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Should AT include OC'd Cards in Reviews?
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You know. Out of stock.
How surprising is it?
I dont know about you, but Anand as a professional should have known beforehand that this situation would happen. This is a PR stunt. This is a non-existing card by all practical terms.
What this leads to is NV and AMD sending cards to review that is only sold in very limiting numbers.
The results will be, that the consumers will buy the stock clock, or far below 850, and get less for their money.
Excactly the intention of the move from NV.
Mission acomplished. Worse situation for the consumers.
The real world fact is here. Its obvious you shouldnt include a card that will not be sold in measurable numbers.
Your brought the facts here. Thank you.
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toyota
Lifer
the card was available earlier and popular cards sale out all the time after price reductions. heck they had a gtx470 go on sale today and that did not last more than a few hours. also since most of the 6850 cards sold out was that a stunt too?
anybody with with one good eye can see that the FTW card is just a factory overlclocked model at the same price range as the 6870 so whats the big deal. not to mention a regular gtx460 was also used. if someone is too ignorant to figure these things out then buying a video card is probably the least of their problems.
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Look at the facts. The 850 parts is only sold in very limited numbers. Fact. Care to argue about that?
No professional expect the 850 parts to be sold in measurable numbers. The consumers cant buy product that is only on the shelves for 4 hours each week. They buy volume products, as seen by the numbers in the steam survey.
You cant buy a non existing product. Thats the deal.
toyota
Lifer
lol what? there are several cards that sell out from time to time. I have been looking at gtx460 cards for weeks and I don't see the FTW card being out of stock any more than most other ones. heck there are several other gtx460 cards out of stock at the moment too. that is because they reduced the prices so duh.
the overclocked card costs less than the 6870 and competes with it so whats the problem? plus they included a stock gtx460 which sells for even less. and again many of the 6850 cards are out of stock too so enough with the paranoid nonsense.
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Can anyone explain this phrase or colloquialism for me please? The nearest I'm getting is "soda" or "so d'oh".
toyota
Lifer
duh just means it "should be obvious" or "what did you expect".
taltamir
Lifer
da is russian for "yes". In america, people say it while making a "stupid face" (contorted), sometimes doh-py if you are a teenaged girl who pretends to be living in a movie. It used typically used to indicated something is stupidly obvious (aka, they are "imitating" you being stupid). adding the "so" in front is just a mutation of that, means the same thing.
Generally speaking it is rude and insulting, but it can be used in a non insulting manner (typically by being self depreciating rather then criticizing whatever the other person said. But its possible to just be used very casually without considering or intending its typical meaning)
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apoppin
Lifer
There are very few EVGA GTX 460's left because of Anand's article 😛
- people liked the value and they sold out. How hard is that to understand? There will be more available. The entire 460 line is hard for Nvidia to keep in stock
Why no GTX 470? i don't have one. 🙁
i put in a request over THREE WEEKS ago for a GTX 460-1GB, a 768M version and a GTX 470. Galaxy was SOLD OUT of ALL GTX 460s .. the SAME WEEK OF THE REVIEW, they got me one (GTX 460-1GB) by 2nd day air FedEx from China; Nvidia got me the OCd EVGA card and THURSDAY (the morning the NDA was up) the 768MB version also arrived
Nvidia has NOTHING to do with my reviews - no more than AMD does.
- i used the OC version of GTX 460 because it ADDS *more* info - and i used it alongside the clearly labeled stock versions of GTX 460 and the stock and O/C'd HD 6870 and 6850
Perhaps i should have left the overclocked HD 6850 out of my review because it had a very good overclock
😛
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There are still exatly 34 evga gtx460 FTW EE cards in stock as of this post. $10 more than the non-EE version, but still comes with the $10 MIR which, in the end, still makes it cheaper than the hd6870.
Attic
Diamond Member
The sapphire and gigabyte, using clocks available on all 68xx cards, being out of stock is not equivalent to the EVGA FTW being out of stock.
I'd check again. All of the 6850's that cost less than $200 are sold out at newegg right now, while there are a lot of stock clocked 460's with extra rebates for sale at $150 along with in-stock FTW 460's for $240.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130581
It looks like the FTW switched to a new sku--
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Attic
Diamond Member
That still misses the point that the EVGA FTW is by it's design a limited and limited availability card and represents a very very small percentage of the 460GTX cards available.
If this kind of manufacture influence is condoned by bowing to it in reviews like anandtechs then where does the limited special version OC cards lead future review landscapes?
Everytime nVidia or AMD release a new card a limited production and/or cherry picked run of cards are going to be used to compare it to? I would hope not. Those limited edition cards don't have to adhere to the same market conditions as the stock cards, or more reasonable OC versions of stock cards, that are expected to be widely available and have established pricing. The inclusion of cherry picked cards to be included at the discretion of the manufactures, nVidia in the case, in the review of competitors products shows a clear inbalance and conflict of consumer interest. It is definitively the wrong course of action to take. Anand likely realizes this by this point in time.
Could nVidia subsidize and influence market pricing on a very small portion of 460 cards such as the EVGA 460 FTW to manipulate market conditions and or the percieved value of their entire 460 product lineup?
Given the EVGA 460 FTW is such a small volume part by it's nature, as compared to the stock variant of it's main competitor, I think including it, especially given it's inclusion at the suggestion of nVidia is the wrong picture to present if these review sites want to be taken seriously.
You go down this path and we are going to have a ridiculous mess everytime a new GPU is released. nVidia or AMD are now given free reign to send "ringer cards" to be included in these reviews that do not have to adhere to the same market conditions as the card they are being reviewed against. This would/will/has been done in an attempt to sabotage the competitors launch as nVidia has done in this case.
apoppin
Lifer
AMD sent me a HD 5870 PCS+ the week that i was reviewing the GTX 480 under NDA.
No to all of the above imo
()🙂
- Should i have not used my *overclocked* HD 5870 in reviews versus GTX 480?
- Was i being unfair to Nvidia by including it in my reviews?
- Was AMD being unethical by sending me an OVERCLOCKED HD 5870 while i was reviewing GTX 480 for my readers?
No to all of the above imo
()🙂
Attic
Diamond Member
I can see where this would promote manufactures to seed limited production "ringer" cards to review sites. Limited production cards that don't need to adhere to the same market conditions and pricing as the competitors stock version it is being reviewed against.
The EVGA FTW 460 has a 25% OC on it's Core.
Stock 460 675mhz core
Evga 460 FTW 850mhz core
The 5870pcs+ has a 3% OC on it's COre
Stock 5870 850mhz core
Powercolor 5870pcs+ 875mhz core.
I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make, but it seems clear that the EVGA FTW card represents a significant, above and beyond, difference as compared to a stock card than what the powercolor 5870pcs+ represents to its stock version.
3% OC vs 25% OC, that is astonishing to say the least. Good for the EVGA FTW, but my point still stands about the confusiion the inclusion of these cards leads to in reviews. You just compared an OC card to an OC card to justify their inclusion. Only the OC cards aren't really the same, at all.
Edit: Nice review at ABT btw, very detailed. Above and beyond what I saw at most any other review site. Also corrected the stock 460 clock from 650 to the correct 675 and corrected associated %'s.
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apoppin
Lifer
You are asking for the point.
Both AMD and Nvidia signaled the "future" .. what was coming from their respective companies
In AMD's case (and i predicted the future accurately back in April based partly on my receiving the PCS), they signaled that they weren't worried about Fermi - that they would counter with Price and with an overclocked cool and quiet HD 5870. Later on we saw the highly OC'ed 5870s
This time Nvidia is signaling us that the GTX 460 process is mature and that we can expect to see overclocked and super-overclocked GTX 460s at the same price point go up against HD 6870
And SOON we shall see the Overclocked HD 6870/6850 cards from AMD's partners. And a further response from Nvidia
-- they are both clearing their old stock
EDIT: Thank-you! i am certain that if AMD had a +30% overclocked HD 5870 back then - they would have sent it to me. Nvidia is signaling that they have an answer. Now we shall see if they are bluffing - or not. i doubt that we shall see less super-overclocked GTX 460 as the process is maturing into what Nvidia originally envisioned for them. Same thing will happen with HD 58x0 - we will see faster and faster versions of them as AMD's own process matures.
Both AMD and Nvidia signaled the "future" .. what was coming from their respective companies
In AMD's case (and i predicted the future accurately back in April based partly on my receiving the PCS), they signaled that they weren't worried about Fermi - that they would counter with Price and with an overclocked cool and quiet HD 5870. Later on we saw the highly OC'ed 5870s
This time Nvidia is signaling us that the GTX 460 process is mature and that we can expect to see overclocked and super-overclocked GTX 460s at the same price point go up against HD 6870
And SOON we shall see the Overclocked HD 6870/6850 cards from AMD's partners. And a further response from Nvidia
-- they are both clearing their old stock
EDIT: Thank-you! i am certain that if AMD had a +30% overclocked HD 5870 back then - they would have sent it to me. Nvidia is signaling that they have an answer. Now we shall see if they are bluffing - or not. i doubt that we shall see less super-overclocked GTX 460 as the process is maturing into what Nvidia originally envisioned for them. Same thing will happen with HD 58x0 - we will see faster and faster versions of them as AMD's own process matures.
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shangshang
Senior member
why do get this feeling that a lot of complainers against Anand are AMD homers???
Somehow, seeing an older OC'ed card can give their "next gen" card a beating... does not sit well with AMD homers. hehe
Somehow, seeing an older OC'ed card can give their "next gen" card a beating... does not sit well with AMD homers. hehe
Did ATI request the use of that card in the Nvidia review? Did anyone consider using the Sapphire Radeon HD5850 Toxic in the 470/480 review?
Does Nvidia send "guidelines" to the hardware review sites, telling what settings to use? Does ATI/AMD?
Why on some reviews there's no overclocking of the reference cards done and in some other there is?
Also that EVGA card is not available in most of the world, there are more countries than the USA.
apoppin
Lifer
- Neither AMD nor Nvidia requests anything of reviewers - except to be fair; i did not have to use the EVGA card at all - or i could stock clock it
- No idea about the Toxic; i never got one - i have a reference Diamond HD 5870 and a PC PCS+
- NO - neither Nvidia nor AMD sends guidelines that tell the reviewer to do anything. They simply show their own internal testing.
- Each site aims the review at their own audience.
- My focus is about performance in gaming and i love to overclock; over half of ABT's readers are in the USA. We also have very limited time to test under NDA
i had 1 week from receipt of HD 68x0 to publication to test both of them against the HD 5870, the GTX 460 EVGA, the GTX 460-1GB stock and the GTX 460-768M. Nvidia has been sold out of GTX 460s recently - before the launch it was hard to get my request filled - considering that Galaxy sent one from Hong Kong for me to have it in time; zero stock in the USA that week.
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i havent read through the 14 pages of this thread, but i think another option is missing from the poll: include OCed cards only alongside the stock cards, and from both camps.
that way you get the perspective about stock performance and you can see if the reviewed product can OC beyond the OC of its competitor.
that way you get the perspective about stock performance and you can see if the reviewed product can OC beyond the OC of its competitor.
apoppin
Lifer
A lot of options were missing from that poll including, "i think it is a great idea to include ALL relevant cards and benchmarks"
:thumbsup:
i did what you suggested in my own review - but ultimately it boils down to each individual reviewer and the amount of time and energy they have to do the review.
i wish i had 3 weeks to evaluate these cards - not just one. 😛
Madcatatlas
Golden Member
YOU my friend, didnt even read the review from the looks of it.
formulav8
Diamond Member
Stop watering it down people saying is a available card, blah, blah. The core of the problem has NOTHING to do with the card in iself.
Anandtech has always held certain principals when it comes to their reviews. One of those those principals included occasions NOT to use such a card in their reviews (That review would have been one of those occasions).
Plain and simple, they Broke one of their principals to give in to nVidia's persistance. How hard is that to understand? They clearly stated that this is NOT something they would normally do. So they compromised their ethics in order to appease nvidia.
Stop making it out to be fanboy trash. They did not stick to their ethics. How hard is that to understand?
Stop the fannyism already, its stupid. :thumbsdown:
Anandtech has always held certain principals when it comes to their reviews. One of those those principals included occasions NOT to use such a card in their reviews (That review would have been one of those occasions).
Plain and simple, they Broke one of their principals to give in to nVidia's persistance. How hard is that to understand? They clearly stated that this is NOT something they would normally do. So they compromised their ethics in order to appease nvidia.
Stop making it out to be fanboy trash. They did not stick to their ethics. How hard is that to understand?
Stop the fannyism already, its stupid. :thumbsdown:
Noticed this too...not a complete poll. So I checked the "minutia" option. To me, the information is there for those who care to read it...for those who don't? Don't think AT should start catering their reviews to those who don't actually read them, but only look at the pretty pictures. Again, the information was there and it gave me, the consumer, a more complete picture. Is it "fair"?...who cares? I got the information I wanted from a group of products at a similar price point...now I will make my decision.
apoppin
Lifer
i don't remember reading a hard and fast rule anywhere on AT's main site about not reviewing overclocked cards.
--AT's review is top notch. Their integrity is intact.
i think you are insulting this site and its readers intelligence. It is clearly labeled in the review what is overclocked and what is not and anyone with a 2 or 3 digit IQ reading the review caught on instantly.
You appear to be for censorship and would like to hide some overclocking variables from readers because they do not appeal to you. Censorship is a mark of a fanboy who lacks ethics and understanding.
- Nvidia did nothing different than what AMD does; they make a full range of products available for reviewing - it is up to the reviewer how they do their own review.
BtW, is the main site down?
--AT's review is top notch. Their integrity is intact.
i think you are insulting this site and its readers intelligence. It is clearly labeled in the review what is overclocked and what is not and anyone with a 2 or 3 digit IQ reading the review caught on instantly.
You appear to be for censorship and would like to hide some overclocking variables from readers because they do not appeal to you. Censorship is a mark of a fanboy who lacks ethics and understanding.
- Nvidia did nothing different than what AMD does; they make a full range of products available for reviewing - it is up to the reviewer how they do their own review.
BtW, is the main site down?
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