Should AT include OC'd Cards in Reviews?

[Hard Ball]

Well crap I was just about to add a poll to my thread.
Ah well - maybe I'll just mirror yours or maybe Idontcare can merge them

Ah, I didn't wait long enough for you to respond in the other thread.

If the votes already cast here can be preserved, then it would be good to merge it with your thread.

 

[blastingcap]

Tom's solution - to take an average of a bunch of cards and spit out a number to apply across the board - is not representative of any one particular card. Aggregating a score is not indicative of any one particular product. Quite the oppposite, actually. On the other hand, "EVGA GTX 460 1 gig FTW (OC)" and "Nvidia GTX460 1 gig" are representative of two exact cards that can be bought and perform exactly how Anand's review says without any modifications whatsoever.

But please, go through my post history and link up some comments where I clearly demonstrated bias towards either Nvidia or AMD. Please point out any and all comments I've made I demonstrated an instance of prejudice, or used unreasoned judgement.

Ryan pointed out that it's only one SKU though and that it was unlikely that NV had tons of golden samples to go around. Read the AT review where Ryan figures that if NV wants to push FTW so hard, why not make an entire product line out of it like a GTX461 or something?

I think there are multiple alternatives to the way AT handled the situation and it's healthy to discuss how other alternatives could be better or worse. Clearly it is an issue if Anand himself got involved. It could be at the end of the day that AT decides the status quo is best. That's fine, at least AT readers got to discuss it!

I will leave that up to people who would care to do that.

 

[Paratus]

If you look at the comments at [ H ] they are getting reamed for NOT comparing the 6800 series to the OC'd 460's and even the 470.

AT readers are NOT the average Joe's. We know what an EVGA FTW means and quite frankly everyone here would want to know how the 6800 series does against slower OC'd cards like the FTW and the faster more expensive options like the 470 and 5870.

I think the article covered it's bases nicely.

HOWEVER,

The extra cost of the EVGA model needs to be more prominently displayed and OC'd numbers from the 6800 series was missing. Those are my two minor gripes. To me I came away with the fact that the 6850 easily handles the 460 GTX 768 and stock 1GB models and the 6870 trades blows with the 470 and is generally faster than the fastest OC'd 460 1GB

POLL ADDED

 

[Idontcare]

Seems like Anand and Ryan felt it was more than just a mole hill to dedicate a new article about it. Right?

That's not what I get out of the article.

In fact going by some of the rancorous posts in here I'm none too sure that many people have actually read the second article.

People here seem needlessly wrapped up in this. Over-invested and have made it personal/emotional.

People are making mountains out of mole hills. The second article merely recognizes this has transpired since the first article was released, it doesn't say there is any merit to it having happened, but it clearly says they don't want it to happen again so they are looking for feedback to prevent future occurrence.

 

[mosox]

Hi all, I made this account to comment on this. I have both Nvidia and ATI.

Anand included an OC card in their GTX 460 review back some time ago, also overclocked the stock cards and presented the results. However no HD 5850 OC was in there (the 460 was $300+ back then).
Now they didn't even OC the reference cards from AMD.

The prices go up and down all the time one can't say "I added this because it's in the price range". It is now, what about three days ago or three weeks from now?

Basically one can't find AMD OC cards on anands' general reviews but can find Nvidia OC cards instead whether they review ATI/AMD cards or Nvidia cards.

Anyway, one can't compare a Phenom II X4 @4.2GHz with a i5-750 stock in a gaming bench. It's not fair even if the Phenom is actually cheaper ("in the price range").

What's next, the Gigabyte Super Overclock Series GTX 470 in the HD 6950 review? The Zotac AMP! GeForce GTX 480 in the HD 5970 review? Those will be the cards that Nvidia will send to the reviewers next time? Or maybe they'll have the time to make a GTX 470 Super Duper Extra Mega Overclocked Edition?

Stop pandering to the manufacturers please.

 

[RussianSensation]

Including factory OC cards makes sense sometimes because they do represent a choice available at retail, unlike OCs done on your own where you have no guarantee of performance. It's also useful to see what the power, heat, noise tradeoffs are.

I agree. If they took a stock GTX460 from the store and then overclocked it, that's an invalid comparison because that's not what the typical customer can get at the store. But if you can get a factory pre-overclocked card, and with warranty, why is that not a viable purchase/competing product?

The way I see it is if go out to buy 2 competing products TODAY, I am going to compare them based on price and "features" they provide.

Let's say there are 2 chocolate bars I like (Mars and Snickers). Yesterday, Mars had 80% of the volume of a Snickers bar but they both cost the same. To gain back market share, Mars decided to add 20% more volume because the company is running a promotion to attract new customers away from Snickers. The day I make the purchase, it's fully relevant to me that I can buy 20% more volume of Mars.

EVGA GTX460 FTW is that Mars chocolate bar. It costs the same, and the manufacturer decided to sweeten the deal and added something extra on top without raising the price relative to the competition. On top of this they have lifetime warranty, a free game and the card runs cooler at load and faster....you can see how the competitor is not very happy...but that's free market for you!

For everyone else around the world where this promotion doesn't apply, they have a stock chocolate bar to look at in the graph, in which case the Snickers is more appealing.

What a simple concept. More information = better for the consumer. Since the products cost about the same, this is the choice a consumer would face at the store. If HD6870 pre-overclocked were available for $239, sure include them in the review.

Since AT included both stock and pre-overclocked variants, they covered both possibilities a consumer may face in his/her home market. How is this biased??

 

[cusideabelincoln]

I personally don't want to see overclocked cards, from either company, in normal reference reviews. Make a dedicated article comparing overclocked cards, because I don't want to sift through 5 GTX 460s and 5 HD 6850s while looking at every graph Anand posts.

Now since this particular instance only included one overclocked card, it wasn't so bad. But I do agree with Anand's policy; they shouldn't do it as it could lead to some kind of precedent. If they include one card this time, how many could they include in the future? If overclocking is a concern it's much wiser to make a different article about it, like they did with that Gigabyte GTX 260 or 275 and much the same as how Techpowerup does their articles.

 

[jruchko]

The only issue I had with the review was that the 6850/6870 did not get overclocked. Before I buy a new GPU I like to have a general idea of how high I can overclock them, and how well the performance scales.

From what I have seen only 2 reviews overclocked the cards, and they got very different results with the 6850, but both showed that the 6870 is a very poor card for overclocking.

 

[tviceman]

Ryan pointed out that it's only one SKU though and that it was unlikely that NV had tons of golden samples to go around. Read the AT review where Ryan figures that if NV wants to push FTW so hard, why not make an entire product line out of it like a GTX461 or something?

I think there are multiple alternatives to the way AT handled the situation and it's healthy to discuss how other alternatives could be better or worse. Clearly it is an issue if Anand himself got involved. It could be at the end of the day that AT decides the status quo is best. That's fine, at least AT readers got to discuss it!

I will leave that up to people who would care to do that.

Nvidia hasn't officially sanctioned or released a gtx460 based on different clock speeds because their product line is too crowded as is it. The gtx465, even though performing very close with a gtx460, has flattened out worse than a pancake and if Nvidia were to officially release a higher clocked gtx460, it would cannablize (even more) gtx470 sales - a part that likely not making much money at all to begin with. Nvidia's product line is a quagmire for them and the gtx465/470's performance was the #1 reason the gtx460 wasn't released with higher clock speeds to begin with.

Take into account the large amount of rumors that have hit the web this week that new cards from Nvidia are coming very soon - one very telling and specific hint coming from Tom's article you keep bringing up - and it's just one more reason Nvidia doesn't want to officially release a higher clocked gtx460.

 

[psoomah]

I don't think there ia anything wrong with having a gtx460 FTW in the review.
If I were a buyer reading the review I would be comparing price/performance of the 6870,6850 and the gtx460 ftw.

So I would click my on my favorite website (newegg) and come up with this......

Then I check which one is faster at the best price I want to pay.
I thought everyone shops like that?

No, everyone doesn't shop like that. Some consider power draw on idle and loaded, noise, crossfire/sli performance, o/c headroom, feature sets, future proofing ... ...

 

[Idontcare]

Well crap I was just about to add a poll to my thread.
Ah well - maybe I'll just mirror yours or maybe Idontcare can merge them

Ah, I didn't wait long enough for you to respond in the other thread.

If the votes already cast here can be preserved, then it would be good to merge it with your thread.

I can preserve the votes but only if you guys make your polls identical.

To do this I would need to temporarily lock both threads. It would take all of 2-3 minutes.

Otherwise I do recommend I merge this thread into the other, losing Hard Ball's poll in the process but keeping the discussion in one thread.

Lemme know.

 

[happy medium]

(the 460 was $300+ back then

The gtx460 was NEVER 300$ ,it released at $229. Back then a 5850 with a good FACTORY overclock was $330, a full 100$ more. WHy on earth would you pit a factory overclocked 330$ 5850 vs a 229$ gtx460?

Mabe they should have used a factory overclocked gtx460 @ 850 vs the fastest FACTORY overclocked 5850, but to be honest the 5850 would have lost, and STILL cost more.

So what is your point?

 

[psoomah]

The wording on that poll is RETARDED.

 

[tviceman]

The wording on that poll is RETARDED.

Huh that's strange I think it gets exactly to the heart of the situation.

 

[happy medium]

Some consider power draw on idle and loaded, noise, crossfire/sli performance, o/c headroom, feature sets, future proofing ...

If you shop like that , your what I called an advanced shopper and should allready KNOW the gtx460 FTW cost more then a stock card, so your point is pointless.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

There's nothing wrong with including factory overclocked cards, I actually encourage it.

It would be more fair if there were factory overclocked 6800s to compare to but there currently are none.

As long as a majority have access to the card and will be able to plug the card into their system and get the performance without doing anything extra on their part it is more than valid.

User overclocks are more of a grey area until we can come to a consensus on what the average expected overclock is.

I think really the only thing I might change is put price tags on the graphs or include a price/performance graph.

 

[Hard Ball]

I can preserve the votes but only if you guys make your polls identical.

To do this I would need to temporarily lock both threads. It would take all of 2-3 minutes.

Otherwise I do recommend I merge this thread into the other, losing Hard Ball's poll in the process but keeping the discussion in one thread.

Lemme know.

IDC;

I don't think I can change the poll choices without losing any votes. Can the poll in the other thread be changed?

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

100 replies...and only 7 voters on the poll?

I feel that it's a good idea reviewing factory overclocked cards. But I think it would have been more appropriate to have reviewed the 460 FTW separately, and released that before the 6870/6850 review. I don't mind having the OC'd 460 in there, as long as the relevant comparisons about performance, price, power, heat, etc. are still here; but it would have been nice to have a separate article just for the 460 FTW.

 

[psoomah]

Is there some reason there was no choice accurately reflecting the actual situation that caused this upset?

z. It is unfair to pit a stock card against an o/ced card in an initial review.

 

[happy medium]

I think it would have been more appropriate to have reviewed the 460 FTW separately, and released that before the 6870/6850 review

WHy they cost the same, they are in the same tier of performance, they are both avalable, wHats the difference?

 

[Attic]

Hi all, I made this account to comment on this. I have both Nvidia and ATI.

Anand included an OC card in their GTX 460 review back some time ago, also overclocked the stock cards and presented the results. However no HD 5850 OC was in there (the 460 was $300+ back then).
Now they didn't even OC the reference cards from AMD.

The prices go up and down all the time one can't say "I added this because it's in the price range". It is now, what about three days ago or three weeks from now?

Basically one can't find AMD OC cards on anands' general reviews but can find Nvidia OC cards instead whether they review ATI/AMD cards or Nvidia cards.

Anyway, one can't compare a Phenom II X4 @4.2GHz with a i5-750 stock in a gaming bench. It's not fair even if the Phenom is actually cheaper ("in the price range").

What's next, the Gigabyte Super Overclock Series GTX 470 in the HD 6950 review? The Zotac AMP! GeForce GTX 480 in the HD 5970 review? Those will be the cards that Nvidia will send to the reviewers next time? Or maybe they'll have the time to make a GTX 470 Super Duper Extra Mega Overclocked Edition?

Stop pandering to the manufacturers please.

Agree. Glad you took the time to share your thoughts.

Really where does it stop if Anandtech has set a precedent to include limited edition, very highly (not typical of market condition) OC'd cards in the testing/comparison's of new GPU's. Especially if the pressure is coming from manufactures to include this kind of behavior in reviews, it's going to make a mess of things and what we are going to get it is special edition limited edition super clocked cards being fed to reviewers on the eve of the competions new product launch....

oh wait...

yes we are already there.

It's the wrong path to go down if you want to present the clearest picture of the GPU playing field. The OC'd versions of the reference cards really need to have their own editorials and pro's con's.

 

[AnandThenMan]

That's not what I get out of the article.

In fact going by some of the rancorous posts in here I'm none too sure that many people have actually read the second article.

People here seem needlessly wrapped up in this. Over-invested and have made it personal/emotional.

People are making mountains out of mole hills. The second article merely recognizes this has transpired since the first article was released, it doesn't say there is any merit to it having happened, but it clearly says they don't want it to happen again so they are looking for feedback to prevent future occurrence.

Maybe it's just me, but if Anand took the time to respond and write a front page article about this issue, then it has merit.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Why end with OC solutions?

Why not custom solutions? Heat, noise and power consumption are all factors in a buy.

What happens if in the future either AMD or NVIDIA have an AIB offer some limited OC model at the same price around the release of a competitor card?

Imagine NVIDIA was about to launch GTX480 and GTX470 and bam Sapphire or XFX just release an OC 5870 to 950 or 1000 at an amazing price?

Sure this time the 6870 doesn't seem to OC very well but I can see this creating a potential for abuse.

If a card has great OC potential talk about it. Talk about factory OC variants when weighting buying decisions. Link to roundups and reviews where you show OC scaling.

No need to include it on the charts between stock reference competitors.

I voted for -It is only fair when the OCed variant is the highest volume of the model

 

[happy medium]

special edition limited edition super clocked cards being fed to reviewers

The gtx460 FTW has been on Newegg for a month and avalable. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can buy it.

Its not a special edition card, EVGA ALWAYS has a stock, super clocked , super super clocked ,and FTW editions.

It just so happends this FTW edition is cheaper and faster then the 6870.
Thats the REAL problem hear!!!!!!!!

Let the fanboys cry. I think its ridiculous and has been made into a mountain from a molehill.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Its not a special edition card, EVGA ALWAYS has a stock, super clocked , super super clocked ,and FTW editions.

It just so happends this FTW edition is cheaper and faster then the 6870.
Thats the REAL problem hear!!!!!!!!

So then people should be advised to buy only the EVGA version and nothing else. Actually, why not just review only that one?