Should mentally disabled people be kept alive?

[Elledan]

<<Let Elledan goose-step around and drool over his uber-race of intelligent super beings, where we kill of all those who are inferior. And let hpkeeper keep hurling sh!t at the fan that I don't think even he believes - he just wants the attention as evidenced by his related &quot;Who hates me?&quot; thread attempt.>>

Okay, Optimus, you're a real killer. When I read your post I couldn't help laughing.

I wonder if ever before so much ignorance has been shown in one thread?

Let me remind you, Optimus, that I've never, not even one single time said anything about:

1) Killing people => I said: Let them take care of themselves. If they can not, they die. It's no use to be soft and weak. We made rules, but Nature's 'laws' existed a long time before we tiny little Humans set the first steps on the Earth's surface. Maybe it would indeed have been better if the Human species would have become extinct and the Neanderthal man would have 'inherited' the Earth.

2) 'intelligent super beings' => Can you point out where exactly I said that?

Conclusion:

I seriously doubt that many people who participate in this thread actually read any posts I've posted.

BTW let me tell you that I do not completely agree with hpkeeper's views.

And again: Let us hear some constructive counter-arguments instead of 'they give us love' or 'they're so sweet'. If you want love and something 'sweet', get yourself a dog.

The argument I've heard that you never know what possible genius you might destroy when you disallow mentally defective people to enter this world is based on the almost non-existing chance that a genius (or otherwise very important person) is born.
Every single day, around 400.000 children are born. How many geniuses are between those people, you think? More than 0.0001%?

Considering that less than 5% of those new-born Humans have some serious genetical defect, can you tell me how big the chance is that you'll 'accidentally' 'destroy' a genius?

 

[Xzaver]

<< Should mentally disabled people be kept alive? >>



WTH kind of question is that! :|


~X~

 

[Optimus]

<< Okay, Optimus, you're a real killer. When I read your post I couldn't help laughing. >>





<< Every time I hear how 'happy' some family is with a mentally disabled child and much it has 'enriched' their lifes I want to throw up. What can you possible learn from a 'defective' organism? >>





<< Why not grand them a swift and painless death instead of a long and painfull life filled with hardships? >>





<< Because we can and have the possibilities to keep a person alive even if it would die according to the laws of nature since it's 'defective', should we do it? I don't think we should. >>





<< Inhumane? Yes, I would wish that. Most Humans deserve to be exterminated by some alien species. >>





<< My ultimate dream is to become a total artificial being, for I see this body, this organism, which holds the intelligence that is me, only as a tool to accomplish that 'dream'. >>





<< Then after all those mentally disabled person have died (natural cause), we'll focus on preventing this kind of situations by use of biotechnology, abortion and other techniques. >>





<< 'Cleansing' the Human race from genetical diseases by prohibiting the reproduction of people with serious genetic defects is a long-term solution >>





<< I clearly said that mentally disabled people should be either avoided or regulated. >>




As I said, Elledan - there is no point in arguing with someone whose brain is so poorly wired.

This is what you are - you simply are (or wish to be) the sick, demented, ignorant fool that posted all of that.

Arguing with your ilk does no more good to this world than debating with any other truly sick mind the world has seen. The sheer fact that you present such garbage and expect normal human beings to step DOWN to wash your stink from the air betrays the rampant foolishness you possess. You truly are a rare breed - and for that humanity is grateful.

You actually believe all that garbage. There is no point in the rest of society even acknowledging you. The rest of us wasting time even debating your twisted, dark, and hate-filled mind is a futile excercise. Isla is right - your heart and soul are so far shriveled and wasted that this is the future you create for yourself. May you be the only one to ever have to live in it.




<< I wonder if ever before so much ignorance has been shown in one thread? >>



Quite possibly the one think you have said that is true - however your meaning was quite the opposite of reality.

 

[cxim]

Yo Optimus ! where do you live ? seems they shorted me... maybe it was my bad memory &amp; they just could not find that body.

<< The rest of us wasting time even debating your twisted, dark, and hate-filled mind is a futile excercise >>

I don't know who you were writing this love letter to, but it sends chills up my spine... can I have your autograph ?

Yours, in the wanton destruction of useless life.

PS: do you use the extra thick black bags ? or just double bag ?

cxim
PO Box 102
Deth Row Fl, 99666

 

[tom3]

Elledan


<< I said: Let them take care of themselves. If they can not, they die. It's no use to be soft and weak. >>



Following your &quot;logic&quot;, not one single human being would be alive. Were you not cared for when you were an infant? Throughout your childhood? No baby can take care of themselves, mentally handicaped or not.


Without addressing the sick, inhumane, selfish, unloving, and downright stupid proposal, what are you people wining about anyway? No one asked you to take care of mentally handicaped people.

 

[Athanasius]

Elledan:

Even from a extremely utilitarian, socially darwinian perspective, your logic is extremely short sighted. It is short sighted because it fails to factor in any secondary benefits that humanity might reap by caring for the &quot;mentally disabled.&quot; In other words, it doesn't factor in the change that occurs in people that care for the disabled and how such caregivers then affect the rest of humanity. You claim to be Buddhist in your basic philosophy. Buddha felt that we are one. What we do to the least, we do to the greatest.

Caring for the truly disadvantaged might be a kind of shock therapy that wakes committed caregivers up to a new level of awareness that is truly beneficial for humanity as a group. Without the presence of the disadvantaged, we would lose the secondary benefits that caring for them brings (by way of their caregivers) to the entire human race.

Your logic is shortsighted because you apparently do not factor in love to the equation. If I gather anything from your posts, it is that you view love as a mere insipid emotion of no utilitarian benefit. Such an understanding is at best immature.

Those who have actually cared for the diadvantaged know this. Love is not emotion based. Love is the conscious and consistent choice to give for the benefit of others. Love is unconquerable benevolence and altruism in action. The &quot;shock therapy&quot; of caring for someone who will never, in any utilitarian sense, be able to recompense you or any other human is exactly the type of therapy humanity needs.

Your utilitarian logic views the severely disabled as a threat. The truth is, they are an opportunity to bring the whole mass of humanity up to a higher level. Some view them as a cause of humanity's defeat. Experience in caring for them reveals that they are a source of humanity's victory. Those who have experienced this know it is true. Those who view things from a utilitarian perspective cannot know this doctrine because they aren't willing to pay the price.

&quot;It is more blessed to give than to receive.&quot;

 

[~zonker~]

If you have questions on obtaining Elite status.... read this entire thread, then Athanasius' post a few times...

well said...

There is a Law that man should love his neighbor as himself. In a few years it should be as natural to mankind as breathing or the upright gait; but if he does not learn it he must perish. ~ Alfred Adle

He that falls in love with himself will have no rivals. - Benjamin Franklin

The only abnormality is the incapacity to love - Anais Nin

 

[MrDudeMan]

this is getting kind of sick. mentally handicapped, as simply as can be stated, should be allowed to be alive. if i got out of my chair to get a drink and tripped, hit my head on the desk, and was handicapped for the rest of my like (severly), i wouldnt want to die because of the grief it would cause my family. if one of my 4 sisters died tomorrow, it would be terrible and i would never get over it, but if they became mentally handicapped, at LEAST i would get to see them again! so speaking as a family member, it just plain wouldnt be fair.

on the other hand, people that are born with those handicaps! DONT KILL THEM EITHER! what is this about CLEANSING?

THAT IS SICK!!

my aunt is mentally handicapped, and she has got to be one of my favorite people in the world. she may be a simple minded person, but it wouldnt be possible for ANYONE in this forum to love something more than she loves me, or the rest of my family for that matter. now wouldnt that make you feel terrible to exile her from society just because she is &quot;simple?&quot;

think about that for a moment...

next:
hear me out before you get mad at me
who gives a crap if you contribute to society? there is healthy people still living and providing for those that are less fortunate. its more or less a balance of power. now that may sound terrible, but i didnt know how else to put it. what i mean by that is...say a poor person has a stroke, he has no family, no friends, and no where to go. where does he go and who pays for him? if he lives through it and suffers some kind of severe handicap...he will be put in a nursing home or something to that degree. NOW does he have to die? NO!!! did he do anything wrong? NO! like others have said, its part of nature to have a stroke, so he shouldnt be penalized for that! granted, he didnt have an exceptional life before that, but maybe he was trying to improve..one would never know! i dont know if this was a waste of my time trying to turn some of your thought around about this CLEANSING stuff ive seen. that just makes me sick at heart to hear that.

maybe everyone misunderstood all my other posts and now i wont keep getting bad ratings..however that wasnt my goal to get better ratings. i just want hbkeeper to think about my post for a few minutes

 

[xaigi]

hpkeeper:

Based on your poor spelling and grammatical skills, as well as your apparently ineffecient cognition, we have determined that you have no value to society. It is ineffecient for society to continue subsidizing your health, education and existence. Your family cannot afford to pay for you and your existence costs millions of taxpayers nearly $0.00005 every year. Orders have been sent for you to be terminated, effective immediately.

 

[hpkeeper]

Xaigi takes the cake for a classic example of a flame

Yeah... I can see that because of my poor spelling and grammatical skills that I would be of no use to society, I might as well be sitting in a chair drooling on myself having someone feed me for the rest of my sad life. Yeap... I'm going to be a useless blob the rest of my life because I can't spell as well as Sorry that my opinion isn't yours, I'm sorry I disagree with it, why do you need to take shots at me because of my opinion? I let you have yours without attacking you personally. I'm sorry Xaigi but your two cents isn't worth two cents to me esspecially considering you decide to throw it in when everyone else has done all the talking for you.

---- end of my gurping ----
---- Back to the conversation-----


Koni yes it is different... are you saying that when a baby comes out of the woumb that it knows everyone? it knows everyone that they would normally encounter in a lifetime? I meet someone new everyday, I develop relationships with them, some are only relationships for the time I speak with them, some are life-long. But if you took me right from the woumb I wouldn't have the ability to experience this, that way it eliminates anything having to do with relationships that way no one can be attached to this baby with an acception of the mother.
It is also the human way and for many other species that the mother is to take care of it's youth until it reaches a mature age as to where the youth can take care of itself, if the youth cannot advance to this stage it doesn't advance at all. If it weren't for the government we'd have a genetic cleansing going on.



<< Do you realize how incredibly self centered and arrogant that is? >>



Yeap, I do, I do realize this, because my money isn't just my money, it's my labor. I hate taxes just as much as you do, however I do feel that there are taxes that apply to me. Why should I pay a tax that doesn't benefit me in one way or another? I didn't work all week to have my money taken away from me to see that I'm not going to see any of the effects of it on my life. Plow my roads, defend my country and the retired people have put in their time so give them money too, otherwise... leave me alone.

 

[Shalmanese]

Ok, Im p!ssed off now ince the forum died while I was writing a big long reply and I lost all of it:|:|:|

First of all, there is a big difference between a mentally disabled person and a vegtable, A mentally disabled person is someone who has a major defect but is otherwise intelligent, a vegtable is missing basically all of his &quot;higher&quot; brain functions and does not respond to any stimuli.

If I asked you: Is all life precious what would you say
If you answered yes, of course it is, I would ask you are you a vegetarian? If you said no, I only meant human life, I would then ask you what is the fundamental difference between us and an animal?

Also, I think that giving the parents the decision is a bad idea, IMHO, many parents are not compassionate,responsible or intelligent enough to make that kind of decision, Especially considering the number of teen and &quot;accidental&quot; pregnancies these days.

I have a lot more things to say but I can be bothered... bloody server

 

[xaigi]

>> Xaigi takes the cake for a classic example of a flame

No, dummy! You dont know what a flame is. Why dont you put down the nudie pictures of the borg females, pull your hand off your crotch and listen.

What I said in my previous post is this: What goes around comes around, the chickens always come home to roost; once you create a social acceptance of judging and killing people -- regardless of the excuse -- you will find yourself judged and killed by your own social system.

Got it, idiot?

 

[tom3]

Take the people in this thread as a sample population of the entire U.S, a democratic country. Very few of you guys are for the killing of mentally disabled babies, because you have deemed them unbeneficial to the society. The rest of us, the vast majority of the population, have deemed you selfish, arrogant, ignorant, and dangerous. We would have you eliminated rather than the mentally disabled babies.

Use your &quot;logic&quot; guys, if some sort of clensing were to take place, you will be exterminated for your thoughts. Majority rules.

 

[MustangSVT]

Whatever the person might be or whatever that person's shape or mind state might be, if you kill off certain types of ppl with certain features, then its TOTALLY WRONG.

If you dont think that's wrong then you should think that natzies killing all the jews were all legit and correct? they used same reasoning. saying how they are not usefull for Their society and how they ruin their society.

So, mass killing by certain feature or type is not correct.

 

[Daedalus]

well at least the majority of people here seem to have their heads on straight on this one.

 

[iceliquid]

I must say hpkeeper was quite brave posting such a top which allowed for this reflection.

Many of great inventions have happened on accident or have used different technology for different purposes. A prime example is this vehicle in which we are communicating from. Isn't the origin of the internet a military project that finally opened to civilians? And the same goes for cell phone. New challeges lead to new solutions and using the same newly developed technology, one can come up with solutions to old problems. I think &quot;IT&quot; is based on the idea of some sort of wheel chair.





<< . I know it's inhumane to kill them just because they are like that, but what is their function in society other than to provide a job for a caretaker of them? >>




Could you not say something similiar for non-white ethnicities in the early 1800's? &quot;I mean, they're aren't that important, they only work the fields.&quot; Aren't they only providing just providing $$ to their masters?




<< My point in asking this question is that people complain about people who are put in jail that we have pay tax money for... but doesn't our tax money go to these people who are of no function to society? at least a guy in jail can be rehabilitated and thrown back into society where he can be a benefit to the economy. >>



Sadly it's true that most of those who have done time and are release will commit another crime. The national rehabilitation rate is significantly smaller than most believe. That's why prisons are a growing business here in the US and now owned by major corporate companies as well as government institutions. It's one of the fastest growing steady industies, hence why more prisons are built than schools.




<< if they're a teenager... let them live, but if you know at birth that your baby is going to have a mental disability that will cripple them so bad that they can't benefit others within the society is it right to keep them alive at that point...? >>



But these statements indicate an arbitrary view on at which time a person who is known to have a disability should be terminated. Who is to say a person in their teens should live and one who is just born should die? I understand that one might argue that the former has &quot;lived&quot; more because of sure age, but that doesn't make it less expendable.

I suspect less funding is given to disability programs that funding for prisons. And that's not the beginning. There's cost assocated with charging offenders, trialing, housing, and in some sad cases, executing them.

I think this truely shows the open mindedness of hpkeeper because he looking for other perspectives. I'd rather him post something like this and ask others on their views and perspective rather then believe that people with disability shouldn't be kept alive (note: My intention here is not to say hpkeeper believes disabled people shouldn't be kept alive).

Thanks for bring up such a interesting topic... sure made me think

 

[Pretender]

I was reluctant to touch this thread with a 10 foot pole, but after the controversy and the way that certain posters got their asses handed to them by elites who didn't agree, I felt a little outraged.

I don't think the issue here is going out and slaughtering the &quot;retards&quot; because they can't perform functions that we can. I find the needless killing of any human being beyond our rights and responsibilities as humans, and disgusting to boot. I am pro-death penalty for the real murderers out there, and try to base my opinions on logic rather than some belief that magically appeared in my head, and you can probably guess I'm athiest.


That being said, I don't think the issue is us as a race wanting to murder those who have mental disabilities/disorders. As a race, it serves no purpose and is a heartless thing to do. However, the issue is whether we should support them, shield them from life in order to ensure that they survive another few days, months, years, protect them society, keep them housed where they will be safe. There is no solid logic whatsoever in making an overly intensified effort in resources and time to preserve people with mental disabilities. Why? Our society is based on a set of rules and premises - two of the main ones being that all members will be productive, and no member shall kill or harm another. These two conflict here - we don't want to kill (or be responsible for the death of) a mentally disabled, but they do not contribute to society, and that's why this topic is one where most, if not all people, are highly polarized on this issue.

I myself am not completely decided on this, and this post is mostly (strange as it may seem), to summarize the cause of the hostility here, and hopefully turn it into a somewhat productive debate.

To close up here, since I've probably achieved nothing but earn a few extra enemies, I'll simply state that in situations like this I believe in the laws of nature as a &quot;tie-breaker&quot;, considering as how all other animals, plants, and living organisms follow it, it's probably of some importance, despite us being so-called &quot;civilized&quot; (just a euphemism for superior to all the species below us, if you think about it long enough). In this case, nature shows that the weaker tend to get removed from the herd (not by the herd itself, but by other races) quickly, unfortunate as it may seem. The zebras don't hold a trial to convict the lion who killed one of the mentally disabled zebras, they have not the chance to debate the legality or &quot;fairness&quot; of the killing, and they didn't have the time nor ability (nor probably the want) to save the mentall disabled zebra, but time and time again he gets slaughtered. By this same logic you could argue that anyone with a leg disibility or obesity should be removed from welfare or parental support, but in our society they are productive (or have the potential to be), and don't need round-the-clock watching by a nurse or relatives to remain alive.


All that being said, if one day I had a child with a severe mental disability, or a close relative or friend of mine did, I would probably support or encourage the attempt to keep him alive. Emotions tend to get the best of us and I would be a hypocrite to claim that I wouldn't feel differently.


Sorry to those I may anger with this thread.


-Pretender

 

[hpkeeper]

A sincere thank you to those of you who are concerned with those of us who have gotten pelted because we didn't go along with the majority, so thank you Iceliquid and pretender for putting the water on the fire and putting your reputation on this forum on the line. I really appreciate it.

 

[PretendHer]

ON the lighter side. One last question before we abandon this thread...

How would you rate my grammar punctuation on my postings throughout this thread?

I know I may have made some spelling mistakes but, I type fast and sometimes the computer doesn't keep up with me.

 

[hpkeeper]

great, because I did the same thing, Although it was held against me of course because I was the opposition being the fact that I must be mentally disabled because I'm not a perfect speller and my grammer sucks. I'm glad you where a part of the debate you where key to the debate, I'm glad that you where a part of it, even though you weren't on my side. Thank you.

 

[vi edit]

For those who truley have interest in this topic, I suggest you pick up a book called &quot;Philosophy&quot; by Thomas D. Davis. It's a short paperback book containing several fictional stories laying out philosophical principals.

In the book is a sort story called &quot;Those Who Help Themselves&quot;. I suggest you read it.

 

[Fingers]

I don't think there is a &quot;right&quot; answer for this question. it all depends on a family's personal beliefs and the situation.