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So how's that gun prohibition working for you Brits?

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,377
64
91
you still can get weapons illegally or steal them.
The difference is that it's more difficult to get, and the average joe doesn't have one.
If there's a gun around you there are higher chances of you using it in a heated argument.

and anyway in london they stab each other with knives, but it takes more balls to penetrate someone with a knife.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
9
81
Going by relevant Stats, it works great.
yeap gun crime compared to the US is far down. now...knife crime is far far higher. but they are working on that now.


people need to get over the fact a gun/knife/bat was involved in a crime. a person who is going to commit a crime does not care what he needs to use to get what he wants.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,158
6
81
Going by relevant Stats, it works great.
Myth: Britain has strict gun control and a low crime rate

Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of crime – especially violent crime – has risen.

Fact: Ironically, firearm use in crimes has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned.46

Fact: Street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was up 11%, murders up 4%, and rapes are up 14%.48

Fact: This trend continues in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies

Fact: “... [There is] nothing in the statistics for England and Wales to suggest that either
the stricter controls on handguns prior to 1997 or the ban imposed since have controlled access to such firearms by criminals.”50

Fact: A continuing parliamentary inquiry into the growing number of black market
weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in
circulation – double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago – and that
criminals are more willing than ever to use them. One in three criminals under the age of
25 possesses or has access to a firearm. 53

Fact: Handgun homicides in England and Wales reached an all-time high in 2000, years
after a virtual ban on private handgun ownership. More than 3,000 crimes involving
handguns were recorded in 1999-2000, including the 42 homicides, 310 cases of
attempted murder, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries.54

Fact: Between 1997 and 1999, there were 429 murders in London, the highest two-year
figure for more than 10 years – nearly two-thirds of those involved firearms – in a
country that has virtually banned private firearm ownership.56

Fact: Over the last century, the British crime rate was largely unchanged. In the late
nineteenth century, the per capita homicide rate in Britain was between 1.0 and 1.5 per
100,000.57 In the late twentieth century, after a near ban on gun ownership, the homicide
rate is around 1.4.58 This shows that the homicide rate does not vary with either the level
of gun control or gun availability.

Fact: The U.K. has strict gun control and a rising homicide rate of 1.4 per 100,000.
Switzerland has the highest per capita firearm ownership rate on the planet (all males age
20 to 42 are required to keep rifles or pistols at home) has a homicide rate of 1.2 per
100,000. And to date, there has never been a schoolyard massacre in Switzerland.59

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf


Yep. Works great! :awe:
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,480
3,593
126
yeap gun crime compared to the US is far down. now...knife crime is far far higher. but they are working on that now.


people need to get over the fact a gun/knife/bat was involved in a crime. a person who is going to commit a crime does not care what he needs to use to get what he wants.
Irrelevant.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,480
3,593
126
Myth: Britain has strict gun control and a low crime rate

Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of crime – especially violent crime – has risen.

Fact: Ironically, firearm use in crimes has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned.46

Fact: Street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was up 11%, murders up 4%, and rapes are up 14%.48

Fact: This trend continues in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies

Fact: “... [There is] nothing in the statistics for England and Wales to suggest that either
the stricter controls on handguns prior to 1997 or the ban imposed since have controlled access to such firearms by criminals.”50

Fact: A continuing parliamentary inquiry into the growing number of black market
weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in
circulation – double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago – and that
criminals are more willing than ever to use them. One in three criminals under the age of
25 possesses or has access to a firearm. 53

Fact: Handgun homicides in England and Wales reached an all-time high in 2000, years
after a virtual ban on private handgun ownership. More than 3,000 crimes involving
handguns were recorded in 1999-2000, including the 42 homicides, 310 cases of
attempted murder, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries.54

Fact: Between 1997 and 1999, there were 429 murders in London, the highest two-year
figure for more than 10 years – nearly two-thirds of those involved firearms – in a
country that has virtually banned private firearm ownership.56

Fact: Over the last century, the British crime rate was largely unchanged. In the late
nineteenth century, the per capita homicide rate in Britain was between 1.0 and 1.5 per
100,000.57 In the late twentieth century, after a near ban on gun ownership, the homicide
rate is around 1.4.58 This shows that the homicide rate does not vary with either the level
of gun control or gun availability.

Fact: The U.K. has strict gun control and a rising homicide rate of 1.4 per 100,000.
Switzerland has the highest per capita firearm ownership rate on the planet (all males age
20 to 42 are required to keep rifles or pistols at home) has a homicide rate of 1.2 per
100,000. And to date, there has never been a schoolyard massacre in Switzerland.59

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf


Yep. Works great! :awe:
Irrelevant.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,023
5,106
126
I see there is more "firearm crime" than combined "violent crime."
Does firearm crime include gun possession without a permit or actual violent crime involving guns? This is like saying speeding is up after ramped up enforcement because there are more speeding tickets.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I see there is more "firearm crime" than combined "violent crime."
Does firearm crime include gun possession without a permit or actual violent crime involving guns? This is like saying speeding is up after ramped up enforcement because there are more speeding tickets.
I would think so too. Robbery is a violent crime. Maybe the chart is separating the two? As in violent crime = violent crime without a gun and firearm crime = violent crime with a firearm? It's hard to tell with just the chart.

The most important thing to take out of this is Britain drools and the USA rules.
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,240
2
76
This is like saying speeding is up after ramped up enforcement because there are more speeding tickets.
that would be, it works for DUI stats in the news and speeding to shove laws through, why can't it work for other stuff!
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,480
3,593
126
I'll let the rest of the forum be the judge of that.
More Irrelevancy. Consider this, why don't US Stats line up with Swiss Stats? Like I originally posted, the Relevant Stats show the Brits GC efforts to be a great success.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,482
4,155
126
Had Brittan not banned hand guns nobody there would now be alive. The ban has saved millions of lives.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
30,240
3,778
126
More Irrelevancy. Consider this, why don't US Stats line up with Swiss Stats? Like I originally posted, the Relevant Stats show the Brits GC efforts to be a great success.
If you want higher crime, then sure.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Nick1985 wins. Fatality.
How do you know he "wins?" Did you actually check his link, who the source is, and the sources it relies on? I spot checked it. First of all, the entire paper is written to supply talking points for pro-gun people to supply to the media and politicians. It says that this is its purpose right in the intro. More importantly, checking the sources of that paper leads to some very interesting results. The paper itself is not a primary source. Rather, it cherry picks information from other sources in order to assemble a series of talking points. And it misrepresents at least some of its own sources.

For example, it says "countries with the strictest gun control laws also had the highest homicide rates." It cites a source for that, a research paper by Jeffrey Miron. I checked the paper, which can be found here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/713887/posts

It says nothing of the sort. The author, who by the way is a staunch libertarian in favor of free gun owernship and against drug prohibition, actually acknowledges that homicide rates are lower in other western countries, most of which have stricter gun control laws; he only mentions a couple countries that don't fit the trend (i.e. a couple countries have lax gun control and low violence). Yet he acknowledges that there is an overall correlational trend. However, the author posits that correlation /= causation in this case. He instead posits a third variable - drug prohibition, as the causative factor. He points out that other western countries have similar drug laws, but tend not to enforce them criminally as we do in the U.S., and that this enforcement creates a violent black market drug trade here, which in turn increases the demand for guns intended to be used, and actually used, for violence. So his end conclusion is that it isn't gun control which reduces violence, but rather, decriminalization of drugs. However, nowhere does he say that, in general, countries with more gun control have higher homicide rates; to the contrary, he acknowledges the opposite, but provides an alterantive explanation. Nick's link has totally distorted that source.

That's just the first source I checked in the paper that Nick linked. Shall I bother to check more?

- wolf
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
2
0
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/07/07/2010-07-07_accused_killer_raoul_moat_eludes_cops_fugitive_gunman_leaves_behind_letter_tent_.html

Thought all those strict laws and punishments which put grandmas in jail for family heirlooms were supposed to prevent stuff like this. Just saying...
That cow is fvcked!

But nobody can say that "Fact: Ironically, firearm use in crimes has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned.46" is irrelevant top the topic at hand although of course a single crazy guy with a gun is not representative of much at all, for or against gun control as OP surely must know.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,158
6
81
Check them out wolf, here are all the sources for the information on Britain


46 Weapons sell for just £50 as suspects and victims grow ever younger, The Times, August 24, 2007.

47 YouGov survey of 2,156 residents in Sept 2007.

48 British Home Office, reported by BBC news, July 12, 2002.

49 Targeting Guns, Gary Kleck, Aldine Transaction, 1997, at 359.

50 Minutes of Evidence, Colin Greenwood, Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, January 29, 2003.

51 Fear in Britain, Gallant, Hills, Kopel, Independence Institute, July 18, 2000.

52 Crime Figures a Sham, Say Police, Daily Telegraph, April 1, 1996.

53 Reported in The Guardian, September 3, 2000.

54 42 killed by handguns last year, The Times, January 10, 2001, reporting on statistics supplied by the British Home Office.

55 Illegal Firearms in the UK, Centre for Defense Studies at King's College in London, July 2001.

56 Ibid.

57 Crime and Society in England 1750-1900, Clive Emsley, 1987, at 36.

58 Where Kids and Guns Do Mix, Stephen P. Halbrook, Wall Street Journal, June 1999.

59 Ibid.

60 Associated News Media, April 30, 2001.
 

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