Should states ban trans athletes from competing?

[nakedfrog]

I think it is completely ridiculous though that someone would go through gender reassignment to gain a competitive edge in sports. Period.

Even if they were, it generally seems that when people who aren't trans take cross-sex hormones, it makes them feel like shit.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I'd also like to point out that the dubiousness of the poll.
"True birth gender"
1) gender is a social construct. So it should be sex at birth.
2) "true" asserts that the person's sexual identity is somehow wrong/false because it doesn't match their sex at birth. The best analogy I can think of is try telling someone they're not depressed or in pain because they don't look it and see what kind of reaction you get

 

[Captante]

I don't know, are you saying you don't trust the panel of three independent medical experts that would review the evidence?

That depends.... I have no idea what criteria will be used to determine if a trans athlete can compete so at the moment I have no factual basis to trust or distrust.

And other than comparing performance to an average "born-female" athlete of roughly the same size/age/height and possibly a "before/after" comparison with the trans-athlete's own numbers what meaningful criteria could they use?

 

[nakedfrog]

That depends.... I have no idea what criteria will be used to determine if a trans athlete can compete so at the moment I have no factual basis to trust or distrust.

And other than comparing performance to an average "born-female" athlete of roughly the same size/age/height and possibly a "before/after" comparison with the trans-athlete's own numbers what meaningful criteria could they use?

Well, I'm not any kind of expert, but possibly muscle/fat composition, VO2 max, that kind of thing? There's a whole field of fitness science, so there are probably other points of reference.

 

[Captante]

I know trans women who laugh about the fact that they can no longer open pickle jars, or can't change the wheels on their car anymore because they're no longer strong enough.

Yeah no question about it.... men are inherently a lot stronger then women.

Hence my original point.

I'm not aware of any studies comparing the performance of trans-female/woman athletes before and after hormones and/or surgery and I have no doubt some significant performance/strength advantage is lost in the process, HOWEVER I do not believe all of it is.

 

[fskimospy]

why not give them their own sports? men, women, trans.

Because the number of trans people is incredibly small. That’s one of the main reasons this whole controversy is so silly.

 

[nakedfrog]

Yeah no question about it.... men are inherently a lot stronger then women.

Hence my original point.

I'm not aware of any studies comparing the performance of trans-female/woman athletes before and after hormones and/or surgery and I have no doubt some significant performance/strength advantage is lost in the process, HOWEVER I do not believe all of it is.

Well, that's a belief, and I don't know that your belief is supported by data. We're still kind of in the infancy of studies on this, so we'll see how it goes, since there can be conflicting results, and generally small sample sizes.

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators - PubMed

The 15-31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Prior to gender affirming hormones, transwomen performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in 1 min and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster than their female counterparts. After 2 years of taking feminising hormones, the push-up and sit-up differences disappeared but transwomen were still 12% faster. Prior to gender affirming hormones, transmen performed 43% fewer push-ups and ran 1.5 miles 15% slower than their male counterparts. After 1 year of taking masculinising hormones, there was no longer a difference in push-ups or run times, and the number of sit-ups performed in 1 min by transmen exceeded the average performance of their male counterparts.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

Harper also calculated each subject's age grade, a common metric in track and field and distance running that reflects an athlete's performance compared with the fastest known time by someone of the same age and sex. Harper showed that the athletes' age grades before and after hormone therapy remained nearly the same. That is, the women were as competitive with their age- and sex-matched peers as they had been when competing against men. They weren't, in other words, likely to dominate women's races. "No one had previously looked at actual performance of transgender athletes pre- and posttransition," Vilain says.

This one is a bit more complex (and even references the Air Force study:

• Longitudinal and cross-sectional studies identify that hormone therapy in transwomen decreases muscle cross-sectional area, lean body mass, strength and haemogloblin levels, with noted differences in the time course of change.
• Haemoglobin levels decrease to those seen in cisgender women after 4 months of hormone therapy. In contrast, despite significant decreases in muscle cross-sectional area, lean body mass and strength after 12–36 months of hormone therapy, values remain higher than that in cisgender women.
• It is possible that transwomen competing in sports may retain strength advantages over cisgender women, even after 3 years of hormone therapy.

But in any case, it certainly doesn't seem to be as cut-and-dry as you seem to think. It could also be confounded by differences in hormone levels and method of administration--but then, even cis people have fluctuations in hormone levels.

 

[Captante]

Well, that's a belief, and I don't know that your belief is supported by data

Seems like it kind of is based on a lot of the stuff you posted.... which is some interesting reading btw.

I'm no "expert" either and I never claimed to know a whole lot about the subject however one thing that's clear to me now is there's not a whole lot of actual data to be had anywhere.

 

[nakedfrog]

Seems like it kind of is based on a lot of the stuff you posted.... which is some interesting reading btw.

I'm no "expert" either and I never claimed to know a whole lot about the subject however one thing that's clear to me now is there's not a whole lot of actual data to be had anywhere.

I guess we're taking different things away from the data.

 

[brandonbull]

No they fucking don't.

Yes they do.

 

[EduCat]

oof

 

[Luna1968]

fully support the ban. having males pretending to be females to compete against females and shattering sports records and snatching away opportunities that women have fought for is wrong. if trans want to do sport then do your own trans sports.

 

[Luna1968]

oof

wow seahawks girl is a piece of work. lol wow. so much fail.

 

[ch33zw1z]

fully support the ban. having males pretending to be females to compete against females and shattering sports records and snatching away opportunities that women have fought for is wrong. if trans want to do sport then do your own trans sports.

Small government conservative checking in

 

[nOOky]

Well, I'm not any kind of expert, but possibly muscle/fat composition, VO2 max, that kind of thing? There's a whole field of fitness science, so there are probably other points of reference.

If people want to think that women and men truly are on an equivalent footing after hormone therapy etc. then gender-specific sports should be removed, and everyone, female, male, trans etc. can all compete in the same events against one another. That's true equality eh?

Seriously though, when they are kids who really cares other than the parents. It's the parents driving all of this, the kids would happily play and race together if they were just left alone. It's when they get old enough to be influenced by their shitty parents that the kids themselves start believing the same nonsense.

 

[Captante]

gender-specific sports should be removed

Awesome .... that way "STRAIGHT" MEN can 99% dominate ALL sports the way GAWD INTENDED!!11!!!1!

/s *(for the benefit of those a bit slow on the uptake)

(this is intended as sarcasm BUT it would also undoubtedly be the end-result)








Hopefully the absurdity of the above post illustrates the point.... females represent OVER 50% of the US population vs less then 2% that is trans and thus take precedence over any group of males.

It's not about "feels" or opinion.... trans-people are 100% PEOPLE and are entitled to having their rights protected, however (no matter how anyone FEELS about it sorry) they are NOT biologically any sex other then the one they were born with and this fact is not compatible with fair competition for actual females.

We DO need to find a way to protect the rights of our trans-athletes BUT not by taking a dump on the rights of elite female athletes to have their achievements recognized.

 

[Zorba]

If people want to think that women and men truly are on an equivalent footing after hormone therapy etc. then gender-specific sports should be removed, and everyone, female, male, trans etc. can all compete in the same events against one another. That's true equality eh?

Seriously though, when they are kids who really cares other than the parents. It's the parents driving all of this, the kids would happily play and race together if they were just left alone. It's when they get old enough to be influenced by their shitty parents that the kids themselves start believing the same nonsense.

WTF are you talking about? You could argue (but really, I only care what science argues) that a transwomen on hormones still has an advantage over females. But there is no way you can claim they are still equivalent to men.

 

[HomerJS]

wow seahawks girl is a piece of work. lol wow. so much fail.

She didn't come off very well. However, this guy either misrepresented himself or outright lied. A major part of the discussion was sports. Over and over, he claimed to know nothing about sports and use that to set the students up.

You can't forward an honest discussion by being dishonest.

 

[nakedfrog]

If people want to think that women and men truly are on an equivalent footing after hormone therapy etc. then gender-specific sports should be removed, and everyone, female, male, trans etc. can all compete in the same events against one another. That's true equality eh?

Seriously though, when they are kids who really cares other than the parents. It's the parents driving all of this, the kids would happily play and race together if they were just left alone. It's when they get old enough to be influenced by their shitty parents that the kids themselves start believing the same nonsense.

And when they're adults... well, 98% of the time the US doesn't give two shits about women's sports The reason people care now is because it's being used as a wedge issue.

Awesome .... that way "STRAIGHT" MEN can 99% dominate ALL sports the way GAWD INTENDED!!11!!!1!

Why is straight men in quotes here, what does sexuality have to do with anything?

It's not about "feels" or opinion.... trans-people are 100% PEOPLE and are entitled to having their rights protected, however (no matter how anyone FEELS about it sorry) they are NOT biologically any sex other then the one they were born with and this fact is not compatible with fair competition for actual females.

We DO need to find a way to protect the rights of our trans-athletes BUT not by taking a dump on the rights of elite female athletes to have their achievements recognized.

"Biological sex" is an essentially meaningless term. The context matters, as in, what aspect of biology is relevant to a given discussion. It's also transphobic to say "actual females".
We have "handicaps" in golf, why not other sports?

 

[Captante]

Why is straight men in quotes here, what does sexuality have to do with anything?

So the giant red /s WAS actually insufficient?

"Biological sex" is an essentially meaningless term. The context matters, as in, what aspect of biology is relevant to a given discussion. It's also transphobic to say "actual females".

Seriously THAT was what you keyed in on?

Semantics/grammer DO matter to a certain extent but provided the meaning of the overall sentence/paragraph is still reasonably clear it becomes nit-picking pretty quickly.


EDIT: Sorry but "biological/genetic/at-birth sex" is pretty dang significant to most people.

Science is fully capable of influencing and even changing birth-sex in early stages of development in the womb right now however once those early stages have passed it's simply not possible to turn a man into a woman or vice-versa with current medical technology.

And finally what are you proposing? Throwing weights or time-penalties on all trans-woman athletes? And then what? The weights/penalties go on all the <insert politically correct term of choice> male athletes in events with trans-men?

 

[nOOky]

So the giant red /s WAS actually insufficient?


Seriously THAT was what you keyed in on?

Semantics DO matter to a certain point but provided the meaning of the overall sentence/paragraph is still reasonably clear it becomes nit-picking.

I like to think that my sarcasm is so distinct, that I don't need the /s. But then I read replies that obviously missed the sarcasm, and I shrug. I'm not sure how your /s could be missed though lol

 

[Captante]

Maybe the thing to do is give EVERYONE (athlete or not!) a big giant gold-plated "participation-trophy" just for being alive in any capacity and call it good?




BTW: (/S) *(I tried red ... maybe yellow will work better!)

 

[Zorba]

And when they're adults... well, 98% of the time the US doesn't give two shits about women's sports The reason people care now is because it's being used as a wedge issue.

Why is straight men in quotes here, what does sexuality have to do with anything?

"Biological sex" is an essentially meaningless term. The context matters, as in, what aspect of biology is relevant to a given discussion. It's also transphobic to say "actual females".
We have "handicaps" in golf, why not other sports?

Link up that no one in the US cares about woman's sports? I'd think title 9 shows otherwise. Women's Pro sports are way behind. But that doesn't mean 98% don't care about women's sports at all.

Your better arguments are that it hasn't shown to be an unfair advantage, not "who gives a shit about girls/women anyways."

Also hard to argue "who cares about women's sports" at the same time you're arguing "transwomen being allowed to play sports is so important that we must fight attempts to block it."

 

[Captante]

Your better arguments are that it hasn't shown to be an unfair advantage, not "who gives a shit about girls/women anyways."

I don't think that was the point NF intended to make at all however the ONLY point here should be about fair competition for *female athletes. (again over half the worlds population is *female)

*(female by birth)

 

[nakedfrog]

Link up that no one in the US cares about woman's sports? I'd think title 9 shows otherwise. Women's Pro sports are way behind. But that doesn't mean 98% don't care about women's sports at all.

Okay, I guess I needed to specify I meant "pro sports", the amount people engage with men's pro sports versus women's pro sports is a pretty significant gulf so far as I'm aware.

Your better arguments are that it hasn't shown to be an unfair advantage, not "who gives a shit about girls/women anyways."

That's not what I was attempting to convey, more referencing WNBA market share versus NBA (although apparently women's soccer is more popular than men's now, so that's neat) and that kind of thing.

Also hard to argue "who cares about women's sports" at the same time you're arguing "transwomen being allowed to play sports is so important that we must fight attempts to block it."

Again, not my actual point, I care equally about women's sports as I do about men's (which is to say, not much at all). But I'm of the impression that's generally not the case in avid sports fans, maybe that's a false impression?