Should states ban trans athletes from competing?

[mindless1]

Ban it, then let them play as their birth gender.

Only real difference is in the pelvic bones.

Thats. Just. Absurd.

 

[Brovane]

Everyone already knows that Lia wasn't all that good competing against men.

You know that because FOX news told you that?

 

[MrSquished]

Ban it, then let them play as their birth gender.



Thats. Just. Absurd.

I'd prefer to leave it in the hands of doctors and sporting experts then to dbags on the Internet on a sport by sport basis

 

[zinfamous]

I thinks extremely sad and selfish to see parents promoting the idea only for their kid to compete better in sports for scholarships and attention.

this is preposterously stupid thing you are thinking people are doing.

Are you actually this stupid, or are you posting egregious dumbshit for attention?

 

[Jaskalas]

Or did you have some stats that show parents doing things to kids to change their sex that doctors and physiologists wouldn’t approve of?

Why would their ideas be automatically accepted?
Those who suffer from dysphoria should be encouraged to love themselves as they are, not as someone else tells them to be.
It is disagreement over this that is the crux of the issue.
I will never accept harmful drugs or mutilation as treatment for mental illness.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Why would their ideas be automatically accepted?
Those who suffer from dysphoria should be encouraged to love themselves as they are, not as someone else tells them to be.
It is disagreement over this that is the crux of the issue.
I will never accept harmful drugs or mutilation as treatment for mental illness.

Seens like you have some things fundamentally wrong, like how to help individuals with gender dysphoria to address the issue.

Unless you're a clinical psychologist dealing with such matters, but my guess is you aren't. So leave best practices to the professionals.

 

[ivwshane]

Why would their ideas be automatically accepted?
Those who suffer from dysphoria should be encouraged to love themselves as they are, not as someone else tells them to be.
It is disagreement over this that is the crux of the issue.
I will never accept harmful drugs or mutilation as treatment for mental illness.

You notice how you didn’t address my question? Why do you think that is?

 

[DaaQ]

orly?

"A study in the Journal of Applied Physiology found that men had an average of 26 lbs. (12 kilograms) more skeletal muscle mass than women. Women also exhibited about 40 percent less upper-body strength and 33 percent less lower-body strength, on average, the study found.Dec 7, 2015"


Once you get past roughly second grade-age males are overwhelmingly larger, faster and stronger (on average) and it isn't even slightly debatable... or close.

IIRC you are a DR. correct?

The only difference in the skeletal system of male and female is the angle of the pelvic bones, correct? Or is it only if they had given birth? I was referencing the skeletal system between the genders. Specifically.

 

[Captante]

IIRC you are a DR. correct?

The only difference in the skeletal system of male and female is the angle of the pelvic bones, correct? Or is it only if they had given birth? I was referencing the skeletal system between the genders. Specifically.

Negative on being a medical-professional but I'm flattered ... I just like to read a lot!



Do you really think a medical degree is required to understand what I posted though?

I'll simplify it for you.... structurally men's and women's muscles/bones are NOT identical. Men's have substantially more mass on average and thus more physical strength/speed/endurance .... this isn't my opinion it's a fact. (for evidence see nearly EVERY SINGLE record in sports)

If you have a credible source proving me wrong I encourage you to post it.

 

[thraashman]

It's weird that the party of small government wants the government to be involved in something that comes up very rarely and should be decided on a school district level.

 

[Captante]

It's weird that the party of small government wants the government to be involved in something that comes up very rarely and should be decided on a school district level.

Not really.... it's only "weird" if you trust the explanations they give.

For the GOP this isn't actually about "protecting" anyone, but rather it's about playing up to the fears of the uneducated morons who vote for them and even more importantly it's about staying in power.

However just because the GOP/far-right is full of crap when it comes to actual motivations does not mean the entire issue is nonsense.

 

[nakedfrog]

Government shouldn't be involved, but the organizations that should be managing this won't act.
To me this is nothing more than men dominating women. I have no respect for them at all.

Won't they?

USA Swimming tightens rules for trans women

USA Swimming has announced new policies governing the participation of transgender women in elite competition.

www.espn.com

Effective immediately, transgender women swimmers who are USA Swimming athletes must maintain a testosterone level below 5 nanomoles per liter continuously for at least 36 months before competition.

In addition to testosterone levels, transgender women must provide evidence that they do not have a competitive advantage from being assigned male at birth. The evidence will be reviewed by a panel of three independent medical experts.

On Jan. 19, the NCAA announced that, effective immediately, it would adopt, on a sport-by-sport basis, the policies of national governing bodies to determine eligibility for transgender athletes.

They probably don't respect you either, nor should they

 

[nakedfrog]

orly?

"A study in the Journal of Applied Physiology found that men had an average of 26 lbs. (12 kilograms) more skeletal muscle mass than women. Women also exhibited about 40 percent less upper-body strength and 33 percent less lower-body strength, on average, the study found.Dec 7, 2015"


Once you get past roughly second grade-age males are overwhelmingly larger, faster and stronger (on average) and it isn't even slightly debatable... or close.

That muscle disappears on HRT, it's only there because of testosterone. Similarly, trans men gain muscle because of their HRT.

 

[nakedfrog]

Why would their ideas be automatically accepted?
Those who suffer from dysphoria should be encouraged to love themselves as they are, not as someone else tells them to be.
It is disagreement over this that is the crux of the issue.
I will never accept harmful drugs or mutilation as treatment for mental illness.

Which drugs do they receive? Which ones are harmful? Is surgery for a congenital heart defect also mutilation?
Educate yourself, you clearly know nothing about this from a medical perspective.

 

[FlawleZ]

The idea here is really simple: If you feel that Trans Athletes should get to choose whether they play in Men's or Women's sports, and you think that's actually fair for everyone involved, then you must also think that athletics should no longer be divided into Men's and Women's.

There seems to be a number of people here that have no experience or knowledge of competitive sports yet they want to interject their opinion as if they know better. Even worse, there are some here who are denying science and biology as we know it.

This shouldn't be a political issue but it's being made into one. I wonder which political party science is a member of?

 

[Fenixgoon]

The idea here is really simple: If you feel that Trans Athletes should get to choose whether they play in Men's or Women's sports, and you think that's actually fair for everyone involved, then you must also think that athletics should no longer be divided into Men's and Women's.

There seems to be a number of people here that have no experience or knowledge of competitive sports yet they want to interject their opinion as if they know better. Even worse, there are some here who are denying science and biology as we know it.

This shouldn't be a political issue but it's being made into one. I wonder which political party science is a member of?

i mean....this has to be the greatest bit of sarcasm ever posted on this forum. right? ............................right?

 

[Captante]

That muscle disappears on HRT, it's only there because of testosterone. Similarly, trans men gain muscle because of their HRT.

Does zero for bone-density though.

Gender Disparities in Osteoporosis: (2017 / Natl Library of Medicine)

"Males tend to have a higher lean mass percentage compared with females, which was shown in a small study of a group of 36 healthy males and females with a comparable body size and a mean age of 18 years. Controlling for lean mass, males had 8% higher bone density at the hip than females. In a subset of males and females in the same study who were matched for hip bone area, males still had greater bone mineral density and content at the hip.

In summary, males tend to have higher bone density and content and they achieve it at later age compared with females. This difference is not explained by nutrition, level of physical activity, body weight or lean mass, but it may be because of the bone size."

Won't they?

USA Swimming tightens rules for trans women

USA Swimming has announced new policies governing the participation of transgender women in elite competition.

www.espn.com

They probably don't respect you either, nor should they

Glad to hear this is being addressed.


Serious question though:

"transgender women must provide evidence that they do not have a competitive advantage from being assigned male at birth"

*(from ESPN link above)

How do they go about doing this fairly?

Sounds like something that wouldn't apply to anyone "assigned male at birth" who was actually a competitive athlete as a male prior to taking hormones/having surgery. (if you can effectively compete against a team of males, chances are you'll dominate a team of females in the same sport)

 

[nakedfrog]

Glad to hear this is being addressed.


Serious question though:

"transgender women must provide evidence that they do not have a competitive advantage from being assigned male at birth"

*(from ESPN link above)

How do they go about doing this fairly?

Sounds like something that wouldn't apply to anyone "assigned male at birth" who was actually a competitive athlete as a male prior to taking hormones/having surgery. (if you can effectively compete against a team of males, chances are you'll dominate a team of females in the same sport)

I don't know, are you saying you don't trust the panel of three independent medical experts that would review the evidence?
I really don't think you've educated yourself on what the actual effects of HRT are, I know trans women who laugh about the fact that they can no longer open pickle jars, or can't change the wheels on their car anymore because they're no longer strong enough.

 

[nakedfrog]

Does zero for bone-density though.

Gender Disparities in Osteoporosis: (2017 / Natl Library of Medicine)

"Males tend to have a higher lean mass percentage compared with females, which was shown in a small study of a group of 36 healthy males and females with a comparable body size and a mean age of 18 years. Controlling for lean mass, males had 8% higher bone density at the hip than females. In a subset of males and females in the same study who were matched for hip bone area, males still had greater bone mineral density and content at the hip.

In summary, males tend to have higher bone density and content and they achieve it at later age compared with females. This difference is not explained by nutrition, level of physical activity, body weight or lean mass, but it may be because of the bone size."

So what does an 8% difference in bone density at the hip correlate to in the form of athletic performance?
Also bear in mind "a small study group of 36 people".

 

[DaaQ]

Negative on being a medical-professional but I'm flattered ... I just like to read a lot!



Do you really think a medical degree is required to understand what I posted though?

I'll simplify it for you.... structurally men's and women's muscles/bones are NOT identical. Men's have substantially more mass on average and thus more physical strength/speed/endurance .... this isn't my opinion it's a fact. (for evidence see nearly EVERY SINGLE record in sports)

If you have a credible source proving me wrong I encourage you to post it.

I'll admit I was being quite morbid, when I posted, I'll also admit I was wrong on some things.

I was thinking more along the lines of forensically, because I really don't care all too much for sports in general, especially below Pro levels, because the kids are taken advantage of or are pushed into something more vicariously through their parents. Through no fault of the child.

About the only professional sport, I'll generally watch is MMA.

Anyway the pelvis is the main indicator of a skeletons gender, but the head and ribs are also used to identify them. Once maturation is complete, the male skeleton will have more mass and be generally taller within the same population.
Source

The younger the body during development though reduces the other factors such as mass and density, height and bone roughness.

I do agree it should be up to the Athletic governing bodies to determine their guidelines.

I think it is completely ridiculous though that someone would go through gender reassignment to gain a competitive edge in sports. Period.

This is why I posted the Strong Woman, and Randy Savage meme from South Park. Because that is what alot of people think is happening, just saying I identify as female and then immediately competing in Women's Divisions.

If you have never seen that particular episode, or have never watched South Park, it is season 23 episode 7. Worth a watch.


Regards to being a Dr. I must have you confused with another user, the Covid thread has been pretty dormant.

 

[Zorba]

Everyone already knows that Lia wasn't all that good competing against men.

Her times as a man would've set world records as a woman. It's clear her performance dropped dramatically.

I've decided to withhold any fear on this subject until there is actually a documented issue. Even then, it should be handled by the sports associations. The associations will have incentives to handle it fairly, just like have servers have an incentive to ban cheaters.

BTW: People always say no one changes their minds on here, just not true. A few years ago I was completely against any transwomen in women's sports, but people here made me realize the fears were almost entirely bullshit.

 

[Zorba]

I highly doubt the scholarship aspect.
Most parents put their kids into sports whether the kid wants to play the sport or not. I would wager it is particularly high in primary and middle schools.

Obviously you've never been around sports parents. I know many people that had their kids start kindergarten a year late so they would have a better shot at getting a scholarship. IMHO, that is a much bigger issue than transwomen in sports. Which happens directly to about 6% of the population, and indirectly (repeating kindergarten) to another 6%.

Not saying people will change genders for a chance of getting a scholarship, though. Especially if it doesn't give the person automatic dominance.

 

[JWade]

why not give them their own sports? men, women, trans.

 

[Zorba]

why not give them their own sports? men, women, trans.

Because it takes a critical mass to have a sports league. Also transmen would destroy transwomen.

 

[Commodus]

why not give them their own sports? men, women, trans.

Likely because it would amount to delegitimizing gender identity — you're not considered a 'real' man or woman as you're isolated in competitions.

It's a tricky issue, but I just can't find myself getting upset at trans people competing in sports that match their gender. I see an obsession over this like I do those people who whine about "woke" media all the time — it says more about the complainer than it does about the target of their wrath.