Smoking bans...

[halik]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Thank God the government is here to watch over and protect me, as I am incapable of doing so myself. I don't smoke, I've never smoked, and I hate the smell of smoke. I'm so glad the government is willing to step in and tell everyone that they must cease the legal activity they enjoy so that I may feel comfortable in someone else's establishment. Thank God I live under a system that enforces my right to tell others what to do to make me happy. That's the American way!

Best post of the thread.

No, it's a bunch of drivel from faux-libertarian morons with 0 grasp of economics or public policy. Keep voting Ron Paul....

You can smoke all your want if you guarantee me that all your future health care cost associated with smoking will be out of pocket and none of the smoke enters anyone else's lungs.


Actually that goes for anything else for that matter; drive w/o seatbelt all you want but your family will be responsible for the cost of scraping your carcass off the highway.

Are you going be there to put the condom on everytime I have sex, too? :heart:

If you're planning on having sex with everyone in the room, against their wishes, then that's the least we can do...

My point is that your own economic and public policy is whack. Next thing we all know, you're going to want to ban extreme sports too, along with sex. OMG we could hurt and it might cost you money!

:roll:

I am amazed that you continue to miss the point that your actions negatively affect everyone else... coming up with blatantly false analogies is not helping either.

Next time you have sex, try to figure out how you doing it impact the helth of the guy living next door.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Did I read the part where it said "the same state that bans smoking is giving subsidies to bar owners to erect smoking rooms outside." incorrectly?

Why is this a bad thing?

Beats me, I think it sounds like a reasonable compromise.

As do I. Here in FL (in my area anyway) many restaurants and bars that fall into the smoke free rules have added or expanded outdoor seating to accommodate smoking guests.

Second Hand Smoke is still a health hazard! OMG WERE GOING TO DIE!!! AIEE!!!!

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Thank God the government is here to watch over and protect me, as I am incapable of doing so myself. I don't smoke, I've never smoked, and I hate the smell of smoke. I'm so glad the government is willing to step in and tell everyone that they must cease the legal activity they enjoy so that I may feel comfortable in someone else's establishment. Thank God I live under a system that enforces my right to tell others what to do to make me happy. That's the American way!

Best post of the thread.

No, it's a bunch of drivel from faux-libertarian morons with 0 grasp of economics or public policy. Keep voting Ron Paul....

You can smoke all your want if you guarantee me that all your future health care cost associated with smoking will be out of pocket and none of the smoke enters anyone else's lungs.


Actually that goes for anything else for that matter; drive w/o seatbelt all you want but your family will be responsible for the cost of scraping your carcass off the highway.

Are you going be there to put the condom on everytime I have sex, too? :heart:

If you're planning on having sex with everyone in the room, against their wishes, then that's the least we can do...

My point is that your own economic and public policy is whack. Next thing we all know, you're going to want to ban extreme sports too, along with sex. OMG we could hurt and it might cost you money!

:roll:

I am amazed that you continue to miss the point that your actions negatively affect everyone else... coming up with blatently false analogies is not helping either.

So, give us an example analogy because I don't see how the market isn't working.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Thank God the government is here to watch over and protect me, as I am incapable of doing so myself. I don't smoke, I've never smoked, and I hate the smell of smoke. I'm so glad the government is willing to step in and tell everyone that they must cease the legal activity they enjoy so that I may feel comfortable in someone else's establishment. Thank God I live under a system that enforces my right to tell others what to do to make me happy. That's the American way!

Best post of the thread.

No, it's a bunch of drivel from faux-libertarian morons with 0 grasp of economics or public policy. Keep voting Ron Paul....

You can smoke all your want if you guarantee me that all your future health care cost associated with smoking will be out of pocket and none of the smoke enters anyone else's lungs.


Actually that goes for anything else for that matter; drive w/o seatbelt all you want but your family will be responsible for the cost of scraping your carcass off the highway.

Are you going be there to put the condom on everytime I have sex, too? :heart:

If you're planning on having sex with everyone in the room, against their wishes, then that's the least we can do...

If you want to smoke, do it so that no one else is doing it with you.

My point is that your own economic and public policy is whack. Next thing we all know, you're going to want to ban extreme sports too, along with sex. OMG we could hurt and it might cost you money!

:roll:

I am amazed that you continue to miss the point that your actions negatively affect everyone else... coming up with blatently false analogies is not helping either.

So, give us an example analogy because I don't see how the market isn't working.

Why do you need an analogy? You smoking at the bar forces everyone else to smoke too. I mean that's about as straight forward as I can make it.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Thank God the government is here to watch over and protect me, as I am incapable of doing so myself. I don't smoke, I've never smoked, and I hate the smell of smoke. I'm so glad the government is willing to step in and tell everyone that they must cease the legal activity they enjoy so that I may feel comfortable in someone else's establishment. Thank God I live under a system that enforces my right to tell others what to do to make me happy. That's the American way!

Best post of the thread.

No, it's a bunch of drivel from faux-libertarian morons with 0 grasp of economics or public policy. Keep voting Ron Paul....

You can smoke all your want if you guarantee me that all your future health care cost associated with smoking will be out of pocket and none of the smoke enters anyone else's lungs.


Actually that goes for anything else for that matter; drive w/o seatbelt all you want but your family will be responsible for the cost of scraping your carcass off the highway.

Are you going be there to put the condom on everytime I have sex, too? :heart:

If you're planning on having sex with everyone in the room, against their wishes, then that's the least we can do...

My point is that your own economic and public policy is whack. Next thing we all know, you're going to want to ban extreme sports too, along with sex. OMG we could hurt and it might cost you money!

:roll:

We should definitely ban attendance to NASCAR races, because all those fumes and exhaust are dangerous, let alone the risk to people in the stands in the event of an accident.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Thank God the government is here to watch over and protect me, as I am incapable of doing so myself. I don't smoke, I've never smoked, and I hate the smell of smoke. I'm so glad the government is willing to step in and tell everyone that they must cease the legal activity they enjoy so that I may feel comfortable in someone else's establishment. Thank God I live under a system that enforces my right to tell others what to do to make me happy. That's the American way!

Best post of the thread.

No, it's a bunch of drivel from faux-libertarian morons with 0 grasp of economics or public policy. Keep voting Ron Paul....

You can smoke all your want if you guarantee me that all your future health care cost associated with smoking will be out of pocket and none of the smoke enters anyone else's lungs.


Actually that goes for anything else for that matter; drive w/o seatbelt all you want but your family will be responsible for the cost of scraping your carcass off the highway.

Are you going be there to put the condom on everytime I have sex, too? :heart:

If you're planning on having sex with everyone in the room, against their wishes, then that's the least we can do...

If you want to smoke, do it so that no one else is doing it with you.

My point is that your own economic and public policy is whack. Next thing we all know, you're going to want to ban extreme sports too, along with sex. OMG we could hurt and it might cost you money!

:roll:

I am amazed that you continue to miss the point that your actions negatively affect everyone else... coming up with blatently false analogies is not helping either.

So, give us an example analogy because I don't see how the market isn't working.

Why do you need an analogy? You smoking at the bar forces everyone else to smoke too. I mean that's about as straight forward as I can make it.

So, why can't you goto a non-smoking bar. They exists because of the demand.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Thank God the government is here to watch over and protect me, as I am incapable of doing so myself. I don't smoke, I've never smoked, and I hate the smell of smoke. I'm so glad the government is willing to step in and tell everyone that they must cease the legal activity they enjoy so that I may feel comfortable in someone else's establishment. Thank God I live under a system that enforces my right to tell others what to do to make me happy. That's the American way!

Best post of the thread.

No, it's a bunch of drivel from faux-libertarian morons with 0 grasp of economics or public policy. Keep voting Ron Paul....

You can smoke all your want if you guarantee me that all your future health care cost associated with smoking will be out of pocket and none of the smoke enters anyone else's lungs.


Actually that goes for anything else for that matter; drive w/o seatbelt all you want but your family will be responsible for the cost of scraping your carcass off the highway.

Are you going be there to put the condom on everytime I have sex, too? :heart:

If you're planning on having sex with everyone in the room, against their wishes, then that's the least we can do...

My point is that your own economic and public policy is whack. Next thing we all know, you're going to want to ban extreme sports too, along with sex. OMG we could hurt and it might cost you money!

:roll:

I am amazed that you continue to miss the point that your actions negatively affect everyone else... coming up with blatantly false analogies is not helping either.

Next time you have sex, try to figure out how you doing it impact the helth of the guy living next door.

I didn't miss that point. In fact, you are a step behind me here, in failing to realize that your actions negatively affect me (and everyone else) as much my actions negative affect you (and everyone else). So, in effect, they cancel out, and yet you're trying to play holier than thou. It's BS.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Smoking is a useless filthy habit. The companies should be sued out of existence. Smoking has zero health benefits. If I wanted to make a product today, to be consumed like cigarettes, that provided zero health benefits, caused cancer, lung disease, heart disease, and numerous other complications as well as having similar effects to those around me while I consumed that product, I would be shut down.
The ONLY reason they (big/small tobacco) are still around is because of the $$ they put in the political coffer. Death merchants is all they are. Cheap, pandering, lying merchants of death.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: halik
Why do you need an analogy? You smoking at the bar forces everyone else to smoke too. I mean that's about as straight forward as I can make it.

So, why can't you goto a non-smoking bar. They exists because of the demand.

Apparently he shouldn't have to, I guess?

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Thank God the government is here to watch over and protect me, as I am incapable of doing so myself. I don't smoke, I've never smoked, and I hate the smell of smoke. I'm so glad the government is willing to step in and tell everyone that they must cease the legal activity they enjoy so that I may feel comfortable in someone else's establishment. Thank God I live under a system that enforces my right to tell others what to do to make me happy. That's the American way!

Best post of the thread.

No, it's a bunch of drivel from faux-libertarian morons with 0 grasp of economics or public policy. Keep voting Ron Paul....

You can smoke all your want if you guarantee me that all your future health care cost associated with smoking will be out of pocket and none of the smoke enters anyone else's lungs.


Actually that goes for anything else for that matter; drive w/o seatbelt all you want but your family will be responsible for the cost of scraping your carcass off the highway.

Are you going be there to put the condom on everytime I have sex, too? :heart:

If you're planning on having sex with everyone in the room, against their wishes, then that's the least we can do...

My point is that your own economic and public policy is whack. Next thing we all know, you're going to want to ban extreme sports too, along with sex. OMG we could hurt and it might cost you money!

:roll:

I am amazed that you continue to miss the point that your actions negatively affect everyone else... coming up with blatantly false analogies is not helping either.

Next time you have sex, try to figure out how you doing it impact the helth of the guy living next door.

I didn't miss that point. In fact, you are a step behind me here, in failing to realize that your actions negatively affect me (and everyone else) as much my actions negative affect you (and everyone else). So, in effect, they cancel out, and yet you're trying to play holier than thou. It's BS.

I agree it's a zero sum game, but the difference is that smoking is a public BAD where as not smoking a public GOOD. Government is in the business of encouraging public GOODS and discouraging public BADs (Econ101).

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Thank God the government is here to watch over and protect me, as I am incapable of doing so myself. I don't smoke, I've never smoked, and I hate the smell of smoke. I'm so glad the government is willing to step in and tell everyone that they must cease the legal activity they enjoy so that I may feel comfortable in someone else's establishment. Thank God I live under a system that enforces my right to tell others what to do to make me happy. That's the American way!

Best post of the thread.

No, it's a bunch of drivel from faux-libertarian morons with 0 grasp of economics or public policy. Keep voting Ron Paul....

You can smoke all your want if you guarantee me that all your future health care cost associated with smoking will be out of pocket and none of the smoke enters anyone else's lungs.


Actually that goes for anything else for that matter; drive w/o seatbelt all you want but your family will be responsible for the cost of scraping your carcass off the highway.

Are you going be there to put the condom on everytime I have sex, too? :heart:

If you're planning on having sex with everyone in the room, against their wishes, then that's the least we can do...

My point is that your own economic and public policy is whack. Next thing we all know, you're going to want to ban extreme sports too, along with sex. OMG we could hurt and it might cost you money!

:roll:

We should definitely ban attendance to NASCAR races, because all those fumes and exhaust are dangerous, let alone the risk to people in the stands in the event of an accident.

When you show me a study that proves a connection between NASCAR and health care costs, I'll be the first one to argue for taxes a la cigarettes/booze.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: halik
Why do you need an analogy? You smoking at the bar forces everyone else to smoke too. I mean that's about as straight forward as I can make it.

So, why can't you goto a non-smoking bar. They exists because of the demand.

Apparently he shouldn't have to, I guess?

My argument for that is as follows:

When you go to any bar that allows smoking, the number of actual smokers won't be more than 10%. So the other 90% of people don't smoke, but go to this bar anyway. This essentially voids your argument, since the free market results you argue for would have mostly smokers in smoking bars and mostly non-smokers in non-smoker bars.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
Smoking is a useless filthy habit. The companies should be sued out of existence. Smoking has zero health benefits. If I wanted to make a product today, to be consumed like cigarettes, that provided zero health benefits, caused cancer, lung disease, heart disease, and numerous other complications as well as having similar effects to those around me while I consumed that product, I would be shut down.
The ONLY reason they (big/small tobacco) are still around is because of the $$ they put in the political coffer. Death merchants is all they are. Cheap, pandering, lying merchants of death.

So, if the alcoholic beverage were invented today you'd have no problem with that being banned?

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
Smoking is a useless filthy habit. The companies should be sued out of existence. Smoking has zero health benefits. If I wanted to make a product today, to be consumed like cigarettes, that provided zero health benefits, caused cancer, lung disease, heart disease, and numerous other complications as well as having similar effects to those around me while I consumed that product, I would be shut down.
The ONLY reason they (big/small tobacco) are still around is because of the $$ they put in the political coffer. Death merchants is all they are. Cheap, pandering, lying merchants of death.

So, if the alcoholic beverage were invented today you'd have no problem with that being banned?

sodas w/ caffiene?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
Smoking is a useless filthy habit. The companies should be sued out of existence. Smoking has zero health benefits. If I wanted to make a product today, to be consumed like cigarettes, that provided zero health benefits, caused cancer, lung disease, heart disease, and numerous other complications as well as having similar effects to those around me while I consumed that product, I would be shut down.
The ONLY reason they (big/small tobacco) are still around is because of the $$ they put in the political coffer. Death merchants is all they are. Cheap, pandering, lying merchants of death.

So, if the alcoholic beverage were invented today you'd have no problem with that being banned?

No, there are actual health benefits from alcohol, red wine, and other spirits in moderation.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
Smoking is a useless filthy habit. The companies should be sued out of existence. Smoking has zero health benefits. If I wanted to make a product today, to be consumed like cigarettes, that provided zero health benefits, caused cancer, lung disease, heart disease, and numerous other complications as well as having similar effects to those around me while I consumed that product, I would be shut down.
The ONLY reason they (big/small tobacco) are still around is because of the $$ they put in the political coffer. Death merchants is all they are. Cheap, pandering, lying merchants of death.

So, if the alcoholic beverage were invented today you'd have no problem with that being banned?

sodas w/ caffiene?

You guys really want to compare Pepsi to Marlboro? Or a glass of red wine to a pack of Camels? really?

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Genx87
I hate smoking but these bans are overbearing govt at work imo. MN is great. They ban smoking in the metro area and the bars on the outskirts flourish. So they spread the misery across the entire state. Now bars in Wisc across the border are hopping and they are pressuring wisc to ban smoking.

Then to add insult to injury the same state that bans smoking is giving subsidies to bar owners to erect smoking rooms outside. WTF? HUH? What purpose does the smoking ban server if the state helps to build rooms to smoke in?

btw one of the biggest nanny stater who pushed through the smoking bans was a huge smoker who wanted to quit. Apparently he felt the best way for him to quit was to outlaw the practive for the states 4.5 million residents as well.

What a fucking douchebag.

While I don't agree with this smoking ban garbage, building seperate rooms does NOT violate the spirit of the law. The idea is that people can go to bars and not be subjected to tons of cigarette smoke - having smokers in a seperate area alleviates that problem.

Yes, it does. It's part of the bar, the voters voted for no smoking in the bar.

The point of the law is that people can go to a bar without being subjected to cigarette smoke. Thus, building seperate rooms would allow that. How is that not upholding the spirit of the law?

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
Smoking is a useless filthy habit. The companies should be sued out of existence. Smoking has zero health benefits. If I wanted to make a product today, to be consumed like cigarettes, that provided zero health benefits, caused cancer, lung disease, heart disease, and numerous other complications as well as having similar effects to those around me while I consumed that product, I would be shut down.
The ONLY reason they (big/small tobacco) are still around is because of the $$ they put in the political coffer. Death merchants is all they are. Cheap, pandering, lying merchants of death.

There is actually some evidence that it may help fight Parkinson's disease
I can't argue much with the rest of it, but that's all beside the point as long as tobacco is still legal.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Sheik Yerbouti
Smoking is a useless filthy habit. The companies should be sued out of existence. Smoking has zero health benefits. If I wanted to make a product today, to be consumed like cigarettes, that provided zero health benefits, caused cancer, lung disease, heart disease, and numerous other complications as well as having similar effects to those around me while I consumed that product, I would be shut down.
The ONLY reason they (big/small tobacco) are still around is because of the $$ they put in the political coffer. Death merchants is all they are. Cheap, pandering, lying merchants of death.

So, if the alcoholic beverage were invented today you'd have no problem with that being banned?

sodas w/ caffiene?

You guys really want to compare Pepsi to Marlboro? Or a glass of red wine to a pack of Camels? really?

Why not? It's unhealthy! Seriously, I goto bed on time why can't the rest of my co-workers?

Oh wait, they got hammered last night...

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Genx87
I hate smoking but these bans are overbearing govt at work imo. MN is great. They ban smoking in the metro area and the bars on the outskirts flourish. So they spread the misery across the entire state. Now bars in Wisc across the border are hopping and they are pressuring wisc to ban smoking.

Then to add insult to injury the same state that bans smoking is giving subsidies to bar owners to erect smoking rooms outside. WTF? HUH? What purpose does the smoking ban server if the state helps to build rooms to smoke in?

btw one of the biggest nanny stater who pushed through the smoking bans was a huge smoker who wanted to quit. Apparently he felt the best way for him to quit was to outlaw the practive for the states 4.5 million residents as well.

What a fucking douchebag.

While I don't agree with this smoking ban garbage, building seperate rooms does NOT violate the spirit of the law. The idea is that people can go to bars and not be subjected to tons of cigarette smoke - having smokers in a seperate area alleviates that problem.

Yes, it does. It's part of the bar, the voters voted for no smoking in the bar.

The point of the law is that people can go to a bar without being subjected to cigarette smoke. Thus, building seperate rooms would allow that. How is that not upholding the spirit of the law?

But But But there will a part of the bar that has smoke!

 

[SAWYER]

Banned smoking at a cigar bar? You have got to be shittin me [face_disbelief]

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: halik
My argument for that is as follows:

When you go to any bar that allows smoking, the number of actual smokers won't be more than 10%. So the other 90% of people don't smoke, but go to this bar anyway. This essentially voids your argument, since the free market results you argue for would have mostly smokers in smoking bars and mostly non-smokers in non-smoker bars.

In regards to what I put in bold, why? Why do they go anyway?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: halik
I agree it's a zero sum game, but the difference is that smoking is a public BAD where as not smoking a public GOOD. Government is in the business of encouraging public GOODS and discouraging public BADs (Econ101).

And we're discussing bans in privately-owned establishments, not public buildings. The public has a choice as to whether or not they wish to patronage these privately-owned establishments. Particularly as many of these establishments have already done non-smoking all on their own, providing the public with more than adequate choice. Regulation is unnecessary.

edit: BTW you changed your argument.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: halik
My argument for that is as follows:

When you go to any bar that allows smoking, the number of actual smokers won't be more than 10%. So the other 90% of people don't smoke, but go to this bar anyway. This essentially voids your argument, since the free market results you argue for would have mostly smokers in smoking bars and mostly non-smokers in non-smoker bars.

In regards to what I put in bold, why? Why do they go anyway?

I mentioned that earlier in the thread, the cost on an individual level is tiny, but on aggregate level is huge (health care costs). It's kind of a market failure - no individual has enough incentive do fix it themselves, even though it would be better for all of us.

Tariffs on sugar are a great example of this phenomena - every U.S. household pays around $100-200 bucks a year more for sugar due to tariffs, but no one will overturn them since the cost of doing so is more than the $100-200 you would save over a year's time.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: halik
Why do you need an analogy? You smoking at the bar forces everyone else to smoke too. I mean that's about as straight forward as I can make it.

So, why can't you goto a non-smoking bar. They exists because of the demand.

Apparently he shouldn't have to, I guess?

My argument for that is as follows:

When you go to any bar that allows smoking, the number of actual smokers won't be more than 10%. So the other 90% of people don't smoke, but go to this bar anyway. This essentially voids your argument, since the free market results you argue for would have mostly smokers in smoking bars and mostly non-smokers in non-smoker bars.

I don't know where you go to but here it's usually the vast majority are smokers 75% in the cheap dive bar and dwindles down to 35% in the nicer places...

Not that this is even relevant in a private establishment.