Should mentally disabled people be kept alive?

[Isla]

Agreed, I don't think it is a good idea for most mentally handicapped people to reproduce simply because they have a harder time providing for thier offspring.

However, depending on the nature of the disability (especially if it is from a birth injury), they do not automatically produce disabled offspring.

Well, gotta go! Happy debating!

 

[hpkeeper]

it's still my responsibility to take care of the kid isla if I had them, I wouldn't have any less responisibility taking care of a mentally handicapped kid than a normal kid... they both have they same amount of financial need... just that one can perform everyday functions (Depending). So why would I expect financial compensation just because my kid was mentally disabled?

 

[Isla]

<< ever hear of those underwater births? they are deprived from air untill they break the surface of the water... if I did it that way I Wouldn't have to worry about the baby being deprived of air. >>



LOL! Yes... what does that have to do with the cost of tea in China?

 

[PretendHer]

I share a two very personal stories/opinions that may shed some light on this subject and, hopefully get some of you thinking deeper on this subject. And, demonstrate that, opinions are just that and not always - although we might think - thought thru on a reality level.

First, I have my ex-husband suffered 2 massive strokes and now live in a nursing home with total care. Bottome line, he can only speak and move his head. No, he dosen't have all his faculties about him and, yes, he would have probably chosen death (at the time over this state to live in); however, his, &quot;conrtibution to society&quot; is this...he has a daughter that needs him physically to be alive and to share with on several different levels. If he had died or was, for lack of choice of other words, was &quot;put to death&quot; as some may think he has nothing more to contribute and has &quot;put in his time at work, etc.&quot; his daughter would suffer, mentally. I think the rest you can all surmize.

Secondly, as a result of this experience, I now suffer from a variety of mental disorders that has made it impossible for me to work and I now am on disability myself. After worked for a major coporation in Public/Government Affairs for several years and working alongside prominent officials, I am not barely able to deal with anyone outside my family. and even at times, outside my home.

I too, will probably never work again and have &quot;done my part.&quot; However, again, I have a responsiblity to my children to help them to advance and mature in prosperous adults in the future. Would I rather be dead than endure the mental illness and torture inside at times? HELL YES!!! And I expect to, sometime, be responsible for taking my own life. But, the choice is mine and one I hold onto and believe strongly in.

While others in my family and the medical scene have tried to disuade me and my views on the matter. I consider a &quot;right to die issue&quot; same as anyone else with a terminal illness. Only difference is that mine happens to be mental illness. What's the difference I say? It's my life, decision and no one will stop me when I make that final decision.

So, what I am saying is that, NO, I don't think that is up to anyone of us personally to choose for another family, or family member, who lives and who should die. Or, how long is long enough to allow them to live.

And, I find it funny that you give rights to live to a child that may disabled, etc. to live through teenage years so as to give them a chance to experience life, etc. As, I think most of us would agree that those years may be the hardest for everyone and teenagers are the highest population group to commit(suicide)

Whether it is a baby, a teenager, or, whatever age, each situation is unique and has it's implications that reverberate throughout families, society and government. That's why it's up there with religion on the &quot;not proper to discuss&quot; list to some.

My opinion? I have a personal one for myself and the life that surrounds me and my own. But, I respect any and all opinions of others that are faced with similar situations within their own lives. I learned, and in a big way, that we can never say definitely how we feel on this subject until you are actually faced with it yourself. That, my friends, is why government ALONe should not be responsible for making these type decisions for us.

 

[Isla]

Pretendher...

Sorry to hear of your struggle... I, for one, am glad that you are still hanging in there.

I did say mentally ill people could be a pain in the butt and in light of your post, I apologize and I edited out my insensitive comment. In all honesty, I have loved dearly those who have struggled with mental illnesses and some days are better than others, you know what I mean?

Anyway, good post.

 

[hpkeeper]

PretendHer, I hesitate to say this only because it's personal. I do feel for you and you ex-husband still has function to society... you said that hey can only speak and move his head... There are some very smart people in the world much like him... you ever hear of a man name Stephen Hawkins? VERY SMART guy... you can seem him on meet the press or CNN every now and then, physically disabled being in a wheel chair and in fact he can't talk, your ex- has more function than Stephen in a way he's better off. Your ex-husband has contributed to the society and I don't think it would have been right for him to choose death or to be put to death over something that can happen to anyone... no one can be exempt from a stroke... it's a natural body thing... you can't just stop it, where as a mentally Disabled person from berth will have troubles learning how to learn what your ex husband has already learned and can still use his brain to perform those functions, he still has the mental capacity to do most tasks... someone or something would have to do it for him, but a mentally disabled person wouldn't know how to do it at all. Like I said, I'm talking about mentally disabled people from BERTH not from an accident... at berth a mentally disabled person has not had the time to develop a loving relationship with anyone, we know they will be no function or no benefit to society in the future... why pay someone $30,000-$40,000 a year to teach this person to tie their shoes when they will never learn how to do it...? My nex proposition is that if we are to keep mentally disabled people alive... why don't we stick them in a warehouse or something being fed 3 times a day until their life is over? it costs less to feed someone than it does to teach someone. I mean we know they're not going to have a function to society... so why bother trying to teach them?

 

[IamDavid]

This sounds like the logic of the Nazi's in WWII... Your society is only as strong as its weakest link.. I like to think of it the other way. Society should be judged by its treatment of its least fortunate..

 

[hpkeeper]

Iamdavid then you just proved me right...



<< Your society is only as strong as its weakest link >>



So why keep mentally &quot;Disabled&quot; people alive? and you are right... society SHOULD be judged by how it treats it's weakest link, but that's not reality is it...?

 

[pamchenko]

<< Need some vetran posters to post on this thread to keep order (GF, Red Dawn) >>



what power does reddawn or GF have to moderate what I say? because they've posted more than I have, this empowers them over me? or is it because there is a social heirarchy on the msg board that allows elite members or whatever the highest status is to lead the junior members/members/seniors blindly?

 

[visgf]

This is a subject very near and dear to my heart. I have a younger sister who is mentally handicapped, but thankfully not as much as some of her friends. When we first found out about her autism, we were crushed. We were told that she would never be able to do much of anything for herself and my parents would probably have to take care of her her entire life. Being a stubborn group, we refused to take that answer. We took the time to teach her things that she needs to know, and it was a long tough road that we're still traveling down.

This year, she will graduate high school, granted it is through a special education program and not the mainstream curriculum. This program worked very hard to teach these children basic math, reading and living skills that they will need to survive. For much of her time in high school, she did not go to school for half the day because local businesses found the compassion in their hearts and taught them a trade. While it may not seem like much for some of you to work in a grocery store, restuarant, or motel, it means the world to my sister and her friends/classmates (some are down syndrome and many fall into the general catagory of mentally retarded). They even did a rotation in a local nursing home. That just brightened the days of some of the residents there. None of this would be possible if my parents and the parents of these other children were forced to do this on their own. It is through tax payers money that she is able to get the training she needs, and for that I say thank you.

 

[PretendHer]

Let me first say that, I'm not being a smartass when I say to you that, &quot;Hey, I was mentally disabled since birth myself.&quot; Won't go further with that one. But, again, I restate that it is for none of us to choose for others unless we are personally faced with that situation.

As for me...go take a look at my pic in the Gallery...do I look mental to any of you? I would be interested to hear your opinions on that one.

Do I struggle eachh day? Hell yes!! And, yes, I am a major bitch and pain the in the ass at times. But all of us are and I do feel for all of my family members.

Even my best friend and most trusted soulmate and I disagree on my views on taking my own life when it's time. Although I ultimately decide and not him, or anyone else...unless I become incapacitated...which I sometimes think I already am at times. LOL

Anyways...continue on guys/gals...I love to read this chit and am interested in this very debate on ALL levels. Makes people think. Just that most of you are unable to think THRU until you are personally in the fox hole and those rockets are being fired AT YOU!

Caio!

 

[hpkeeper]

pamchenko you missed the point to the entire thread.... the reason I picked those two is because they contribute allot to keeping threads moderated without the mods getting involved, granted, you may be the same as them, but you don't post as much as them, so how the H3ll am I supposed to know that? you never post. Feel free to throw in your .02 cents about the thread, or try to moderate itself...

 

[IamDavid]

I meant the Nazi believed your society is only as strong as its weakest link.. Thats why they exterminated others. They believed them to be inferior races, much like you believe the mentally disabled are inferior to your standards of life..

 

[hpkeeper]

Due to the number of PM's I've recieved I'm re-evaluating my decision for prayers that a mod will lock this.

 

[PretendHer]

HEY...Don't Lock this....WTF? This is good debate here.

 

[hpkeeper]

&quot; &quot;

 

[Isla]

Yeah, I thought it was a good discussion.

pamchenko... I'm not elite but I have some training in facilitating discussions. I've made more than enough posts to have been made elite by now but I haven't, so there goes the clique theory!

Anyway, there is a skill to having a meaningful conversation and debate.

Without following certain guidelines, a discussion like this can turn into just another stupid argument/free for all.

Why would it bother you to have some people unofficially moderate, especially people who are aware of what is constructive and what is not constructive (or even counterproductive) in a discussion?

 

[IamDavid]

Hopefully Gene Therapy will end this kind of debate.. All defects will be eliminated before birth..

 

[hpkeeper]

so instead of taking the money we are using to pay people to teach these mentally disabled people to tie their shoes which they'll never be able to do, we could be using that money to research Gene Therapy? why not just stick them in a warehouse and feed them 3 times a day then???

REMINDER: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MENTAL DISABLITIES FROM BIRTH.... NOT ACCIDENTS OR BODY FUNCTIONS SUCH AS STROKES

 

[hpkeeper]

Odd... pm's to keep it open because it's a good debate and then no one is debating.

 

[Yo Ma Ma]

I belive it is already not uncommon, though for some-not all, to terminate a pregnancy when certain mental or physical disabilities have been diagnosed (via amniocentesis as example), so what is the next step you would propose? Legislate death for newborns not up to your standards?

 

[Harrald]

OK, I'm going to try and keep this civil.


Being the father of a 12-year-old severely handicapped girl I think that my opinion should count for something.


My job as a parent is to give my children the &quot;Highest&quot; quality of life possible. If there is a chance that my daughter could feed herself, walk or talk then I will do whatever it takes to get her to that place. You can not give up on someone because they don't fit into the criteria accepted as normal.

I will give one example then stop.

Helen Keller. If not for one person believing in her she would have not been a &quot;productive&quot; part of society.




<< stick them in a warehouse and feed them 3 times a day then >>


And BTW I found this to be nothing but an attempt to raise this to an emotional argument not a discussion of adults.

And as always (this time more than others) this is just MHO.

 

[visgf]

There are great advances in medicine every day. Treatments and therapies arise all the time for several disorders and injuries, so terminating the life of someone who &quot;isn't a productive member of society&quot; is pretty impulsive. You never know when that treatment may come, so to assume that the person isn't valuable enough to keep alive in the hopes of an opportunity is very presumptuous.

 

[IamDavid]

This may sound cruel but when people keep others alive is it to preserve the life of the disabled or to keep yourself happy.. I know when my grandmother was in the hospital brain-dead no matter what the doctors said my aunt would not agree to pull the plug. So when the rest of the family decided to she would not talk with any of us for about a year..

 

[SuperGroove]

Iamdavid,

Sad to hear...but what's your stance?

hpkeeper,

me thinks you are too liberal for my likings. Too sheltered to know the full effects of what you say. However...I've visited(ate with them too..technically they're my relatives...distant relatives) a family of inbreds(I wasn't judging them, rather my aunts just told me that the place was too underdeveloped to know any better...as well as the males there are just too damn horny for their own good) I've often queried the same questions you do. Seeing babies drool brown liquid without ceasing(they realy weren't babies...they were 5 and 6) and the parents well...not normal(lumps protruding out of their foreheads, not to mention their inability to speak)...I might have to agree with you in that some people shouldn't be kept alive.

ooph...bad memories. you just can't imagine the smell...or the living conditions...the more and more I think about it...the more and more I agree with hpkeeper even though I know fully well what a person with disaiblities can bring to a family. In a good family, it brings the family closer...but I've seen many too embarassed to acknowledge that the child is theirs...what's worse is how bad the children treat their sibling. Me rambles rambles rambles