So our priest denied our daughter's baptism...

[moshquerade]

Yes I am! I'm also a "former Catholic" that worked with abused children at the beginning of my career and now, 30 years later, some of my "Clients " are child molesters, rapists, and just about any other perversion you can think of. From my experience working with this population the systematic cover up done by the church has done nothing but given these pedophilic priest's a license to molest. The whole dynamic of the molest, cover up, re-molest cycle was compounded by the way the church handled the abuse. How many thousands of children would have been spared had the church not covered it up. Given the bad publicity today, to what length is the church still covering up past and present abuse?

After 30 + years the one thing I know is that you can't cure a pedophile, you can only hope to control the behavior.

Your lack of grip on reality is scary. I am questioning your bold statements that "Any organization that allows the systematic abuse of children world wide is not place to bring a child nor one I would want to belong too. Personally I'd be afraid to bring my child to a Catholic church."

I do not believe the Catholic Church is "allowing" abuse of children.
I will not deny there have been incidents in the past or that there were cover ups. I do not condone that horrific behavior in the Catholic Church, IN ANY CHURCH OR ANYWHERE! Because it happens all over, not just in this one church you are singling out.

Why would you be afraid to bring your child to a Catholic Church? You have emphatically stated just that. I would like you to back that statement with what you feel would happen to your child if he/she attended a Catholic Church.

 

[cherrytwist]

baptism denial > ? > pedophilia

Only on ATOT.

 

[Slapstick]

Your lack of grip on reality is scary. I am questioning your bold statements that "Any organization that allows the systematic abuse of children world wide is not place to bring a child nor one I would want to belong too. Personally I'd be afraid to bring my child to a Catholic church."

I do not believe the Catholic Church is "allowing" abuse of children.
I will not deny there have been incidents in the past or that there were cover ups. I do not condone that horrific behavior in the Catholic Church, IN ANY CHURCH OR ANYWHERE! Because it happens all over, not just in this one church you are singling out.

Why would you be afraid to bring your child to a Catholic Church? You have emphatically stated just that. I would like you to back that statement with what you feel would happen to your child if he/she attended a Catholic Church.

Well it's apparent you're a brainwashed, card carrying Catholic, which is your right. I just don't subscribe to that doctrine nor would I want my child too anymore and that is my right. You may not believe that the church allowed abuse but the shear fact that they covered it up is "ALLOWING" it to occur. Your contention that, "I do not condone that horrific behavior in the Catholic Church, IN ANY CHURCH OR ANYWHERE! Because it happens all over, not just in this one church you are singling out." reeks of the excuse a 5 year old gives, "everyone else is doing it". I thought you were better than that, I see I was wrong.

You can be in as much denial as you want but when it comes to light that not only in this country but also in Europe, (and the current Pope may have known and helped cover it up) then there is a systematic problem with the organization.

Why wouldn't I bring my child to a Catholic church? Personal choice mainly but also a few years back I worked with an ex-priest, (he never would say why he left the priesthood) he was a therapist that specialized in sex offenders and drug & alcohol abuse. Very nice guy, knowledgeable and professional. Turns out that he was one of those "pedophile priests". After being moved from parish to parish and under going Catholic "re-education" he was forced out of the priesthood. He then went back to school and got his master degree and entered the world of counseling. I guess his past behavior is what made a good therapist for sex offenders being that he was one himself they couldn't pull much over his eyes. Anyway, before this all came to light I would have trusted him around children, you know him being an ex-priest and a professional and all. It made me wonder just how many more are still in the priesthood being protected by the church.

As I can tell you have your faith in the church and I have my experiences. I think I'll let my experiences guide me on this issue not my faith, (although I have none in the Catholic church anymore so in effect I guess my faith guides me too).

 

[Slapstick]

baptism denial > ? > pedophilia

Only on ATOT.

No but the vacation since June begs the question was it really a vacation or treatment?

 

[Keeper]

What is SAD is I KNEW what your religion was before I went into the thread.


IT is a business, not a religion. One of the Kennedy's got ann annulment in weeks.
Cash = Action. So sad.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Well it's apparent you're a brainwashed, card carrying Catholic, which is your right. I just don't subscribe to that doctrine nor would I want my child too anymore and that is my right. You may not believe that the church allowed abuse but the shear fact that they covered it up is "ALLOWING" it to occur. Your contention that, "I do not condone that horrific behavior in the Catholic Church, IN ANY CHURCH OR ANYWHERE! Because it happens all over, not just in this one church you are singling out." reeks of the excuse a 5 year old gives, "everyone else is doing it". I thought you were better than that, I see I was wrong.

You can be in as much denial as you want but when it comes to light that not only in this country but also in Europe, (and the current Pope may have known and helped cover it up) then there is a systematic problem with the organization.

Why wouldn't I bring my child to a Catholic church? Personal choice mainly but also a few years back I worked with an ex-priest, (he never would say why he left the priesthood) he was a therapist that specialized in sex offenders and drug & alcohol abuse. Very nice guy, knowledgeable and professional. Turns out that he was one of those "pedophile priests". After being moved from parish to parish and under going Catholic "re-education" he was forced out of the priesthood. He then went back to school and got his master degree and entered the world of counseling. I guess his past behavior is what made a good therapist for sex offenders being that he was one himself they couldn't pull much over his eyes. Anyway, before this all came to light I would have trusted him around children, you know him being an ex-priest and a professional and all. It made me wonder just how many more are still in the priesthood being protected by the church.

As I can tell you have your faith in the church and I have my experiences. I think I'll let my experiences guide me on this issue not my faith, (although I have none in the Catholic church anymore so in effect I guess my faith guides me too).

You sure do assume a lot for a therapist.
Is it safe to assume you were abused by a priest when you were in the Church?

 

[DangerAardvark]

You sure do assume a lot for a therapist.
Is it safe to assume you were abused by a priest when you were in the Church?

Of course he was. What other possible reason could he have for being opposed to systemic child abuse within an organization? I mean I'm opposed to murder. But that's only because I was murdered when I was a child.

 

[moshquerade]

Well it's apparent you're a brainwashed, card carrying Catholic, which is your right.

Yes, because I hold you to your statements I must be brainwashed. I can turn the table and say you are brainwashed just the same. Did that get us anywhere in this discussion? No.

I just don't subscribe to that doctrine nor would I want my child too anymore and that is my right.

Where did I say it wasn't your right? You add more hogwash to your posts on this with each one.

You may not believe that the church allowed abuse but the shear fact that they covered it up is "ALLOWING" it to occur.

I never said it didn't occur or that it wasn't covered up. This is what bugs me about your type. You automatically pull out the denial card. Like any one who is Catholic is in denial of what has happened in the past. I don't find that to be true.

Your contention that, "I do not condone that horrific behavior in the Catholic Church, IN ANY CHURCH OR ANYWHERE! Because it happens all over, not just in this one church you are singling out." reeks of the excuse a 5 year old gives, "everyone else is doing it". I thought you were better than that, I see I was wrong.

I am trying to get you to see that it is not limited to the Catholic Church.
I did not say it is alright because "everyone else is doing it". How dare you imply that. People like you feel intimidated when the fact is brought up that child abuse happens all over. It makes it hard for you to attack one venue if you have to acknowledge it's not limited.

You can be in as much denial as you want but when it comes to light that not only in this country but also in Europe, (and the current Pope may have known and helped cover it up) then there is a systematic problem with the organization.

Again, what am I denying here again? Really, just shove that. I have not denied anything, and yet you keep going back to that.

Why wouldn't I bring my child to a Catholic church? Personal choice mainly

Of course it's your choice, but for you to say that you'd be "afraid" to bring a child to a Catholic Church shows me you are hysterical.

but also a few years back I worked with an ex-priest, (he never would say why he left the priesthood) he was a therapist that specialized in sex offenders and drug & alcohol abuse. Very nice guy, knowledgeable and professional. Turns out that he was one of those "pedophile priests". After being moved from parish to parish and under going Catholic "re-education" he was forced out of the priesthood. He then went back to school and got his master degree and entered the world of counseling. I guess his past behavior is what made a good therapist for sex offenders being that he was one himself they couldn't pull much over his eyes. Anyway, before this all came to light I would have trusted him around children, you know him being an ex-priest and a professional and all. It made me wonder just how many more are still in the priesthood being protected by the church.

Great story. This makes every priest an offender, and if you take a child to church the priest will swoop down off the alter and do bad things to the kid. This is true, I read it on the internet. Now I understand why you are afraid to bring a child to church.

As I can tell you have your faith in the church and I have my experiences. I think I'll let my experiences guide me on this issue not my faith, (although I have none in the Catholic church anymore so in effect I guess my faith guides me too).

I took exception to your statement that you'd be afraid to let a child attend a Catholic Church. I maintain you were out of line with that statement, and you have yet to tell me what you think would happen if a child did attend church. I don't care if you've "lost faith" or if you've been "brainwashed" to think all priests are pedophiles and the church is hiding them all over. I would like you to tell me what it is you are afraid of if a child attends a Catholic Church.

 

[moshquerade]

You sure do assume a lot for a therapist.
Is it safe to assume you were abused by a priest when you were in the Church?

You bring up a good question. He was likely abused by someone or maybe a "reformed" pedophile himself as those are usually the types that end up being "therapists" because they have first hand experience with the abuse and can relate so much better than the average person.

 

[Phokus]

Your lack of grip on reality is scary. I am questioning your bold statements that "Any organization that allows the systematic abuse of children world wide is not place to bring a child nor one I would want to belong too. Personally I'd be afraid to bring my child to a Catholic church."

I do not believe the Catholic Church is "allowing" abuse of children.
I will not deny there have been incidents in the past or that there were cover ups. I do not condone that horrific behavior in the Catholic Church, IN ANY CHURCH OR ANYWHERE! Because it happens all over, not just in this one church you are singling out.

Why would you be afraid to bring your child to a Catholic Church? You have emphatically stated just that. I would like you to back that statement with what you feel would happen to your child if he/she attended a Catholic Church.

Hi Mosh, you're delusional if you don't think there was a systemic coverup of abuse. True believer syndrome i guess.

 

[moshquerade]

Hi Mosh, you're delusional if you don't think there was a systemic coverup of abuse. True believer syndrome i guess.

Hi Phokus, go read my posts again, or maybe for the first time.
I never said there wasn't any abuse or coverups, and I will not respond to such ridiculous projections again.

 

[actuarial]

Why wouldn't I bring my child to a Catholic church? Personal choice mainly but also a few years back I worked with an ex-priest, (he never would say why he left the priesthood) he was a therapist that specialized in sex offenders and drug & alcohol abuse. Very nice guy, knowledgeable and professional. Turns out that he was one of those "pedophile priests". After being moved from parish to parish and under going Catholic "re-education" he was forced out of the priesthood.

Doesn't this story actually show that the catholic church removed someone from the priesthood...basically the opposite of the point you were trying to make?

And maybe you should read my posting history before claiming I'm a card carrying Catholic.

Also, I think Mosh's general point was this: abuse to children happens in lots of places. If you were going to not attend a Catholic church with your child due to this (nevermind the fact that you can attend and they would always be with you anyways) using the same logic you'd never send your kids to daycare, boy scouts, recreational sports, to the park etc.

 

[Slapstick]

You bring up a good question. He was likely abused by someone or maybe a "reformed" pedophile himself as those are usually the types that end up being "therapists" because they have first hand experience with the abuse and can relate so much better than the average person.

Wow Mosh, you're stooping to a new low. Can't refute the message so go after the messenger. You really are like a 5 year old. You asked my opinion and I gave it to you but you didn't like the answer, so now you try to pull out the stops and attack, get over yourself and grow up a little. Apparently your reading comprehension skills need to brushed up on but then again you are showing your predisposition to "goosestepping" the Catholic line.

Just to answer your speculation, which you would have gathered if you could have comprehended what I wrote, I have worked around those that have been abused and I now some of my client are in fact abuser. No where did I say I was abused, (for the record I have not been) nor am I an abuser.

You were so quick to jump on that it makes me wonder, have you now or in the past had a fling with a priest? Oh one more thing I'm not a therapist either but I do work around them. Keep guessing what I do.

 

[Slapstick]

Doesn't this story actually show that the catholic church removed someone from the priesthood...basically the opposite of the point you were trying to make?

And maybe you should read my posting history before claiming I'm a card carrying Catholic.

Also, I think Mosh's general point was this: abuse to children happens in lots of places. If you were going to not attend a Catholic church with your child due to this (nevermind the fact that you can attend and they would always be with you anyways) using the same logic you'd never send your kids to daycare, boy scouts, recreational sports, to the park etc.

No it proves my point, instead of turning him over to the law, they hid the abuse by transferring him from parish to another and then dismissing him from the priesthood. It did nothing to keep him away from children, in fact it allowed him to continue.

 

[actuarial]

No it proves my point, instead of turning him over to the law, they hid the abuse by transferring him from parish to another and then dismissing him from the priesthood. It did nothing to keep him away from children, in fact it allowed him to continue.

But it stopped him from interacting with kids in the Catholic church eventually right?

 

[moshquerade]

Wow Mosh, you're stooping to a new low. Can't refute the message so go after the messenger. You really are like a 5 year old. You asked my opinion and I gave it to you but you didn't like the answer, so now you try to pull out the stops and attack, get over yourself and grow up a little. Apparently your reading comprehension skills need to brushed up on but then again you are showing your predisposition to "goosestepping" the Catholic line.

Just to answer your speculation and you would have gathered if you could have comprehended what I wrote, I have worked around those that have been abused and I now some of my client are in fact abuser. No where did I say I was abused, (for the record I have not been) nor am I an abuser.

You were the one who said this "ex-priest" was a good therapist b/c "I guess his past behavior is what made a good therapist for sex offenders being that he was one himself they couldn't pull much over his eyes."
So, it goes, that maybe that is why you were good at therapy, as you led us to belief. I am not the only one who assumed you were a therapist. You posted as if you were. Possibly you are just a social worker, who knows, but you did come off as being a therapist yourself. I guess you're just a therapist wanna-be then.

You where so quick to jump on that it makes me wonder, have you now or in the past had a fling with a priest?

No, I have not. It's a possibility that you are or that you have though.


You fail to answer my question as to what exactly would happen to a child who attended a Catholic Church as you stated you would be afraid to take a child there. You have side stepped that question every time I asked you to clarify.

Your responses are just degrading more and more into ad hominen attacks without justification. I particularly like you repeating that I am acting like a 5 year old when that is far from true, and just a cop out.

 

[Slapstick]

But it stopped him from interacting with kids in the Catholic church eventually right?

Well, I guess that's one way to look at it. My way of looking at it report it to law enforcement when it first came to light, have him prosecuted instead of allowing it to continue for years.

 

[Slapstick]

You were the one who said this "ex-priest" was a good therapist b/c "I guess his past behavior is what made a good therapist for sex offenders being that he was one himself they couldn't pull much over his eyes."
So, it goes, that maybe that is why you were good at therapy, as you led us to belief. I am not the only one who assumed you were a therapist. You posted as if you were. Possibly you are just a social worker, who knows, but you did come off as being a therapist yourself. I guess you're just a therapist wanna-be then.

No, I have not. It's a possibility that you are or that you have though.


You fail to answer my question as to what exactly would happen to a child who attended a Catholic Church as you stated you would be afraid to take a child there. You have side stepped that question every time I asked you to clarify.

Your responses are just degrading more and more into ad hominen attacks without justification. I particularly like you repeating that I am acting like a 5 year old when that is far from true, and just a cop out.

Oh Mosh this is getting to be too much fun. I guess may be I should have said you're acting like a delusional 5 year old. You're the one who said" He was likely abused by someone or maybe a "reformed" pedophile himself as those are usually the types that end up being "therapists" because they have first hand experience with the abuse and can relate so much better than the average person. " When it's handed back to you, you become so indignant. You're funny.

I did answer you question but you failed to understand the answer. I said. "it was mainly a personal choice" and then related the story of how I would have trusted someone, because in part he was an ex-priest to be around children and who it turns out was pedophile that the church had covered up for. Now if you had an once of intelligence you could have deduced that my fear would be how many more abusers are larking about in the church that the church is covering up. So you see I did answer your question your were just unable to grasp the answer.

I particularly like how all of the sudden, according to you, I'm a pedophile since I don't tow the "Catholic Party Line' like you do. These little rants back and forth are rather enjoyable and give me something to do between appointments so I eagerly await your next drivel of a response.

 

[moshquerade]

Oh Mosh this is getting to be too much fun. I guess may be I should have said you're acting like a delusional 5 year old. You're the one who said" He was likely abused by someone or maybe a "reformed" pedophile himself as those are usually the types that end up being "therapists" because they have first hand experience with the abuse and can relate so much better than the average person. " When it's handed back to you, you become so indignant. You're funny.

I did answer you question but you failed to understand the answer. I said. "it was mainly a personal choice" and then related the story of how I would have trusted someone, because in part he was an ex-priest to be around children and who it turns out was pedophile that the church had covered up for. Now if you had an once of intelligence you could have deduced that my fear would be how many more abusers are larking about in the church that the church is covering up. So you see I did answer your question your were just unable to grasp the answer.

I particularly like how all of the sudden, according to you, I'm a pedophile since I don't tow the "Catholic Party Line' like you do. These little rants back and forth are rather enjoyable and give me something to do between appointments so I eagerly await your next drivel of a response.

Meh, I would never have this conversation for this long with you in real life.
I would've been bored quite some time ago, and honestly, you wouldn't be saying these things to me directly.

Have a good day with your clients.

 

[Phokus]

Hi Phokus, go read my posts again, or maybe for the first time.
I never said there wasn't any abuse or coverups, and I will not respond to such ridiculous projections again.

You said:

I do not believe the Catholic Church is "allowing" abuse of children.

Sorry, but if you're covering it up, you're pretty much allowing it.

 

[moshquerade]

You said:



Sorry, but if you're covering it up, you're pretty much allowing it.

You used past tense in your previous post. I didn't deny abuse/covering up in the past.
I think there have been reforms in the church. If it is going on, and I don't believe the past is equal to the present at all, it will get exposed and there won't be cover ups. Action won't drag.

 

[Phokus]

You used past tense in your previous post. I didn't deny abuse/covering up in the past.
I think there have been reforms in the church. If it is going on, and I don't believe the past is equal to the present at all, it will get exposed and there won't be cover ups. Action won't drag.

I'll believe it when i see it, this is a problem stretching many many decades. When the reports of child abuse hit Boston a few years ago, the Church just gave Cardinal Bernard Law a new job at the Vatican, rather than kicking him out or punishing him for helping facilitate abuse by covering it up. And that, of course, was not an isolated incident.

 

[Slapstick]

Meh, I would never have this conversation for this long with you in real life.
I would've been bored quite some time ago, and honestly, you wouldn't be saying these things to me directly.

Have a good day with your clients.

Actually Mosh, I'm kinder when I write than I am in person, as you've said "I'm an Ass". I would say exactly what I've written and more if we were speaking in person.

I do like the "I'm bored" card you've thrown out. It's a staple response when someone has lost the argument, "I'm bored so I'm taking my ball and going home". You know that boredom is the sign of a lazy mind, right?

 

[Nik]

Your lack of grip on reality is scary. I am questioning your bold statements that "Any organization that allows the systematic abuse of children world wide is not place to bring a child nor one I would want to belong too. Personally I'd be afraid to bring my child to a Catholic church."

I do not believe the Catholic Church is "allowing" abuse of children.
I will not deny there have been incidents in the past or that there were cover ups. I do not condone that horrific behavior in the Catholic Church, IN ANY CHURCH OR ANYWHERE! Because it happens all over, not just in this one church you are singling out.

Why would you be afraid to bring your child to a Catholic Church? You have emphatically stated just that. I would like you to back that statement with what you feel would happen to your child if he/she attended a Catholic Church.

The Catholic church is FAR worse than any other religious organization when it comes to the kiddy rape category.

Fuck, Mosh, I read an article yesterday on CNN about one parish boss who was trying to convince church members NOT to go to the police about another priest who was raping their son.

It happens SO MUCH in the Catholic church that it's become the stereotype. It happens SO MUCH in the Catholic church that their supreme leader, the Pope, has had to address the entire fucking world on the issue.

 

[Nik]

No but the vacation since June begs the question was it really a vacation or treatment?

I got a 2 month ban for something I didn't do, but I like your insinuation, asshole.