Shimmering brought up in the [H]ardOCP 7900 article

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Jun 14, 2003
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Originally posted by: Ackmed
Originally posted by: harobikes333
Ackmed, how did you fix the shimmering with your sli'd gtx's...? Did you? And how big of a lcd do you have. I'm planning on a 19in. Should the shimmering affect me if I buy a 7900...?

You cant "fix" it. You can however reduce it. You have to set the drivers to HQ for quality, and set the LOD bias to clamp. That helps, but doesnt fix it. It also puts a serious hit on your frames.

this explains why i dont notice shimmering then, i have a smaller LCD (17inch) and ive run LOD clamp and HQ since day one of my purchase.

im happy with the performance, so i wont be about to go finding out some extra speed if the IQ degrades significantly
 

beggerking

Golden Member
Jan 15, 2006
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nib95

Senior member
Jan 31, 2006
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Originally posted by: beggerking
Originally posted by: lifeguard1999
In regard to the noise from the latest crop of video cards...

From Guru3d:
7600GT - 48 dB
7900GT - 50 dB
7900GTX - 44dB
X1800GTO - 52 dB
X1900XTX - 50 dB

hard to believe nv intentionally crap 7900gt with a bad cooling solution just to distinguish it from 7900gtx....
using a quadro cooler on shouldn't add that much to the production cost..

do they sell quadro coolers on the open market?


It's not about the production cost, its becasue they know everythone would instead just buy a 7900 GT and simply OC it to GTX+ speeds.
Becasue of the boards size and cooler, this makes it much harder for us to mimick GTX performance. Still, nothing an aftermarket cooler wont resolve ;)
 

RobertR1

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2004
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Shimmering is much more apparant on the Dell 2405's. My friend has a 2405 with a 7800GTX KO and it shimmer noticeably in BF2 and Source based games and he's not even sensitive to IQ. It was just that "weird" to him. My old x800xt PE shimmered like crazy on my 2405 and Chronicles of Riddick but luckily my x1900xtx and my old x1800xt show no shimmering in BF2 and Source based games which I play 90% of the time.

 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
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Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: Pantalaimon
it was always an issue to some, non-issue to others. in all, it is subjective and well-known. Obviously it isn't a big issue for the reviewers since they end up recommanding the card.. the title of this thread is pointing out only shimmering part of the article rather than the actual result of the article, in which 7900 is a good bang for the buck.
And the OP's point is not that these cards are bad. He only points out that the shimmering issue which a lot of people in this forum, including these reviewers in question, previously claimed doesn't exist has now admitted that it does exists very much noticeably. Not to the extent that it makes them not recommend the card but it does exist.

The OP's point, to me (much like shimmering is so bad on 7800's to him and X1900XT noise doesn't bother him) is to deter sales of nvidia cards. Why do you think he posted a "Hot Deal" in video, instead of "Hot Deals" forum? Because he thought it would get more coverage in here. The "deal" turned out sour anyway. A typo. He can't make this any more obvious.
Some will believe this, and others will not. Much in the way shimmering is noticeable by some and not by others. IMHO.


Uh, I dont deter sales of NV cards. I would have posted the deal if it was for a 7900GTX for $400 too. In fact, I have posted deals just like that about NV cards. Making your accusation false. And yes the deal was a typo, however, Monarch is honoring the deal to the people who ordered it before they changed it. And yes I did post it here, because its has to do with video. And the mods dont care what is posted here, as long as it gets hits. Which they made pretty clear.

And yes, as I have said many times over, not everyone notices shimmering. However, since it largely depends on the hardware (monitor) that you are using, not everyone will. As popular as 21"+ LCDs are, they are not the norm yet. And one smaller CRT's, and with the different tech, its much less noticable. Wow, I feel like I have said that a thousand times..

And as Pantalaimon said, many people flat out said it did not exist at all. Even Kyle at HardOCP said it didnt. Now they have turned a 180, and do admit it has a pretty large negative impact on gaming. My bet is, that if everyone had a chance to try a large LCD, they would notice it pretty easily. But as I said, most people dont have such a monitor.

Originally posted by: lifeguard1999
In regard to the noise from the latest crop of video cards...

From Guru3d:
7600GT - 48 dB
7900GT - 50 dB
7900GTX - 44dB
X1800GTO - 52 dB
X1900XTX - 50 dB

[/quote]

Hmm, that GT sure is loud. Why dont people make an issue out of that, when they do out of the X1900's? They're the same db.

Originally posted by: RobertR1
Shimmering is much more apparant on the Dell 2405's. My friend has a 2405 with a 7800GTX KO and it shimmer noticeably in BF2 and Source based games and he's not even sensitive to IQ. It was just that "weird" to him. My old x800xt PE shimmered like crazy on my 2405 and Chronicles of Riddick but luckily my x1900xtx and my old x1800xt show no shimmering in BF2 and Source based games which I play 90% of the time.

And thats the reason my GTX's are sold. I got a X1800XT to try out last month, and it was noticeably better IQ, without the shimmering. And add HQ AF, I was enjoying BF2 much more. Hopefully NV (and I think they will) will improve AF, and it wont be such an issue any longer.
 

moonboy403

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2004
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nobody's making a big deal out of the gt because we don't even have it yet

when we do, i'm sure people are gonna start complaining and get some third party cooling
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
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And yes, as I have said many times over, not everyone notices shimmering. However, since it largely depends on the hardware (monitor) that you are using, not everyone will. As popular as 21"+ LCDs are, they are not the norm yet. And one smaller CRT's, and with the different tech, its much less noticable. Wow, I feel like I have said that a thousand times..

I have a CRT and can easily notice it too. I think it may have more to do with the resolution than the type or size of display.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
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Originally posted by: CP5670
I have a CRT and can easily notice it too. I think it may have more to do with the resolution than the type or size of display.

Improperly focused ones will probably just blur it all out.
 

ExtremePVDman

Banned
Feb 28, 2006
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Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Originally posted by: Ackmed
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Of course it exists, otherwise it wouldn't be a subject for discussion today. I can picture the HardOCP guys going through the exact same thing we did. A bunch of guys standing around a 7900 benchmarking computer, half of them think the shimmering is horrendous, and the other half can't see it at all. Nothing has changed.

Wrong. Its all about the hardware. They did not say that some of them did not see it, both of them did. They have stated before that the hardware goes thru two editors hands. If one didnt see it, they would have said so.

You still dont want to accept the fact that with certain hardware, it is a big issue. You obviously have never used a 2405FPW or the like, and a recent NV card.

Shove the LCD in the garbage bin, where it belongs! use a CRT. Problem solved.

I do use a 21" 1800x1350 CRT and I can still see the the blood decals shimmer in CS:S, this is an nVidia problem. heh, think they'll actually try to fix it if we boycott their cards for a month?
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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MrJim, ENABLE YOUR PRIVATE MESSAGING.

If you don't I can't respond to your PMs. :)
 

Madellga

Senior member
Sep 9, 2004
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Back in October I had a thread about the X1800 v 7800 (I had the chance to try both) and I stated the shimmering as a problem. My example was playing WoW on a Dell 2405FPW, but Rollo and his band of brothers denied the issue.
Rollo even accused me of having "hidden" motives - now I know better why......

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1720840&enterthread=y&arctab=y

Later Rollo had a thread about HardOCP declaring shimmering "meaningless"

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1728417&enterthread=y&arctab=y

My reply was #8. Ironic now that HardOCP sees differently. And Rollo is posting there!!

I tried also a few weeks ago a X1900 and the result is similar to the X1800.

All cards I tried (7800/X1800/X1900) showed shimmering, but they do in different places. The Nvidia ones have issues with floor patterns, the ATIs do shimmer on walls, trees, poles, fences, etc.

I tried also different games and my decision maker was Guild Wars: ATI was worse than Nvidia - specially in the cities and near gates/fences.

Here Nvidia has something that really help, it is the transparency AA. By using it, HQ and bias lod clamp, the shimmering is 90% gone. With ATI HQ it is also good, but it lacks behind due to the better TAA implementation from Nvidia.

With standard driver settings, shimmering is worse in the 7800 family than the X1800/1900.
If properly set (HQ, Clamp, TSAA etc), 7800 is slightly better than X1800/1900.

PS: I am currently running a SLI 7800GT, my signature is outdated - for some reason I cannot update it (I tried, but it never changes after saving).



 

moonboy403

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2004
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what do you think of that joker?

needles poking in the eye???
who has more now?

i'm not trying to start a war again, but i'm just trying to say that both sides do have this shimmering issue and it's opposed to what you said about nvidia being 1000000000 times worst than ati.

but all in all, i'd still recommend the xtx over gtx in single card configuration
 

Janooo

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2005
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Originally posted by: Madellga
...

With standard driver settings, shimmering is worse in the 7800 family than the X1800/1900.
If properly set (HQ, Clamp, TSAA etc), 7800 is slightly better than X1800/1900.
...

NV can not afford to fix 'standard driver settings'. They would be losing all the benches.

 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
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^^^ Sadly, this is true. They would take a huge hit in FPS. And as HardOCP stated, its all about the benchmarks.
 

Madellga

Senior member
Sep 9, 2004
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I know there is a penalty, but I cannot notice without benchmarking.

But let's not forget that ATI X1800/1900 requires also adjustment in the driver to reduce shimmering, meaning A.I must be turned off and AF set to HQ. This also brings performance down, but I guess not as much as it is for Nvidia 7800 series.

At the end, I'd say it is a matter of personal preference: shimmering is there - you just have to decide where you (don't) like it better.

I also tend to believe that ATI offers a better IQ overall, but I picked Nvidia because shimmering on vertical surfaces (ATI) were more irritating for me than the ground (Nvidia). It was the lesser of the evils for me.

I would like Nvidia and ATI really starting addressing this issue in future drivers and hardware, as $500 cards must offer nothing less than perfection. These cards are more expensive than most monitors (20"and under) and probably the most expensive component in our computers. This is "mature" technology and should not have those issues at this time.
 

ormandj

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: Ackmed
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Of course it exists, otherwise it wouldn't be a subject for discussion today. I can picture the HardOCP guys going through the exact same thing we did. A bunch of guys standing around a 7900 benchmarking computer, half of them think the shimmering is horrendous, and the other half can't see it at all. Nothing has changed.

Wrong. Its all about the hardware. They did not say that some of them did not see it, both of them did. They have stated before that the hardware goes thru two editors hands. If one didnt see it, they would have said so.

You still dont want to accept the fact that with certain hardware, it is a big issue. You obviously have never used a 2405FPW or the like, and a recent NV card.

You really should control that temper. I have a Gateway 2850 (21" widescreen, 1680x1050@60hz) and an nvidia 7900 gt co (evga). I have no shimmering, neither can any of the 5 people I've had over see any. I do have extremely high quality HDMI cable though, and it's a short run. Please don't accuse people who don't see shimmering of not knowing what we are talking about. Just because you have an issue doesn't mean we all do. I really don't like people who accuse others of not having a clue when it's unjustified.

PS - Bolding the word "fact" when you do not provide "proof" does not make "fact" factual. Show us a video or something. (Not that I care)
 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
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My temper is fine. You may not notice it, or know what it is, but its there. Your screen size, or res may not be large enough show it enough for you to notice it. I wouldnt look for it if I were you. And I didnt accuse anyone of not having a clue. My post was to kensplayer, he has a small CRT. Obviously its not going to be nearly as noticable on that, as it is on a large LCD. He said nothing has changed, when in fact it has.

The bolded part, is a fact. Let me guess, now thats its in a real review, its still not good enough? I didnt say everyone has it, or could notice it. I said that on "certain hardware", its a big issue. Which is the truth. I would bet money if anyone who claims shimmering is not there, that if you were to come over and see my 24" LCD, and GTX's, you could easily see it. Its not like I have to go looking for it. In fact, I try *not* to look for it. But its so obvious, I cant.

There are many videos of it out there. Ive posted a few on these forums, and the usual suspects just deny them still. And you do care, or you wouldnt have asked for one.
 

yacoub

Golden Member
May 24, 2005
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Originally posted by: beggerking
Originally posted by: crazydingo
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Of course it exists, otherwise it wouldn't be a subject for discussion today. I can picture the HardOCP guys going through the exact same thing we did. A bunch of guys standing around a 7900 benchmarking computer, half of them think the shimmering is horrendous, and the other half can't see it at all. Nothing has changed. And the shimmering wasn't bad enough to stop them from recommending the cards. You don't find that a bit strange?
You missed the whole point probably. Didnt the same guys (Brent & Kyle) "announce" that shimmering was non-existant? Maybe more people should put down their green and red glasses. :D

you missed the whole point of the review. Its about whether 7900 is a good / bad card, not about shimmering. ...

And you're missing the whole point of this thread, but that's not surprising considering your historic inability to grasp even simple concepts.

Ackmed: I'm sure you're not in the least bit surprised at the responses your intial post has generated:

*Attempts to derail and misdirect
*Inability to comprehend your simple post
*Reactionary flaming from fanboys on both extremes
*Attempts to label you as angry (wtf was that "temper" comment about?? honestly...) when you're just verifying for those in denial that the problem actually exists.

Very typical around here.
 

ormandj

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: Ackmed
My temper is fine. You may not notice it, or know what it is, but its there. Your screen size, or res may not be large enough show it enough for you to notice it. I wouldnt look for it if I were you. And I didnt accuse anyone of not having a clue. My post was to kensplayer, he has a small CRT. Obviously its not going to be nearly as noticable on that, as it is on a large LCD. He said nothing has changed, when in fact it has.

The bolded part, is a fact. Let me guess, now thats its in a real review, its still not good enough? I didnt say everyone has it, or could notice it. I said that on "certain hardware", its a big issue. Which is the truth. I would bet money if anyone who claims shimmering is not there, that if you were to come over and see my 24" LCD, and GTX's, you could easily see it. Its not like I have to go looking for it. In fact, I try *not* to look for it. But its so obvious, I cant.

There are many videos of it out there. Ive posted a few on these forums, and the usual suspects just deny them still. And you do care, or you wouldnt have asked for one.

Ok, maybe you missed my post (obviously.)

"My temper is fine. You may not notice it, or know what it is, but its there." - 5 people say otherwise.

"Your screen size, or res may not be large enough show it enough for you to notice it." - I told you it's a 21" LCD, 1680x1050. How much larger do I need? I have a 30" Apple Cinema I can hook up just to satisfy you.

"Let me guess, now thats its in a real review, its still not good enough?" - I can write a "real" review too. That doesn't mean it's factual.

Granted, I just noticed the "on certain hardware" clause in your post, but the way you are writing is more "these cards are *bleeped* up." Maybe with specific hardware (not mine, I just put the 30" cinema on, and I nor my friends *still* do not see it.) I would just suggest you stop over-generalizing and take a far less negative tone when dealing with people on the internet. You'll get a lot further.

The issue I have with your "fact" claiming, is it isn't fact. It might be the case with Dell 2405's (as it seems 99% of the people with problems have them) and Nvidia cards there is an issue, but I'm telling you, I do *not* have shimmering, both on a 21" and 30" lcd. I know what I'm looking for, I've seen shimmering on low quality lcds before. My friends aren't blind either, if 5 people can't see it then either we're all really lucky to be shimmering-blind, or it isn't occuring with my hardware.

Nothing you've said makes it some kind of "fact" though. Maybe a niche incompatibility issue, or something else (are you a HW engineer? I'm not - I couldn't begin to tell you the *Real* cause of your problems.)

If it's that bad, you should have returned your card. Nvidia isn't going to listen until they lose money. The only way they'll lose money is if people quit buying their stuff. If enough people had this horrendus shimmering that the vocal minority are preaching about, and Nvidia was losing sales, they'd fix it (whatever it is.) It just seems to be a niche thing, isolated to gamers on (from what I've mostly read about the issue) larger Dell LCDs. I doubt that makes it of financial importances to Nvidia to redesign hardware (if it's a HW issue) in the immediate future.
 

Madellga

Senior member
Sep 9, 2004
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Originally posted by: yacoub
Originally posted by: beggerking
Originally posted by: crazydingo
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Of course it exists, otherwise it wouldn't be a subject for discussion today. I can picture the HardOCP guys going through the exact same thing we did. A bunch of guys standing around a 7900 benchmarking computer, half of them think the shimmering is horrendous, and the other half can't see it at all. Nothing has changed. And the shimmering wasn't bad enough to stop them from recommending the cards. You don't find that a bit strange?
You missed the whole point probably. Didnt the same guys (Brent & Kyle) "announce" that shimmering was non-existant? Maybe more people should put down their green and red glasses. :D

you missed the whole point of the review. Its about whether 7900 is a good / bad card, not about shimmering. ...

And you're missing the whole point of this thread, but that's not surprising considering your historic inability to grasp even simple concepts.

Ackmed: I'm sure you're not in the least bit surprised at the responses your intial post has generated:

*Attempts to derail and misdirect
*Inability to comprehend your simple post
*Reactionary flaming from fanboys on both extremes
*Attempts to label you as angry (wtf was that "temper" comment about?? honestly...) when you're just verifying for those in denial that the problem actually exists.

Very typical around here.

There will always be people like that. That's the human nature and there's lot of different types....

Even so, much better without the MAL (Master of All Lies). We have normal fights now, not "professional" ones.

 

ormandj

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: yacoub

And you're missing the whole point of this thread, but that's not surprising considering your historic inability to grasp even simple concepts.

Ackmed: I'm sure you're not in the least bit surprised at the responses your intial post has generated:

*Attempts to derail and misdirect
*Inability to comprehend your simple post
*Reactionary flaming from fanboys on both extremes
*Attempts to label you as angry (wtf was that "temper" comment about?? honestly...) when you're just verifying for those in denial that the problem actually exists.

Very typical around here.

I suppose commentary like yours should be viewed as kind, friendly, and open? Next time your boss says something to you, say "wtf" in it's expanded form then tell him he's in denial and see his reaction.

I'm no fanboy, I've got far more ATI cards than I have Nvidia. I just don't like being told that something is fact, when it isn't. I certainly don't like the general tone of a lot of the posts here (both pro-shimmering and visa versa.) Just because I express my distaste for it earns me a "wtf?" You wonder why I respond with a comment about temper. I was just trying to diffuse what seems like angst and defensiveness over an *online* thread. Not insult. You, on the other hand, are making broad generalizations and in general acting as an ass. Please don't start junior high mud slinging at me, ok? I'm just trying to get this thread to be more civil, and I'm expressing my experience with this so called "shimmering." You have no right to tell me I cannot, nor that it DOES exist and I'm just too blind/ignorant/whatever to see it. It doesn't exist on my system/setup. Sorry.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,660
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For those of you who can't see it, it's most easily noticeable when you have simple level geometry, a relatively large room and a high resolution grid-like texture (like square tiles) on the floor. You'll probably see it if you can find an area in a game like that.

I seem to remember that HL2 had some places like that, among relatively modern games. Don't remember exactly where though. Several older games like Deus Ex and Jedi Academy also have areas like this.
 

ArchAngel777

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
5,223
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Not sure why everyone is telling Ackmed to calm down. He is just pointing out the hypocrisy of many in here. If you think Ackmed is losing his "temper" I think you have a lot to learn about his posting style. I have rarely seen him him lose his temper, if at all. Of course, it is normally just a way for people to discredit others by saying "Take a chill pill!" or "Calm down dude!!!" as if he wasn't? Lame attempt to discredit his posts with that junk.

Stick to the facts people...