Should AT include OC'd Cards in Reviews?

[MrK6]

Including overclocked variants is just dishonest. I'll go with reasonable doubt here and say that Anandtech was taken advantage of and made an honest mistake. If I see this as a trend, then I'll have to reconsider how much worth I place on Anandtech's reviews. Tech sites review overclocked products all the time, but not in launch reviews and especially not as standard competition to a competitor's reference/stock offerings. If Anandtech wants to do round-ups of overclocked parts, I think it would be great as it would show a sampling of what's available for purchase. However, the way it was done in the 6850/6870 review was just dishonest; not by Ryan Smith or any Anandtech staff member but dishonest of NVIDIA. Kind of makes me glad the last NVIDIA card I purchased was a GTX 295.

 

[AnandThenMan]

I'd be concerned about the long term reliability of the heavily overclocked variants. It's quite telling when you look at the warranty differences on the EVGA version. Then again, I don't think Nvidia cares too much about long term reliability. A lot of people were shafted over bumpgate, and the problem was never properly fixed, all you got was a replacement that had the same defect.

 

[AnandThenMan]

However, the way it was done in the 6850/6870 review was just dishonest; not by Ryan Smith or any Anandtech staff member but dishonest of NVIDIA. Kind of makes me glad the last NVIDIA card I purchased was a GTX 295.

I understand where you're coming from, but who's running this site? Nvidia?

 

[rgallant]

-why was the 460 FWT used in the 25xx x 1600 charts with the 480 . doesn't the standard 460 tank at this res.?
- people say it's about the card prices so why are these 68xx pitted against the high end card and only the nv FTW in the highest res. charts. really a cheap review .

-note I only buy nv cards

 

[bryanW1995]

That image is further proof of why it wasn't valid to include the overclocked card. The vast majority of 460s come overclocked, and a casual reader won't know one overclock from the next. For once, Tomshardware did the right thing and not Anandtech. Toms went and averaged the overclocks being sold and put that in their review.

toms got close, but 720 is probably the correct speed to use. evga is using that as their base clock now, as are many others. that should be the standard non-oc gtx 460 speed going forward imho.

 

[Pantalaimon]

i don't remember reading a hard and fast rule anywhere on AT's main site about not reviewing overclocked cards.

Then I guess you didn't read the review very closely. This is what was said in the review, 'As a matter of editorial policy we do not include overclocked cards on general reviews'.

An 'editorial policy' no less, and here they break that policy. Is this policy just for fun and they can just break it when ever convenient?

 

[bryanW1995]

On launch day there were few, not numerous 820mhz models. There were no models that did 850mhz. The EVGA SC clocked at 763mhz, not 820mhz. Sonic platinum was 800mhz I believe, but it was very hot and noisy (updated bios appeared to fix this), the sonic platinum card was caught ina bit of a scandel when it was found that the card Sonic sent to reviewers was built differently (better) than what was being sold at retailers. I bought one, and returned it after finding out this info and having HDMI issues. Bought evga SC instead.

The 460's are great o/c's, but 850 is an outlier value. My 460 did 800mhz fine, it would not do 850mhz. That card has been sent to EVGA for replacement because it died.

you are only the 2nd person (other than idontcare) whom I've actually seen write that he couldn't do 850 stable on a gtx 460. probably seen 15 specific users, some with multiple cards, that could do 850. probably about 7-8 of those 15 (including myself) could do 900+. I can't vouch for the others, but I ran mine at 905 for a week then went back to 880 b/c I run DC 24/7 on the card and I just want it to actually last a couple of years.

 

[bryanW1995]

my pleasure

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130575

The same price as the HD 6870

$240

Anand or i would be remiss not to include it

And it is a preview of what is to come from Nvidia to counter the AMD 600 series.

your situation is different from AT's. you have consistently included your OC 5870 in your reviews; AT has never done it. A big part of this issue is the way that AT runs their reviews, and it is if nothing else extremely annoying to longtime readers that they ended up using nvidia's strategy even though they disagreed with it. We all know that NV is the big dog in gpu's, and one late release isn't going to change that, but it was surprising to see Anand allow himself to be cast in this light. As mentioned previously some sort of avg or moderately oc'd card would have made sense in light of gtx 460's strong oc'ing ability, but taking the fastest oc gtx 460 on the market left a bad taste in many people's mouth.


edit: btw, here is alienbabeltech's 6870 article.

 

[apoppin]

Didn't you read why Anand decided to include the overclocked GTX 460 in the review?

Much for the same reason that i did; and that is one reason we do not have an 'editorial policy'
- i didn't talk politics with Nvidia. i simply asked for a GTX 460 and i got an EVGA OC to evaluate. All that i had to do is take that EVGA and simply lower the clocks to reference.

As a matter of fact, i just might put that EVGA card through its paces against the mildly overclocked Galaxy GTX 460 and then try asynchronous SLI for a new review vs. CrossFire. The fun never ends (after i get some more sleep).
:thumbsup:

Then I guess you didn't read the review very closely. This is what was said in the review, 'As a matter of editorial policy we do not include overclocked cards on general reviews'.

An 'editorial policy' no less, and here they break that policy. Is this policy just for fun and they can just break it when ever convenient?

 

[bryanW1995]

No one answered because it's rhetorical at best and a straw man at worst. It has been pointed out that there are in actuality very few 850MHz GTX-460. Price isn't the argument.

I noticed that the GTX-470 is not included in your review, while the GTX-460 FTW was. Exactly as nVidia wanted. How does a stock GTX-470 compare to the GTX-460 FTW? Not too well, and nVidia I'm sure thanks you for not making that comparison. Just as much as they thank you for using the highest O/C GTX-460 for comparison to the 6800. nVidia should have zero say in the review of an AMD card!

be careful, you are dangerously calling the only person in the entire world who liked 2900xt more than g80 an nvidia shill!

 

[apoppin]

Yes i did like 2900XT; it is still around here .. somewhere. It was a decent alternative to my 8800 GTS 640-OC. It was cheaper, came with Orange Box, and it kept up with the GTS. OtOH, i really like my 8800-GTX; it still keeps up with midrange GPUs in DX10.

AND all i see is more information with Anand's review by including Nvidia's overclocked alternative to HD 6870. It is reviewer's choice and Anand's decision to make. Frankly, i'd like to see him overclock his cards in his reviews .. but maybe not, it give me something to do


AMD Radeon HD 6870
AMD Radeon HD 6850
AMD Radeon HD 5870
AMD Radeon HD 5850
AMD Radeon HD 5770
AMD Radeon HD 4870
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 480
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 470
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 1GB
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460 768MB
NVIDIA GeForce GTS 450
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260 Core 216
EVGA GeForce GTX 460 1GB FTW

 

[bryanW1995]

First of all, AMD's partners will be bringing out overclocked Barts video cards shortly

Secondly, you seem to be disagreeing with the amount of overclock that Mr Smith allowed.
:|

Feel free to ignore the results of a card that is the same price as the HD 6870, its direct competitor in price and evidently performance.

i expect that when Nvidia launches the GTX 460+, AMD will send me a highly overclocked HD 6870 .. should i neglect to include it then?

sorry, just got to this quote (LONG thread and I'm in philadelphia this weekend...). I think that I answered it with another one of my posts by saying that you have shown consistency in using oc'd cards while AT has shown inconsistency by normally not using oc cards but "just this once" saying that it's ok.

 

[apoppin]

Again, i'll say it is reviewer's choice. Smith said that they believed this card should be shown as an alternative. They made very careful distinction between it and the stock clocked cards. You got to remember that they did not have to include it - they wanted to include it or else they might be accused of bias in not presenting the alternative. And EVGA is a major partner of Nvidia; if they do not have a good stock they are shooting themselves in the foot. No one will wait for a back order. In my own review, i wanted to balance the EVGA card by overclocking the two new 68x0s to show what scaling was line. And it is evidently improved; CF scaling also over 5000 series (from just a few days with the cards).

sorry, just got to this quote (LONG thread and I'm in philadelphia this weekend...). I think that I answered it with another one of my posts by saying that you have shown consistency in using oc'd cards while AT has shown inconsistency by normally not using oc cards but "just this once" saying that it's ok.

 

[Pantalaimon]

Much for the same reason that i did; and that is one reason we do not have an 'editorial policy'

But this is not a discussion about your site's way of working. Here they admit they have an editorial policy here, which they now broke. So what's the point of having a policy if they can just break it. If you set a policy to yourself then you better follow it instead of just breaking it when convenient.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Again, i'll say it is reviewer's choice.

If it's the reviewers choice to start cherry picking what cards they review (and even what cards they put in certain charts like was done on this site) then that reviewer can't be trusted.

 

[Pantalaimon]

i'll say it is reviewer's choice

On some other sites sure, but on this site, no, since it's against, again, the site's editorial policy.

If a policy is set then follow it. Don't set a policy and find excuses to break it.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Didn't you read why Anand decided to include the overclocked GTX 460 in the review?

Much for the same reason that i did; and that is one reason we do not have an 'editorial policy'
- i didn't talk politics with Nvidia. i simply asked for a GTX 460 and i got an EVGA OC to evaluate. All that i had to do is take that EVGA and simply lower the clocks to reference.

As a matter of fact, i just might put that EVGA card through its paces against the mildly overclocked Galaxy GTX 460 and then try asynchronous SLI for a new review vs. CrossFire. The fun never ends (after i get some more sleep).
:thumbsup:

If you can't see whats wrong with this whole ordeal it's probably for the best I've never visited your site. I just need the information made available to me in a way that isn't biased and reeks of marketing. It looks like I can no longer depend on this or your site for that.

 

[DaveSimmons]

So much emotion from people claiming bias and breaking of laws set in stone. Or that anyone who disagrees with them "just can't see" they are wrong and are being duped by nvidia.

Or that readers can tell two different 460 models apart easily, but will be hopelessly confused by seeing three of them.

At least we've moved past people claiming that one of the two FTW models being out of stock at newegg is "proof" that the cards don't really exist and were just a a trick by nvidia.

 

[AnandThenMan]

So much emotion from people claiming bias and breaking of laws set in stone. Or that anyone who disagrees with them "just can't see" they are wrong and are being duped by nvidia.

Or that readers can tell two different 460 models apart easily, but will be hopelessly confused by seeing three of them.

All people want is consistency and fairness. If you don't include overclocked cards as part of a policy, then just don't. No exceptions. And if you do decide to allow it, then always allow it, and include overclocked variants from all camps. Fair?

 

[DaveSimmons]

^ It depends. I agree with the policy being used in the past because the performance of the factory overclocked cards didn't make enough of a difference to matter (5-10&#37.

This is the first time I can recall when all of these were true:
- The GPU maker is promoting overclocking of the chip in their own marketing (see the slides a few pages back)
- The GPU supports massive overclocking, similar to the intel Core 2 CPUs that almost anyone can overclock by 25% or more with stock cooling and no voltage tweaks.
- Overclocked GPUs are the official response by the maker to its competitor's new products
- A factory overclocked GPU is already available at retail at the time of testing, that offers a massive performance increase at a comparable price to the competition.

It's an unusual situation. I see including the FTW as fairness to card buyers, which is more important to me than fairness to AMD or nvidia.

 

[3DVagabond]

There are very few EVGA GTX 460's left because of Anand's article
- people liked the value and they sold out. How hard is that to understand? There will be more available. The entire 460 line is hard for Nvidia to keep in stock

Please, be real or there's no point in having a discussion. I wasn't talking about the EVGA GTX-460 FTW, which is sold out. I was talking in the number of models available O/C @ 850, relative to the number of models at lower clocks. Overall, the 850MHz models are very few. They are in no way representative of the majority. They are the cream of the crop, the best of the best, and you (and others) saw fit to compare them with run of the mill 6800's. It was also, not only requested by nVidia, but they even supplied the cards to make it happen.

Why no GTX 470? i don't have one.

i put in a request over THREE WEEKS ago for a GTX 460-1GB, a 768M version and a GTX 470. Galaxy was SOLD OUT of ALL GTX 460s .. the SAME WEEK OF THE REVIEW, they got me one (GTX 460-1GB) by 2nd day air FedEx from China; Nvidia got me the OCd EVGA card and THURSDAY (the morning the NDA was up) the 768MB version also arrived

So, they sent the 460's you requested, they sent the EVGA FTW that they wanted you to use even though you didn't request it, and they didn't send you the 470 you requested. Shows what cards nVidia wanted in the review. Again, they shouldn't be deciding what cards are included in an AMD review. They certainly aren't going to be unbiased.

Nvidia has NOTHING to do with my reviews - no more than AMD does.
- i used the OC version of GTX 460 because it ADDS *more* info - and i used it alongside the clearly labeled stock versions of GTX 460 and the stock and O/C'd HD 6870 and 6850

nVidia sent you the card they wanted compared to the 6800. They didn't send you a 470, even though it is comparable performance wise to the 6870, because they didn't want it compared. Seems to me they had plenty of say.

Perhaps i should have left the overclocked HD 6850 out of my review because it had a very good overclock

As I said, keep it real. You O/C'd a card that you were reviewing. You didn't take an O/C'd card that was sent to you by the competition, specifically to show their product in the best light. It wasn't an nVidia review. They shouldn't be able to manipulate the review of a product that isn't theirs.

 

[apoppin]

Seriously who cares? We don't depend on advertising and it is probably for the best that you never sign up for our forums neither. With your crappy attitude toward our host here, you are not particularly welcome at my my site.

My opinion is my own and i often disagree with our other senior editors.

In my own opinion, i believe it is Anand's right to make editorial exceptions as he attempted to explain to you. If you don't accept his explanations and rudely attribute unethical and ulterior motives to your host, then i don't care to explain anything to you neither.

i am really busy and think it is a wast of my time to discuss this with you any longer. It is not my issue nor is it my duty to defend an editor's decision on a site not my own, although i support his right to do so.

aloha

If you can't see whats wrong with this whole ordeal it's probably for the best I've never visited your site. I just need the information made available to me in a way that isn't biased and reeks of marketing. It looks like I can no longer depend on this or your site for that.

 

[apoppin]

Using the EVGA FTW was an editorial decision made consistent with my site's lack of policy. i included what *i* considered important - after consulting with the other senior editors of the ABT staff.

*i* decided to include the EVGA GTX 460 alongside the Galaxy GTX 460 at stock to show GTX 460 scaling with core speed increase. Without the EVGA card, i would have overclocked the Galaxy GTX 460 to show core scaling ANYWAY - maybe i would have got higher than the factory OC. i ALSO showed HD 68x0 scaling for the same purpose. Apples to apples with 22 games .. more *information* for my readers and consistent with every review of its kind.

Everything was labeled clearly. The OC's were separated from the stock clocks and nothing was misrepresented. No one was fooled. What my review did was show the mechanics of what is happening>>
>> That Nvidia IS positioning their overclocked GTX 460 against HD 6870 JUST AS AMD DID with the Overclocked HD 5870s when GTX 480 came out. - i also overclocked the HD 5870 to the max to show the core scaling of each competing GPU and i have been consistent in every one of my own reviews since them. Again, i do these reviews for me and share them freely. i love both companies technologies and dissimilar methods. If you don't like what i am doing, please never visit.... No one cares. We will continue doing what we love to do and we will take direction from our own members.

C-ya! i have much work to do. i don't care to discuss opinion any longer.

Please, be real or there's no point in having a discussion. I wasn't talking about the EVGA GTX-460 FTW, which is sold out. I was talking in the number of models available O/C @ 850, relative to the number of models at lower clocks. Overall, the 850MHz models are very few. They are in no way representative of the majority. They are the cream of the crop, the best of the best, and you (and others) saw fit to compare them with run of the mill 6800's. It was also, not only requested by nVidia, but they even supplied the cards to make it happen.



So, they sent the 460's you requested, they sent the EVGA FTW that they wanted you to use even though you didn't request it, and they didn't send you the 470 you requested. Shows what cards nVidia wanted in the review. Again, they shouldn't be deciding what cards are included in an AMD review. They certainly aren't going to be unbiased.

nVidia sent you the card they wanted compared to the 6800. They didn't send you a 470, even though it is comparable performance wise to the 6870, because they didn't want it compared. Seems to me they had plenty of say.



As I said, keep it real. You O/C'd a card that you were reviewing. You didn't take an O/C'd card that was sent to you by the competition, specifically to show their product in the best light. It wasn't an nVidia review. They shouldn't be able to manipulate the review of a product that isn't theirs.

 

[3DVagabond]

Seriously who cares? We don't depend on advertising and it is probably for the best that you never sign up for our forums neither. With your crappy attitude toward our host here, you are not particularly welcome at my my site.

My opinion is my own and i often disagree with our other senior editors.

In my own opinion, i believe it is Anand's right to make editorial exceptions as he attempted to explain to you. If you don't accept his explanations and rudely attribute unethical and ulterior motives to your host, then i don't care to explain anything to you neither.

i am really busy and think it is a wast of my time to discuss this with you any longer. It is not my issue nor is it my duty to defend an editor's decision on a site not my own, although i support his right to do so.

aloha

I never accused Anandtech nor you of anything. Don't falsely accuse me, please. I accused nVidia. As far as not wanting me at your site, fine. Be sure to add to the rules of your forum that everyone must agree with you or they aren't welcome.

Anandtech obviously has a different attitude towards their subscribers than you do. They actually solicited the opinions of those who read their reviews.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3988/the-use-of-evgas-geforce-gtx-460-ftw-in-last-nights-review

 

[mosox]

Please get some HD 6850s from AMD for research purposes and tell us if they can be flashed to the 6870 BIOS.