the way it is.

Disclaimer: I'm not supporting this bill or saying it's crap either. I don't really know what's being considered since there seem to be 5 versions floating around and nothing merged. I do agree that something needs to be done.

Over half of our current healt care dollars are wasted (that explains why we spend well over twice as much per-capita as other countries).

 

[Gunslinger08]

I think the basis of the argument is this: Some people think a single payer option will force healthcare companies to increase efficiency and lower costs dramatically. Some people think this lowering of costs will mean poorer healthcare.

I think both are probably right. Single payer healthcare will lower costs, but will also lower our standard of care. Would you rather save money or live a healthier life?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp
Voting this reform down = status quo for a VERY long time. You can pretend you are not for it all you want.
You have not made a convincing argument that reform will create shiny new problems that are worse. As written, it will at the very least reduce incentive to cut coverage by imposing a fine on companies who do, and cover those who have been dropped by their companies and cannot obtain private coverage that they can afford. You cannot say that for the status quo.

They have 18 months to come up with and vote on something that is NOT the status-fucking-quo.

Your whole "it haz to happenz NOWSZZZZ!1111!!!" thing is complete bullshit.

I have yet to meet anyone, anywhere, arguing FOR the status quo, yet you spend all your time and energy arguing with such a ghost.

weird.

Politically, it has to happen now, or it won't happen, period. Again, you can delude yourself all you want, but by opposing this bill you are de-facto supporting status quo for a VERY long time.

You lefties are getting annoying. When are you going to learn that not supporting THIS BILL =! not supporting reform? What the FUCK is wrong with you? Did you seriously drink THAT much kool-aid?

But you know full well, whether you like this bill or not, that reform of this size, that doesn't happen quickly, tends to die (100% of the time) and not be resurrected for a decade or so. As bad as that sounds, that's the way it is.

Disclaimer: I'm not supporting this bill or saying it's crap either. I don't really know what's being considered since there seem to be 5 versions floating around and nothing merged. I do agree that something needs to be done.

Over half of our current healt care dollars are wasted (that explains why we spend well over twice as much per-capita as other countries).

I wont disagree with that. Somehow, though, as determined as the current administration is, they can certainly not "let it die". They have a firm hold on House, senate, and possibly WH for the next 7 years...thats certainly enough time to put something together. The current ideas are SHIT, and most people, including the CBO, know it.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
I think the basis of the argument is this: Some people think a single payer option will force healthcare companies to increase efficiency and lower costs dramatically. Some people think this lowering of costs will mean poorer healthcare.

I think both are probably right. Single payer healthcare will lower costs, but will also lower our standard of care. Would you rather save money or live a healthier life?

I think the majority of those on this board have the mindset that those who HAVE, can afford to give up a little in order to give to those who dont. So what if "the rich" lose a little in the way of quality. At least "the poor" will have something. Its simply Robin Hood economics.

 

[theeedude]

I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: blackangst1


I wont disagree with that. Somehow, though, as determined as the current administration is, they can certainly not "let it die". They have a firm hold on House, senate, and possibly WH for the next 7 years...thats certainly enough time to put something together. The current ideas are SHIT, and most people, including the CBO, know it.

I disagree with the firm hold. That's the beauty of every two year elections for the House (or it's downfall, since they campaign just as soon as they get in for the next election, lol). That's another subject though.

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

HSA....
HSA....
HSA....

HSA....


Disclaimer: I hate the HSA in it's form as it becomes nothing but 100% self insured for the people (no employer or any other contributions other than the tax break). And yes, I know that a few employers contribute some money, but not all.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

What do you mean "solution"?

Only a SMALL MINORITY do not have insurance and are in a situation where they do not have insurance because they CHOOSE to not have insurance.

The VAST MAJORITY of people are satisfied or very satisfied with the current health care system in the USA.

Now, no one is saying that the current system cannot be tweaked to improve health care but a major change of course such as Obama is purposing is no needed or necessary.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

What do you mean "solution"?

Only a SMALL MINORITY do not have insurance and are in a situation where they do not have insurance because they CHOOSE to not have insurance.

The VAST MAJORITY of people are satisfied or very satisfied with the current health care system in the USA.

Now, no one is saying that the current system cannot be tweaked to improve health care but a major change of course such as Obama is purposing is no needed or necessary.

If you can't see that the current rates of health care costs and spending (over twice as much as the rest of the world) are going to eventually bring down the US economy and business, I just shake my head. Something needs to be done and not just "minor" tweaks either.

Edit: I forgot, the HSA fixes it all. Move the cost from the employer to the employee, it becomes portable and bingo, problem solved.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

Yes really. Where was this plan when GOP was in position to pass it?
Instead they voted to spend $1T on Medicare prescription drug benefit with no cost controls.
Seems like a diversion that they are only interested in proposing when there is no chance of it passing.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

It has nothing to do with "the other party". It has to do with realizing no matter WHAT the GOP proposes, the Dems wont consider it. Its called partisan politics-something BOTH sides are guilty of. Therefore, those of us with any intelligence, realize its the Dems who have to do something, because they can.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: senseamp
I love how all the Obama and Democrats bashers' solution to health care still relies on Obama and Democrats to come up with one. At least you guys realize that the other party has nothing to offer on the subject.

oh really?

Yes really. Where was this plan when GOP was in position to pass it?
Instead they voted to spend $1T on Medicare prescription drug benefit with no cost controls.
Seems like a diversion that they are only interested in proposing when there is no chance of it passing.

And where are the cost controls in the Dems proposal, hmmm?