So how's that gun prohibition working for you Brits?

[nick1985]

LOL, try using facts, not crap from ten years ago, or 6 years old was your 'youngest' data set. Christ, are you even trying?



Current, up to date FACTS. Deal with it.

PEW PEW!!!!

So it went down 17%...after it rose by 40% after the ban? Nice!!!

"A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

 

[nick1985]

Also,

"The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm


After you just reported:

"Provisional figures show that 8,184 firearm offences were recorded in 2008/09 in England and Wales, a 17 per cent decrease on 2007/08"


Granted, your stats include all guns, not just handguns, but still ironic.

 

[DivideBYZero]

And to bring this all into perspective, again from the same linked document:

Firearm offences can be broken down by injury and this shows there were 38 firearm offences recorded by the police that resulted in a fatal injury (i.e. homicides) in 2008/09, 15 offences fewer than in 2007/08.

Now, the latest data I could find from the US is from 2005, feel free to find a more up to date data set, but the numbers are hilarious, and not in a good way:

2005 8,478 2,868

Doc: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/weaponstab.cfm

11346 Homicides by gun in 2005. Makes gun control look fucking excellent, if you ask me!

 

[DivideBYZero]

Also,

"The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm


After you just reported:

"Provisional figures show that 8,184 firearm offences were recorded in 2008/09 in England and Wales, a 17 per cent decrease on 2007/08"


Granted, your stats include all guns, not just handguns, but still ironic.

A firearm offence can be owning one without a license. I've added some homicide by gun stats to bring some clarity. 38 UK vs 11300 US. Gun control works.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Silence...sounds like...ownage.

 

[nick1985]

We can agree to disagree on gun control working. At the end of the day, however, your overall crime in nearly every category rose after the handgun ban.

 

[nick1985]

Silence...sounds like...ownage.

I'm not glued to AT

 

[DivideBYZero]

We can agree to disagree on gun control working. At the end of the day, however, your overall crime in nearly every category rose after the handgun ban.

You've shown no valid correlation of your data, I've shown you obvious stats that support gun control.

Gun Homicides in UK per year: 38
Gun Homicide in US per year: ~11000

/Thread

 

[nick1985]

You've shown no valid correlation of your data, I've shown you obvious stats that support gun control.

Gun Homicides in UK per year: 38
Gun Homicide in US per year: ~11000

/Thread

I've shown plenty of data to support my case. Comparing the US to the UK is comparing apples to oranges.

I'll leave you with this bit from the Daily Telegraph.

"Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there. To make matters worse, British law enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism."

 

[DivideBYZero]

1) Daily Telegraph
2) Date of article and link
3) Hardly explains the mega disparity of <100 vs >10000.

Gun Homicides in UK per year: 38
Gun Homicide in US per year: ~11000

/Thread

 

[sunzt]

We can agree to disagree on gun control working. At the end of the day, however, your overall crime in nearly every category rose after the handgun ban.

What does "gun control working" mean to you? Would it have to decrease overall crime EDIT[or just gun-related crime]? Isn't it possible for an overall crime increase over these years be attributable to other factors mentioned before such as a change in illegal drug proliferation, change in demographics, or change in culture?

Is "gun control" the most significant factor to determine crime rate in the UK? Other countries?

 

[nick1985]

What does "gun control working" mean to you? Would it have to decrease overall crime?

That would be nice.

sn't it possible for an overall crime increase over these years be attributable to other factors mentioned before such as a change in illegal drug proliferation, change in demographics, or change in culture?

Sure its possible. But we see the same patterns with crime increases whenever sweeping ban legislation takes effect. If all there was, was British crime rising after a sweeping ban then I would take that with a grain of salt. Its the fact that its everywhere gun bans take effect. Gun bans have no effect on criminals.

 

[DivideBYZero]

That would be nice.



Sure its possible. But we see the same patterns with crime increases whenever sweeping ban legislation takes effect. If all there was, was British crime rising after a sweeping ban then I would take that with a grain of salt. Its the fact that its everywhere gun bans take effect. Gun bans have no effect on criminals.

There was also an upswing in the number of dark green metallic hatchbacks sold in the year after the sweeping ban. You cannot correlate general crime stats to the ban on handguns. Or can you? I'd be very interested in any study that proves the ban led to people wanting to steal a bottle of whiskey because their gun was banned.

 

[nobodyknows]

Mostly unattended property crime, a gun wouldn't help you.

Next.

Oh really, care to prove that bullshit?

The assault rate is over twice as high in the UK as it is in the US.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Oh really, care to prove that bullshit?

The assault rate is over twice as high in the UK as it is in the US.

And the gun homicide rate in the US is several thousand percent higher than the UK.

Gun Homicides in UK per year: 38
Gun Homicide in US per year: ~11000

/Thread

 

[Atheus]

Obviously if you discourage the use of firearms you're going to trade a much lower murder rate for a higher rate of other crimes. People are more likely to rob you (etc) if you're unarmed. It's so obvious it numbs the mind. Hopefully both the US and Britain will eventually end up with something in the middle of strict and stupid laws.

Also Moat's weapons were hunting rifles and shotguns, which it would be pretty much impossible to ban in any case, so the case in the OP is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[xj0hnx]

11346 Homicides by gun in 2005. Makes gun control look fucking excellent, if you ask me!

Not hardly, but then again, no one asked you. With a population 5.08 times that of Britian, 309,730,000 people, with between 238 to 276 million firearms, and only 11,346 homicides (which by the way doesn't mean it was a crime) is what? .003 percent of the population? is it 4 or 5 times that, that are killed in car accidents every year? Where's your tears, and crying for those victims?

You anti-gun zealots are good for a hardy chuckle.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Not hardly, but then again, no one asked you. With a population 5.08 times that of Britian, 309,730,000 people, with between 238 to 276 million firearms, and only 11,346 homicides (which by the way doesn't mean it was a crime) is what? .003 percent of the population? is it 4 or 5 times that, that are killed in car accidents every year? Where's your tears, and crying for those victims?

You anti-gun zealots are good for a hardy chuckle.

Sorry, I must have missed something, why are we discussing car accidents?

 

[nick1985]

Not hardly, but then again, no one asked you. With a population 5.08 times that of Britian, 309,730,000 people, with between 238 to 276 million firearms, and only 11,346 homicides (which by the way doesn't mean it was a crime) is what? .003 percent of the population? is it 4 or 5 times that, that are killed in car accidents every year? Where's your tears, and crying for those victims?

You anti-gun zealots are good for a hardy chuckle.

Obviously this is accidental deaths, but you get the idea

 

[woolfe9999]

And the gun homicide rate in the US is several thousand percent higher than the UK.

Gun Homicides in UK per year: 38
Gun Homicide in US per year: ~11000

/Thread

Those stats are not per capita. Furthermore, you should be looking at overall homicides. The subset for gun homicides is misleading because if people don't have access to guns, they may simply switch to alternative killing methods. Earlier in the thread I cited comparative homicide stats - the actual difference is 3:1 per capita, not the ~300:1 that you implying here. Still, 3:1 sounds good. But then, other violent crimes are more prevelant in the UK than here, so that isn't so good.

In any event, these are all correlations without causative analysis. Both you and Nick are cherry picking stats to win an argument. You're both full of shit, and therefore you both LOSE.

- wolf

 

[DivideBYZero]

Those stats are not per capita. Furthermore, you should be looking at overall homicides. The subset for gun homicides is misleading because if people don't have access to guns, they may simply switch to alternative killing methods. Earlier in the thread I cited comparative homicide stats - the actual difference is 3:1 per capita, not the ~300:1 that you implying here. Still, 3:1 sounds good. But then, other violent crimes are more prevelant in the UK than here, so that isn't so good.

In any event, these are all correlations without causative analysis. Both you and Nick are cherry picking stats to win an argument. You're both full of shit, and therefore you both LOSE.

- wolf

To be fair I'm the only person presenting valid recent data and not claiming random causation or correlating x to y with no basis in fact.

I posted originally about the pointlessness of this clearly loaded troll post, but you cannot deny that less that 40 gun homicides vs 60m people is very impressive. To indulge you, per capita the numbers will be:

UK Gun Homicide 1 per 1578947
US Gun Homicide 1 per 26548

98.4% lower. I couldn't care less if some NRA member thinks I'm oppressed. Oppression for me is fear that drives you to live a life surrounded by so much threat you need to do everything armed with deadly force.

 

[xj0hnx]

Sorry, I must have missed something, why are we discussing car accidents?

You're whining is because people get killed by people with guns, I was pointing out that many times more people get killed by people with cars, if you can't follow the simple stuff, maybe you should crawl back under your rock.

 

[DivideBYZero]

You're whining is because people get killed by people with guns, I was pointing out that many times more people get killed by people with cars, if you can't follow the simple stuff, maybe you should crawl back under your rock.

You mad?

Point out where I whine about people being shot with guns. Yeah, it's not there. You just got a damp snatch about me 'hating guns', but it turns out you have jumped to an incorrect conclusion about me.

The thread isn't about car deaths, nobody but you is talking about them, so shut your yapper and move on to something more at your level, like explosive fishing or playing a banjo while on a rocking chair.

 

[xj0hnx]

You mad?

Mad? nope, laughing at you ...yes.

Point out where I whine about people being shot with guns. Yeah, it's not there. You just got a damp snatch about me 'hating guns', but it turns out you have jumped to an incorrect conclusion about me.

I couldn't careless what you hate, you are not relevant.

The thread isn't about car deaths, nobody but you is talking about them, so shut your yapper and move on to something more at your level, like explosive fishing or playing a banjo while on a rocking chair.

Cry more, it's funny. Just pointing out the fact that you don't actually care about people getting killed, just like the rest of the loony left you are only interested in people getting killed when it helps your agenda. Pathetically typical.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Mad? nope, laughing at you ...yes.



I couldn't careless what you hate, you are not relevant.



Cry more, it's funny. Just pointing out the fact that you don't actually care about people getting killed, just like the rest of the loony left you are only interested in people getting killed when it helps your agenda. Pathetically typical.

Is that it? :awe: I call you out and you suddenly couldn't "careless"?

Couldn't spell, more like. Self inflicted gun lobotomy? :hmm: