Should AT include OC'd Cards in Reviews?

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Are OCed variants of graphics boards appropriate for reviews

  • It is neither ethical nor fair to ever include such in a product review

  • It is unfair, but does not cross ethical bounds; many nv/ati skewed sites do it

  • It would be only fair with prominent caveats in the review, and clearly visible differentiations

  • It can be fair, depending on the market conditions, and the OCed variants availability

  • It can be fair, but not with a large OC such as on the evga FTW

  • It is only fair when comparing OCed variants from both camps

  • It is normally fair, but not on initial product reviews like the debut of 6800s

  • It is only fair when the OCed variant is the highest volume of the model

  • It is such a minutia, I don't understand why most even care


Results are only viewable after voting.

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
You accused me of being stupid. Rudely. Of being manipulated by Nvidia.
--i doubt you read my review.

And as far as my forum goes, i usually disagree with our mod on just about everything graphics related :p

i did say you were not particularly welcome, with an emphasis on particular. We do actively solicit our member's opinions - agree or disagree. There is probably way too much freedom there to disagree.

I never accused Anandtech nor you of anything. Don't falsely accuse me, please. I accused nVidia. As far as not wanting me at your site, fine. Be sure to add to the rules of your forum that everyone must agree with you or they aren't welcome.

Anandtech obviously has a different attitude towards their subscribers than you do. They actually solicited the opinions of those who read their reviews.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3988/the-use-of-evgas-geforce-gtx-460-ftw-in-last-nights-review
 
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AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,979
589
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^ It depends.
No it really doesn't. But like I keep saying, ultimately it's up to the readers to decide what if fair and what is not. Apparently more people think it's a bad practice than don't, going by the numbers in this poll.

Now, this statement I have a problem with:
We were honestly afraid that if we didn't include at least a representative of the factory overclocked GTX 460s that we would get accused of being too favorable to AMD.
Let's turn that around, it could easily read:
We were honestly afraid that if we did include a representative of the factory overclocked GTX 460s (which is against our policy and we never do this) that we would get accused of being too favorable to Nvidia.
Why no concern there?
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
You accused me of being stupid. Rudely. Of being manipulated by Nvidia.
--i doubt you read my review.

And as far as my forum goes, i usually disagree with our mod on just about everything graphics related :p

i did say you were not particularly welcome, with an emphasis on particular. We do actively solicit our member's opinions - agree or disagree. There is probably way too much freedom there to disagree.

Nope, I don't think you are stupid. Never intended to be rude either. Maybe I didn't state something clearly, or you are too sensitive. Either way, there was never anything personal intended. It happens quite often that people misinterpret others when communicating on forums. The inflection of verbal speech is missing. It doesn't change my opinion of nVidia's tactics. I'm obviously not alone. You are free to review as you see fit. I am free to not read those reviews if I feel they are of no value. Although, I haven't said anything specific about your reviews, just, what is in my opinion, nVidia's meddling.

You say that it's probably for the best that I never sign up for your forums and I'm not particularly welcome there. Fair enough. It's your forum, not public property.
 

Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
1,469
21
81
I like the EVGA FTW it's grossly out of place without a comparable competitor from a chip that has just been released and doesn't afraid of anything
 

MangoX

Senior member
Feb 13, 2001
594
108
106
you are only the 2nd person (other than idontcare) whom I've actually seen write that he couldn't do 850 stable on a gtx 460. probably seen 15 specific users, some with multiple cards, that could do 850. probably about 7-8 of those 15 (including myself) could do 900+. I can't vouch for the others, but I ran mine at 905 for a week then went back to 880 b/c I run DC 24/7 on the card and I just want it to actually last a couple of years.

Add me as well. My GTX460 only does 825 stable for 24/7 use and it does F@H 24/7. The card does do 860 @ max voltage but only for benching. I get BSODs and driver crashes just 10-15 minutes into gaming.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
you are only the 2nd person (other than idontcare) whom I've actually seen write that he couldn't do 850 stable on a gtx 460. probably seen 15 specific users, some with multiple cards, that could do 850. probably about 7-8 of those 15 (including myself) could do 900+. I can't vouch for the others, but I ran mine at 905 for a week then went back to 880 b/c I run DC 24/7 on the card and I just want it to actually last a couple of years.

Lots of GTX460s won't clock to 850 stable @ stock volts. Here are just a few:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/24 (keep clicking "next page")

831, 837, 839, 851, 880, 861

3 out of those 6 cards couldn't hit 850 stably, and one of the ones that did was right at the cusp (851MHz).

Also, people who get duds are less likely to brag/talk about it on forums than people who get golden samples. Gee, I wonder why. ;)
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
2
0
Lots of GTX460s won't clock to 850 stable @ stock volts. Here are just a few:

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/24 (keep clicking "next page")

831, 837, 839, 851, 880, 861

3 out of those 6 cards couldn't hit 850 stably, and one of the ones that did was right at the cusp (851MHz).

Also, people who get duds are less likely to brag/talk about it on forums than people who get golden samples. Gee, I wonder why. ;)


So its more like 2 out of 6, 460s can overclock to 850 mhz core without more volt?

the EVGA 460 FTW being one of those 2/6 chips, means their cherry picked, its not really representive of the general 460's. I dont like that their used by reviewers, I think it paints a false picture, and to do it on a card launch? only one reason for that Nvidia are trying to downplay the 6800 cards.

on differnt note:
Evga 460 FTW doesnt sell cards alot of places around the world, yet (review sites around the world) they all recieved cards from nvidia and where told to use those in the benchmarks, even though you cant buy them on the market place there where being reviewed.

Fair? :thumbsdown:
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Fair? :thumbsdown:

Including overclocked variants is just dishonest. I'll go with reasonable doubt here and say that Anandtech was taken advantage of and made an honest mistake.

Can you please explain how a $185 factory preoverclocked GTX460 1GB and countless other $229 factory preoverclocked GTX460 1GBs are NOT the direct competitors of HD6850 and HD6870, respectively?

It's completely reasonable to compare factory pre-overclocked GTX460s because that's what the customer will be comparing when he/she is making a purchase. Or should the customer buy a 675mhz GTX460 for $200 when a faster version is available at the same price???

I think people are just upset that HD6850/6870's launch turned out to be less than they had hoped for (i.e., HD6870 >= HD5870 at $199). The performance and the price are not any better than NV's cards, despite launching 4 months later.

:biggrin:
 
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Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,222
136
Can you please explain how a $185 factory preoverclocked GTX460 1GB and countless other $229 factory preoverclocked GTX460 1GBs are NOT the direct competitors of HD6850 and HD6870, respectively?

It's completely reasonable to compare factory pre-overclocked GTX460s because that's what the customer will be comparing when he/she is making a purchase. Or should the customer buy a 675mhz GTX460 for $200 when a faster version is available at the same price???

I think people are just upset that HD6850/6870's launch turned out to be less than they had hoped for (i.e., HD6870 >= HD5870 at $199). The performance and the price are not any better than NV's cards, despite launching 4 months later.

:biggrin:


Way to obfuscate the argument and be intellectually dishonest.

You really, honestly believe that the linked MSI OC card you show above is in any way comparable to the EVGA FTW card? If so, you're more of a blind fanboi than anyone realized.

And who is upset that the 6870 didn't outperform the 5870? Maybe in your mind, but since the 6870 IS NOT A REPLACEMENT for the 5870 but instead a competitor to the GTX460, which it handily outperformed outside the EVGA FTW version (which AT also questioned the long term availability of.....), this release was no disappointment. Well, excepting the nvididiots.

But keep up the FUD. It's entertaining.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
You really, honestly believe that the linked MSI OC card you show above is in any way comparable to the EVGA FTW card? If so, you're more of a blind fanboi than anyone realized.

I said MSI OC competes with HD6850 at $179-185. FTW competes with HD6870 at $229-239. When did I say that the MSI OC videocard is comparable to the EVGA FTW card? You need to take a reading comprehension class because the word "respectively" is cleared spelled out in the message.

I am an nvidiot? LOL I've been on these forums for years recommending ATI cards and myself have owned 8500, 9700Pro and HD4890. I have even investigated the superior dual-precision capabilities of ATI cards. So, I am just going to ignore you and everyone else on these forums calling me a fanboy.

No one claimed that an HD6850/70 can't outperform a stock 675mhz GTX460 mhz. But thanks for completely misreading my post.
 
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mosox

Senior member
Oct 22, 2010
434
0
0

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
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It wasn't any factory overclocked card (you linked to a much weaker 725MHz card), it was an extreme card. The 68xx were not even overclocked.

The Sapphire HD 6850 can be overclocked past the HD 6870 stock and it's better than even the FTW in 3DMark. It's better than almost all the factory OCed GTX 460 in anything including Unigine Heaven.

http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/sapphire-radeon-hd6850-and-hd6870-review/22/

Please show us the factory overclocked 6850 that is guaranteed to run at that speed, with a warranty for it like the 460 FTW has.

That's part of the point: every FTW card at that price will run at that speed, while only some fraction of 6850s will stably overclock that high, with no guarantee of what you get.

Some $180 460s will overclock to FTW speeds too, but the AnandTech review didn't say you can expect to pay $180 to match a $240 6870, it said you can buy the FTW (which is $230) to do that.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
It wasn't any factory overclocked card (you linked to a much weaker 725MHz card), it was an extreme card. The 68xx were not even overclocked.

Yes, and I also said many times before that they compete on price. So if it's an extreme overclock out of the box or not is irrelevant. It's what the consumer can buy - an 850mhz $219-229 GTX460 or a stock HD6870. If they took a stock card and manually overclocked it with MSI Afterburner and then compared to the HD68xx series, then it would be completely unfair since that's not what most consumers will do.

If the overclocked GTX460 is not available at these prices or speeds in your current market, then please feel free to refer to the stock GTX460 numbers in the gaming charts. In that case the HD6850/70 cars are far superior. This is why I said, "depending on market availability and pricing".

DaveSimmons hit the nail on the head. Since when do 2 cards priced the same are not competing with each other, regardless of specs?
 
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happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
14,387
480
126
I think people are just upset that HD6850/6870's launch turned out to be less than they had hoped for (i.e., HD6870 >= HD5870 at $199). The performance and the price are not any better than NV's cards, despite launching 4 months later.

This pretty much sums it up.

And who is upset that the 6870 didn't outperform the 5870?

Considering the 15 or so members that were shouting out "Nvidia will have no answer", Nvidia can't lower there prices, because it too big and exspensive"
ect. ect .ect, price/performance seems right on time to me for all the cards.

So in short we got lower prices and more choices as well, so we all win. :)

Edit: There is nothing wrong with having FACTORY overclocked cards vs stock cards, IF THEY COST THE SAME. Why not?
 
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MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
4
81
Comparing anything other than MSRP's in official reviews is shoddy journalism at best. If you want to do a round up of what's available from AIB's, go for it, those are very informative. Same thing with an overclocking round up, very helpful as well. However, market prices are way too volatile, and to write a review with the intention of making official comparisons or recommendations based on custom AIB parts isn't doing justice to your readers.

The biggest problem here is that they breached their editorial policy because NVIDIA suggested they do so. It's not a stretch to consider what else they might do or have done because a company strong-armed them into it. I'm not saying they have or will, but hey, they already opened the door.
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
2
0
because Nvidia lowered the prices a few days before the launch of the 68xx cards, only so they can compete in the review sites. We cant know if nvidia wont take prices up again 2 months from now.

Because nvidia (makes reviewers) use the most insane factory overclocked 460 thats sold... but asks review sites to use it in countrys where its not sold.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
14,387
480
126
SO we get better video card prices , more choice, a much better mid range ,but you guys find a review to complain about ,because the 6800 series was not the king of the hill?

I don't understand, I really don't. It's called competition, its good for us.
You guys sound like fanboys on a mission. :(
 

mosox

Senior member
Oct 22, 2010
434
0
0
Please show us the factory overclocked 6850 that is guaranteed to run at that speed, with a warranty for it like the 460 FTW has.

Come on, in every review the reference parts are overclocked and the results shown. Check out the GTX 460 review. No less than six GTX 460s overclocked, two 460/1GB and four 460/768MB.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3809/nvidias-geforce-gtx-460-the-200-king/18

Now it has to be factory overclocked to appear in the review? Since when? Since Nvidia is in trouble?

Also show me one ATI factory overclocked card in an Nvidia review.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
because Nvidia lowered the prices a few days before the launch of the 68xx cards, only so they can compete in the review sites. We cant know if nvidia wont take prices up again 2 months from now.

5850 / 5870 prices went up after launch, but only because nvidia wasn't competing with AMD until the 460 arrived. Once nvidia was competing again the prices dropped. So as long as the 6850/70 are available at current prices it doesn't seem likely nvidia will try anything.

Yes, nvidia might someday raise prices, or AMD might again. It would be stupid for either of them to do it alone, but it could happen.

Reviews need to reflect current reality though, not play what-if someone decides to do something different in a few months.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Come on, in every review the reference parts are overclocked and the results shown. Check out the GTX 460 review. No less than six GTX 460s overclocked, two 460/1GB and four 460/768MB.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3809/nvidias-geforce-gtx-460-the-200-king/18

Now it has to be factory overclocked to appear in the review? Since when? Since Nvidia is in trouble?

Also show me one ATI factory overclocked card in an Nvidia review.

I was explaining why it makes sense to include the FTW in this specific review. It's a factory overclock you can pay for right now with guaranteed results. It's nvidia's official response to the 6870.

Until I can buy a 6850 with a factory overclock, it's a gamble. Maybe I'd luck out with a $180 6850 or 460, but that's like a box of chocolates.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
14,387
480
126
Also show me one ATI factory overclocked card in an Nvidia review.

There is none last I looked or they are the usual 20 or 50 core bumps. And price are about even now, the 6800 series factory overclocked cards will be EVEN more exspensive.
 

mosox

Senior member
Oct 22, 2010
434
0
0
- Sapphire HD 5850 Toxic reviewed by anand on 2/18/2010

- GTX 480 and GTX 470 reviewed by anand on 3/26/2010

Same test system so no need to bench the Toxic again, only to add the results in the 470/480 review. Direct competitor, factory overclocked, the works.

And it's not in the 470/480 review.
 

Gikaseixas

Platinum Member
Jul 1, 2004
2,836
218
106
I think people are just upset that HD6850/6870's launch turned out to be less than they had hoped for (i.e., HD6870 >= HD5870 at $199).
That's just plain dumb of you to say. I'm disappointed.

Since when where 6870 suppose to beat 5870? AMD positioned those cards to compete with GTX 460, not GTX 470 or 5870.
If you have to make a point at least try harder next time.
 

Gikaseixas

Platinum Member
Jul 1, 2004
2,836
218
106
- Sapphire HD 5850 Toxic reviewed by anand on 2/18/2010

- GTX 480 and GTX 470 reviewed by anand on 3/26/2010

Same test system so no need to bench the Toxic again, only to add the results in the 470/480 review. Direct competitor, factory overclocked, the works.

And it's not in the 470/480 review.

AMD didn't ask them to, that's why :)
 

Gikaseixas

Platinum Member
Jul 1, 2004
2,836
218
106
I was explaining why it makes sense to include the FTW in this specific review. It's a factory overclock you can pay for right now with guaranteed results

you can also buy a 5870 Toxic but i never saw a Nvidia official release (review) with such AMD's offerings. Why only now?? Don't you find that fishy???