Should mentally disabled people be kept alive?

[Shalmanese]

no they dont, farm dogs and the like, yes

most of the rest are serving some theuraputic need, if they arent, we give them away or put them down.

With humans there are legislations which prevent such things, how would you feel if you were the mother of a vegtable and you life was a living hell becuase he/she was constantly making demands and never giving you time to be you. How would you feel about laws locking you into that kind of position for 10+years with no reprive, yes a lot of joy can be obtained from disabled people but a lot of sorrow too

 

[Tiger]

hpkeeper,

My questions are just as rhetorical as yours.



<< I'm a student at the time being hoping to extend my contribution to society further. >>



What contribution have you made to society up to this time?

Some would argue that you've made none, yet.
Some would argue just the opposite, that you've been a drain on the economy and society as whole.
My definition of &quot;contributing to society&quot; includes the possibilty that everyone contributes in some small way, whether they be genious's, corporate CEO's, factory workers like myself, or mentally ill.

What guarantee do we as a society have that you would ever &quot;contribute&quot;?
Why should society as a whole take the chance?
Up till now all you've done is consume oxygen.
It seems to me your defintion of contributing to society demands just such a guarantee, mine doesn't. I, and I'll bet 99.5% of the rest of humanity, are willing to give you a chance no matter how long it takes or what your final &quot;contributuion&quot; is.

On this board I'm considered conservative, almost a right wing extremist.
I believe that everyone who is able should work, but I'm not willing to commit fratricide if someone doesn't meet some narrow definition of contributing to society. Everyone should be given the chance to be all they can be. Those that are able should have higher expectations placed on them than those that aren't. As UG said somewhere below, societies aren't usually judged by how they treat the fortunate, but by how they treat the less fortunate (probably a paraphrase, sorry Gary).

You are young. Hopefully you and others like you will find these things to be true. The sooner the better because real life is one huge slap in the face once you get out here.

 

[hpkeeper]

Koni -
I experience pure love all the time from my family beagle... I could come home from work one day pissed as all hell and throw stuff through a window and maybe even totally annihalate the house... but when I decide I'm done the beagle will still be thrilled to see me... I love my dog back as well, if anything happened to him I'd be crushed. So what are you saying? that a dog has the same family value that a mentally disabled person does? what makes you believe that I have not had a mentally disabled person in my life? just because I say that I don't see the value in spending my money on them? give me a break. Just because I didn't come out and say that I've never had a mentally disabled person in my life doesn't mean that I never have. If you must know, one of my good friends has a learning disablilty, not a severe case, but one none the less. He can function for himself and he's had numerous jobs and his parents have supported him, no government worker has ever been paid (with my tax money) to take care of him. BTW: he can also control his bodily functions. I've also had many experiences with mentally disabled people, I've helped out at nursing homes and they have mentally disabled people there (I feel bad for the old folks). So you can stop &quot;ASSuming&quot; as well.
Tiger-
I've made a contribution to society.... as a part time job I make pizza's... Along with that job comes taxes... social security for example contributes to retired people and those who need survivor benefits that is my contribution to society, any volunteer work is a contribution to society, I was a boyscout, had to help out with eagle projects, 9 times out of 10 those projects benefited the surrounding community, there is another contribution to society... it's not the greatest contribution to society but a contribution none the less. When I'm not at work I'm at school learning calculus and physics, now if you can say that someday a person with a severe mental disablity that is still having troubles tying their shoes and learning to feed themselves is going to make a contribution to society then e-mail me the time and place as to where it's going to happen and I want to see it.



<< Some would argue that you've made none, yet.
Some would argue just the opposite, that you've been a drain on the economy and society as whole. >>



I don't see how that is opposite... but seeing that you bring this up... We already know that some of the the mentally disabled have not made no contribution to society, yet and... We know that they are a drain on the economy as a whole. I've made my contribution and will continue to unless I happen to be in an accident where i can no longer take care of myself, in which case I would no longer pertain to this thread.

Yeah supposing I didn't have a job... I wouldn't have contributed to society as of yet, but the question I have for you is that what are the chances that in the future I'm going to contribute to society opposed to the chances that a severely mentally disabled person will contribute to society? I'd like to see the ratios on that for reference.

---what i have to say other than responding-----
At the restaurant I work at we have to make compensations for the mentally disabled, not in way of wheel chair accessible but that they're food has to be prepaired differently, all food we make for them has to be blended into a milkshake substance which I find discusting, what I find even more discusting is watching them eat it... gags me almost every time. So... now I no longer think that they're expendable(happy?), don't force me to deal with your loved ones, if you want them in your life, that's fine, but don't bring them into mine because even though I think it's fine for you to have them, I don't think it's an intelligent way to spend tax money.

 

[KotchY]

I fully concur with your reply hpkeeper

 

[hpkeeper]

thank you, finally another in support of something I say! woo!

 

[PretendHer]

Taking this personal? Damn right I am. Missing the point? No way in hell.

I could, in the future, very possibly go off my the tracks and be put in an intsitution for care. And, I contemplate both of these daily. Mental disability is just that...a problem that MANY people struggle with on a daily basis.

Some of you say that my opinion doesn't count because I have &quot;acceptable&quot; by your standards, behavior. I can control my bodily functions. I am, &quot;intelligent.&quot; And, I appear to be non-offensive in your minds. SCREW THAT!! You have no idea what a person experiences with a mental illness unless you have one yourself.

I see no real contribution that I provide to society and I take from the &quot;system&quot; by drawing SS Disability payments. SO where do you all get off that I don't apply to this very question? Because, they way I see it, your comments both good and evil DO apply to myself.

I have really become enraged by the comments I have seen here and count my blessings that I am involved with a man that doesn't share them. Unlike some of you, I have found and experience everyday, the form of love that 99.9% of you will only hope to find in your lifetimes. And, I feel pitty on those of you that only find comfort and love in the forms of your animals, friends, and yourselves. For you will, most likely, never be able to accept joy, happiness and pure love in any form because of your inane views on emotional comfort, compassion and passion for life.

Not a day goes by that I don't contemplate suicide and taking my own life. And, yet, here I sit and see how some of you would love to take it for me...should I be put in the category that talk about. Well, hey folks, I may already be there. And, if not, I may well be on my way in the future.

This post has become stale to me and so are your comments.

 

[konichiwa]

<< what makes you believe that I have not had a mentally disabled person in my life? >>

I was led to think this because you're discussing KILLING THEM

<< One of my good friends has a learning disablilty, not a severe case, but one none the less. He can function for himself and he's had numerous jobs and his parents have supported him, no government worker has ever been paid (with my tax money) to take care of him. >>

So now you're comparing someone with a learning disability to someone with severe mental disability? Do you realize how absurd your arguments are becoming?

<< BTW: he can also control his bodily functions. >>

Is this the new standard for being a person of worth? I didn't recieve the neo-nazi handguide update this week, you'll have to let me borrow your copy.

 

[hpkeeper]

koni, this person has had time to develop that I've known for such a long time, I've said it before and I'm going to say it again now... I'm not talking about someone whose had time to develop a relationship, I'm talking about someone right out of the birth canal, we know that they won't be able to ever take care of themselves... so from the second they are out of the mother, that's when we start making decisions wether or not the child will be able to survive without someone to take care of them for the rest of their lives. NOT YEARS INTO THEIR LIFE, where they've had time to develop relationships. Yeah, as GF pointed out, the mother may gain a relationship with the baby while it's still in the woumb. But what's better? the country paying for someone that they don't know to take care of someone they don't know or to just fork over the money because it's the &quot;Right thing to do&quot; why is it the right thing to do? Do you think that if their was a defective baby back in the stone age, that it was exclusively taken care of by it's family and the communtity? Yes, I realize that this is the 00's but why has our responsiblities changed with time? you took care of your family and your possessions why has it become mine or anyone elses responsibility to take care of anyone outside of that?

 

[konichiwa]

<< so from the second they are out of the mother, that's when we start making decisions wether or not the child will be able to survive without someone to take care of them for the rest of their lives. >>

You keep saying this, and it doesn't change anything. Why is killing a baby fresh out of the womb any different than killing someone who's 10 years old? It's not. A person is a person. You're trying to play God, and you don't have the right or capabilities to do that. And if you think you do, then you've got something wrong with you.

<< what's better? the country paying for someone that they don't know to take care of someone they don't know or to just fork over the money because it's the &quot;Right thing to do&quot; why is it the right thing to do? >>

It's the right thing to do because as humans we are compassionate beings. Obviously some people in this thread would rather think of themselves as a &quot;higher life form&quot; and have no compassion, and think that a world with no emotions is better than the world we have now. I would disagree with that ... it's the &quot;right thing to do&quot; because killing someone is the &quot;wrong thing to do.&quot; Do you realize that you're equating the importance of a human life with the importance of your taxes? Do you realize how incredibly self centered and arrogant that is?

<< why has it become mine or anyone elses responsibility to take care of anyone outside of that? >>

See above.

 

[BowDown]

I belive that what I posted before deserves to be posted again.


This is an argument with no logical basis... None of us here is &quot;mentally disabled&quot; (in the context that were are discussing), and we don't know what it's like to be mentally disabled. I had once pondered this question when visiting the Phych Center that my dad works for... &quot;Why are these people here taking up our valuble tax money?&quot; Well there is no answer...

No one chooses to be born black, white, smart, dumb, healthy, sick, etc... Hell no one chosses to be living here period... People deserve to have what they want to have and work for. But that phrase right there only applies to the poeple that are able to make that choice. So there lies the conflict of this responce, &quot;do they really have a choice?&quot; No... therefore the imediate-family makes the choice for them... Not your neighbor, cousin, grandfather, buddy. It's not up to society to answer this question. If people choose to bring a handicap person up in this world that's their choice. Don't make it the tax payers burden...

 

[mpg]

shouldn't this be a poll?

 

[Shalmanese]

I will again go out on the limb and make some very broad and sweeping gneralisations. keep in mind that I have absolutly no idea what I am talking about and the best these are are informed guesses, also keep in mind that just becuase you or your friend's fried does not fit this generalization, it is false, there will always be exceptions.

Okay, a lot of people seem to be throwing up personal arguments as the basis of this thread, To me, most of the poeple on this forum are relativly well off and seem to lead a far more comfortable life that the avereage citezen, Sure many of you go out for community service but Im betting none of you actually live in a slum. I am also making a sweeping generalisation that people who are finacially well off can cope better with the sudden disability of a loved one as they do not have to cope as much with the finacial burden on top of the emotional one. All this concldes in me saying that most of the personal stories we have had here are from people who actively go out to help the disadvantaged and are good at it (Isla) or people who can cope resonably well with this kind of strain.

What Im driving at is that we are not seeing the whole other side of the argument where a mother who is already struggling to survive has to take care of a vegtable on top of her strenuos life.

just to reiterate:

<< keep in mind that I have absolutly no idea what I am talking about and the best these are are informed guesses >>

 

[Tiger]

Well hpkeeper,

I see there's no reasoning with an arrogant little punk like you. So be it.
Go be happy in your elitist little theoretical world.
If there is any justice in this world, and I'm sure there is, you'll have to eat every single one of your bigotted words.

When my nephew is old enough I'll show him your posts as an example of what true selfishness can do. There is more to life than money. Most people learn this at a relatively early age. Some never do, you will be among them.

BTW, you got any college loans? Who do you think is paying the interest on those loans while your off thinking up this bigotted crap? It sure as hell isn't you.

 

[sandorski]

Alrighty, let's first dismiss some crap touted as fact: This thread is not about science, it is not about genetics, it is about economics and personal discomfort(something I personally know about)! What science supports this crap? Where's the proof that the mentally disabled produce mentally disabled offspring?

Hell, did I miss something? Is there even a baby boom amongst the mentally disabled that, if it were true, is threatening the long-term viability of the human race?

As for those calling for us to go easy on these morons, fvck that! These guys deserve the smack upside the head of reality, just as Hitler should have received. I never want to meat these guys in RL, simply because I don't know how I'd react to such sh1t.

hpkeeper: You may not think you're a Nazi, but so far the only thing you haven't done is pledge allegiance to Hitler. I'm sure those hundreds of thousands of US military and other Allied personnel are pleased that you would nullify their sacrifice by promoting such barbarism.

 

[TravisBickle]

I think a poll is better for this thread. if people felt they were more anonymous you might get a truer picture of what people really think.
I really could not be fagged to read this very long thread at all. what i would say is be careful because a lack of regard for life in principle leads one down a dangerous road, Hitler led a people but didn't actually care about them and turned on his own.

 

[Prodigy^]

if they're enjoying life, they should be kept alive. try thinking as the world as a whole....so many poor people, and people who might never do anything for their country, many other people, etc. yet, they have a fun life.....we're all here for fun, imo.

if they want to end their own life, kill them.

 

[TravisBickle]

for a thread with such a lot of posts, I see remarkably few people participating! I think it may be because they see their opinions will arise spite. i've always known anandtech to have lots of spiteful members.
my worry with all of this is the abstract concept of humanity which says all human beings have a right to live in whatever cirumstances (yet America regularly executes people I notice). in practice this suggests that parents are forced to look after their vegetables for life. I believe this is obscene. to condemn someone to this kind of life sentence is truly dreadful. I think that logically, either the choice of euthanasia should only be with the parents on the basis of &quot;impoverished humanity&quot; or whatever you want to call it, (backed with medical analysis) or if society or the constitution believes that life in whatever circumstances must be maintained, then that government responsible should be responsible for all the care that vegetable needs. it is not right to condemn parents to that life sentence for your own morals. if you really believe in that stuff, society, YOU take care of these unfortunates. in the end taxes pay for it all, so everybody pays, but of course we cannot choose what we wish our taxes to go toward. so what I am saying is that the parents create life, and their wishes are the most important. I want people to put their money where their mouth is. if society say, oh euthanasia is abominable, then all society must put their money in the kitty so that we can put vegetables in a home (or contribute to parental care if that's what they want)

 

[ZeroCool420]

umm, i haven't read any of the arguements, but I think they should be kept alive.

 

[ppaik]

KILL THEM ALL!!! Survival of the fittest, let them live on their own and if they can....so let them. Before you guys start sending me hatemail......I'm kidding.

hpkeeper.....I question if you are not mentally ill for asking such a question. You're mind has to be somewhat warped to even ask a question like that. KILL THEM ALL probably ran through your head a couple of times for even posting such a dumb question. We are not animals.

I have no objections to Kivorkian(sp) but I think you have to make the choice and not have someone do it for you.

 

[Prodigy^]

ppaik

hpkeeper specifically stated that he didn't mean to state that he wanted them all dead, and it's incredible lame when people take offense and start acusing people of having certain opinions, based on questions they're asked or things they're said.

 

[Aceman]

So hpkeeper, we just kill em off at birth if they have a mental disability. Hmmmmm, great idea!!!!

Let's see.... My sister-in-law has cerebal palsy. It was known at birth. The doctors gave little hope of a productive life. Little hope of ever being anything more than a burden on her parents. Will have trouble being educated. Wow! 19years later, she graduated from high school with very little &quot;special education&quot; She was given NO BREAKS in her education. Because of fools like you that give these people no credit or hope, my wife's mother accepted the fact she was disabled and coddled and sheltered her. My siser-in-law could have worked as a cashier or any other job that would have greatly contributed to society. She now volunteers her time helping at a nursing home for the elderly. She serves a purpose probably greater than you will ever serve! She gives love and care to the elderly for NO MONEY!
Hmmmm, now let's talk about the cashier at the Best Buy I moonlight at. Same disability...cerabal palsy. He is a cashier at the store and one of the best the store has. The man can sell service plans and accessories like no other cashier.
Hmmmm, let's look at my youngest son. At birth, the placenta broke and &quot;choked&quot; him coming out of the birth canal. He was on oxygen for two days. Worries abounded that there might be brain damage. Wow should we just end his life right there? Or should we see in a few years if there was permanent brain damage? We waited. He has turned out fine. (Our thanks to a doctor that took the chance that he would survive to carry on a normal life!)

You sir, are a mental midget! You are part of the reason that society has not progressed faster in assisting these people to perform in mainstream society. Mental disabled people do not want to function in mainstream society not because of their challenges mentally, but because of their challenges brought on by mental midgets like yourself!

 

[Total Refected Power]

hpkeeper:

This was actively done in Ancient Greece by the SPARTANS. Deformed/defective children either at birth or in the later years were left on a hilltop to STARVE.

Thankfully, we evolved away from such abuse.

There but before the grace of God go I.

 

[shifrbv]

I'm a little bit torn on this issue.

My only experience with physically/mentally handicapped people was when I worked at a summer camp for handicapped adults and children. As a camp counselor, I was exposed for the first time in my life to people who had any number of diseases such as spastic cerebral palsey, Down's syndrome, spina bifida, muscular dystrophy, and many others, some of which I can't remember the names of right now. Many were limited in their abilities (in wheelchairs, couldn't speak very well), but were still able to communicate in some manner. With patience, I found many of the campers to actually be better company than some of the so-called &quot;normal&quot; camp counselors that I was working with. These campers were so anxious to attend the camp, they waited all year to come. For many it was the first time they could actually be away from home and have the opportunity to ride horses, canoe, go on a nature trail, sit around a campfire, sing songs, make crafts, etc. Simple things which &quot;normal&quot; people take for granted. And I, personally, found the experience to be very rewarding even though it was the hardest job I've ever had.

We did have a couple of campers which I would call &quot;vegetables&quot;. These were the ones who had no spark in their eye, no responsiveness. One was so bad she had to be on a gurney the entire time and just gazed up at the ceiling or sky during activites. Her food had to be puree'd and force fed and she had regular enemas because she couldn't go to the bathroom. She was like this from birth. Her parents were wonderful people and wanted her to have the camp experience. Maybe they are better people than I, but if it had been my decision, I'm not sure I would have been able to deal with someone like this who really did need 24 hour supervision. Because of all the campers, she required the most effort and constant care.

 

[Optimus]

I can't believe everyone is still wasting thier time on these pathetic little facist @ssholes. Just ignore them - they are just a couple ignorant little monkeys impotently wailing for attention.

Let Elledan goose-step around and drool over his uber-race of intelligent super beings, where we kill of all those who are inferior. And let hpkeeper keep hurling sh!t at the fan that I don't think even he believes - he just wants the attention as evidenced by his related &quot;Who hates me?&quot; thread attempt.

Heck, even let the little &quot;me too&quot; cowards like KotchY and Kameleon hide behind them shouting &quot;yeah!&quot; because they don't even have a pair big enough to try to post something substantial.

Ignore the ignorant little idiots - they aren't even worth your time. There is no logical arguing with morons, they will just drag you down to thier level and beat you with experience.

Someday the cup they measure with will be measured back to them. That is enough.

 

[PretendHer]

Ahh...I see the F*@$#D-Up Fairy has visited again.

Just a couple of quick comments on those who choose the far left here.

Any connection between your realities and mine is purely coincidental. And, I think we are all refreshed and challenged, to say the least, by your unique points of view.

Alot of you remind me of myself...when I was young and stupid. And, the majority of you posters who shows SERIOUS signs of mental illness probably are.

It's so nice of each of you wackos to take set aside this time to humiliate yourselves in public this way. For, when you tend to frequent a forum like AnAndTech, you &quot;get to know&quot; people. And I think those of you who have chosen to make a mockery out of human existence when a person is disadvantaged, and you know who you are, will come to find out that, in the big scheme of things - and THAT is what really matters - no on will ever give a rats ass about you when you are disadvantaged yourselves.

What is this place anyways? Flypaper for freaks?