Serviceman goes on shooting spree in Afghanistan.

[dabuddha]

It's a completely archaic "code of conduct," and I say that as an experienced prosecutor. The death penalty does nothing more than satisfy the blood lust of the survivors. I sure as hell don't want our justice system hurried just to rise up to the expectations of people who stone women to death for being raped. (To be clear, I do not in any way mean to blame the victims of this senseless tragedy - I just don't want us to sink to the level of Afghani justice just to make Afghanis feel better.)

I don't think this incident was in any way done in the name of the US - it was the actions of a lone nutcase.

Completely and unequivocally wrong.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Completely and unequivocally wrong.

Can you do better?

I know you can't

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Completely and unequivocally wrong.

In your opinion. Not in mine. Functionally the death penalty is an astronomically expensive form of punishment that does nothing to deter crime. I think it's barbaric and I don't see the point.

 

[Nebor]

I know most American don't care what Afghan people think or feel. But if we want to continue the operations in Afghan, we better care. If not, might as well just get out now and don't waste anymore time, effort, life and tax payer money.

The problem is, even most of those charged with working closely with Afghans in order to transition control of the country over to them don't care. I won't go into detail, but my impression of the Army's reaction to this event is not positive. And after the recent rash of green on blue killings, our advising\partner relationship is taking a very dark turn. New rules, procedures and contingencies are being put into place that will put more distance and distrust between us and our Afghan partners than ever.

 

[Nebor]

In your opinion. Not in mine. Functionally the death penalty is an astronomically expensive form of punishment that does nothing to deter crime. I think it's barbaric and I don't see the point.

I agree with everything you've posted in this thread. :thumbsup:

 

[dabuddha]

Can you do better?

I know you can't

This isn't a thread about the death penalty but I will point out that there are way too many variables involved to just break it down to a single number. On another note, the way the people are executed is part of the problem too. We need fucking firing squads and public hangings again. Regardless, let's not steer this thread OT.

 

[dabuddha]

In your opinion. Not in mine. Functionally the death penalty is an astronomically expensive form of punishment that does nothing to deter crime. I think it's barbaric and I don't see the point.

The reason it's so expensive is cause of all the lawyers and the fucked up laws in this country. Politicians and lawyers have been slowly bringing our great country down into a shithole.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Justice delayed is justice denied.
Only a lawyer would think that 2 years and 4 months and counting is a reasonable amount of time for a trial.

I didn't say the delay was a good thing - I just said this case should not be treated differently due to political sensibilities.

The irony is that the position I'm taking is clearly the more conservative one, and the conservatives in this thread (like you) who don't know anything about criminal justice and/or the military are the ones who are jumping down my throat. I have served as a military prosecutor in a combat zone. I have sent people to prison for decades and decades (and in one instance, for life).

If you think we should subject our service members to differing standards of justice to placate other nations (including our enemies), I respectfully disagree because it's too important to keep things consistent and safe for our troops. No smart young man or woman is going to join any employer who will send him overseas (often to third world Muslim theocracies), have him kill people and break things for a living, then let him be subjected to whatever arcane, stone-age system of "justice" the locals prefer.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

This isn't a thread about the death penalty but I will point out that there are way too many variables involved to just break it down to a single number. On another note, the way the people are executed is part of the problem too. We need fucking firing squads and public hangings again. Regardless, let's not steer this thread OT.

So you want America to behave like Sudan or Yemen, because that's working so well for them? Great thinking! Any other "criminal justice" initiatives you would like to push for? They like honor killings too - I assume that appeals to you as well?

 

[dabuddha]

So you want America to behave like Sudan or Yemen, because that's working so well for them? Great thinking! Any other "criminal justice" initiatives you would like to push for? They like honor killings too - I assume that appeals to you as well?

You know that the world isn't only black and white, right? You don't have to go from one extreme to another.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

You know that the world isn't only black and white, right? You don't have to go from one extreme to another.

You're the one calling for public hangings. That's about as stupidly extreme as anything I've ever read on this board that was not written by spidey07.

 

[ichy]

In your opinion. Not in mine. Functionally the death penalty is an astronomically expensive form of punishment that does nothing to deter crime. I think it's barbaric and I don't see the point.

The death penalty as it is applied in the US today is expensive and not a deterrent. The expense is because of endless appeals that for the most part do nothing to protect the innocent, and the failure to deter is probably caused by the fact that only a tiny fraction of murderers ever face the DP.

 

[dabuddha]

You're the one calling for public hangings. That's about as stupidly extreme as anything I've ever read on this board that was not written by spidey07.

Yes I'm sure you'd rather wasted millions of taxpayer dollars and many years in court instead. As long as the lawyers get paid, it's all good I suppose.

 

[Nebor]

I didn't say the delay was a good thing - I just said this case should not be treated differently due to political sensibilities.

The irony is that the position I'm taking is clearly the more conservative one, and the conservatives in this thread (like you) who don't know anything about criminal justice and/or the military are the ones who are jumping down my throat. I have served as a military prosecutor in a combat zone. I have sent people to prison for decades and decades (and in one instance, for life).

If you think we should subject our service members to differing standards of justice to placate other nations (including our enemies), I respectfully disagree because it's too important to keep things consistent and safe for our troops. No smart young man or woman is going to join any employer who will send him overseas (often to third world Muslim theocracies), have him kill people and break things for a living, then let him be subjected to whatever arcane, stone-age system of "justice" the locals prefer.

Agreed, and I think this also plays heavily into the military's unwillingness to exercise the death penalty at all. If you execute soldiers (even mass murderers) you send the message that if the enemy doesn't kill you, your own country will.

 

[dabuddha]

Agreed, and I think this also plays heavily into the military's unwillingness to exercise the death penalty at all. If you execute soldiers (even mass murderers) you send the message that if the enemy doesn't kill you, your own country will.

Really? How about the message that if you go and murder innocent children just because you felt like it, you will be executed (and rightfully so).

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Yes I'm sure you'd rather wasted millions of taxpayer dollars and many years in court instead. As long as the lawyers get paid, it's all good I suppose.

No, that's exactly what I am trying to prevent. The death penalty is ruinously expensive and I think the money is wasted. Normally the lawyers in a court-martial are salaried active-duty military officers (which is what I was, as a military prosecutor and defense attorney), so it's not as though there is some profit motive in stringing these things out. Of course, you'd know that if you had ever served in uniform - I gather you have not.

For that matter, in most instances criminal defendants in a civilian context are represented by public defenders. In the one major criminal case I have handled as a civilian attorney, my mother (a retired judge) and I handled a first-degree murder case pro bono (free of charge). Our client was found not guilty by reason of mental illness. Any murder case is a fairly costly undertaking but fortunately my partners agreed it was the right thing to do, and we did it. No profit motive there either - my firm lost tens of thousands of dollars worth of my time. About all we got out of it was some publicity which many commercial litigation firms like mine would not want - our client was a man who drowned his son, so the media coverage of our winning his case was not necessarily something every small civil litigation firm would find attractive.

I know it's easy to demonize lawyers, but in reality most of the delay in the criminal justice system relates to underfunding of courts, prosecutors, and, most of all (at least in MN, where I practice) public defenders.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Execution is the easy way out.

 

[Ninjahedge]

The reason it's so expensive is cause of all the lawyers and the fucked up laws in this country. Politicians and lawyers have been slowly bringing our great country down into a shithole.

When our prosecutors become clairvoyant then we can get rid of the "lawyers and fucked up laws" that prevent a rushed trial.

The biggest danger in these things is when you get a rushed trial, convict and kill someone that turns out NOT to be the real perp. You sacrifice an innocent to "please the masses". It has happened MANY times in the past, and has backfired on occasion.



It is just a shame that these Afghans are so easily swayed, but hunger and fear have a way of doing that.

 

[monovillage]

I didn't say the delay was a good thing - I just said this case should not be treated differently due to political sensibilities.

The irony is that the position I'm taking is clearly the more conservative one, and the conservatives in this thread (like you) who don't know anything about criminal justice and/or the military are the ones who are jumping down my throat. I have served as a military prosecutor in a combat zone. I have sent people to prison for decades and decades (and in one instance, for life).

If you think we should subject our service members to differing standards of justice to placate other nations (including our enemies), I respectfully disagree because it's too important to keep things consistent and safe for our troops. No smart young man or woman is going to join any employer who will send him overseas (often to third world Muslim theocracies), have him kill people and break things for a living, then let him be subjected to whatever arcane, stone-age system of "justice" the locals prefer.

I think our service members should be subject to the U.S. Uniform Code of Military Justice and he should be tried in country. No more, no less.

 

[Darwin333]

I'm not sure what the proper military regulations would be, but if possible i'd like to see this tried in public or with observers in Afghanistan and if he's found guilty to be executed with victims families as observers in Afghanistan.

Hell, I would let the Afghans pull the trigger.

 

[cybrsage]

In your opinion. Not in mine. Functionally the death penalty is an astronomically expensive form of punishment that does nothing to deter crime. I think it's barbaric and I don't see the point.

I am glad it is more expensive than prison to prevent its use as a money saving method.

It is actually FAR more barbaric to lock someone away in prison for life with all we know that goes on in there. To remove all hope of ever having a normal life again, to be forever doomed to suffer in a cage.

The death penalty should not be used lightly, and its only true purpose is to provide justice. When someone removes the life of another on purpose, that person should no longer have the privelege of being alive himself. He gave up that right with the wrongeful and purposeful removal of life from another.

Execution is not barbaric, it is just.

 

[cybrsage]

No smart young man or woman is going to join any employer who will send him overseas (often to third world Muslim theocracies), have him kill people and break things for a living, then let him be subjected to whatever arcane, stone-age system of "justice" the locals prefer.

Seriously? You think our soldiers are thinking "whew, I am glad the UCMJ exists so I can go out and murder children in homes"?

Seriously? We are not talking about women driving cars or such, we are talking about acts which EVERYONE knows is both illegal AND horrifyingly wrong. If he did this act inside the US, he would most likely be executed for it. Why should the fact that he did it in another country mean he should be spared that fate?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Seriously? You think our soldiers are thinking "whew, I am glad the UCMJ exists so I can go out and murder children in homes"?

Seriously? We are not talking about women driving cars or such, we are talking about acts which EVERYONE knows is both illegal AND horrifyingly wrong. If he did this act inside the US, he would most likely be executed for it. Why should the fact that he did it in another country mean he should be spared that fate?

That is not what I said, and you are either willfully contorting what I said or you are so ignorant of what I'm talking about that you should perhaps refrain from commenting.

What is important is consistency, and not allowing US service members to be tried under a varying array of foreign laws, or under our system, to foreign standards. Consistency and predictability are critical components of a justice system which applies to service members in a host of different deployed environments.

I am certainly not saying this guy should be subjected to different treatment than someone who commits a similar crime in the US - just the opposite. He will (and should, in my view) be treated essentially the same as any service member who committed a similar spree killing here - the Fort Hood one is the most obvious example and probably the most similar crime in the annals of American military justice.

As it happens, while it is likely both men will (unless a mental illness defense is successful) be sentenced to either life without parole or death, it is not likely either will be executed. The last execution of a military prisoner in the US was in 1961, although there are a (small) number of men on death row.

It is likely the case that both the Afghanistan shooter and Malik Nadal Hasan will spend the rest of their lives at Fort Leavenworth, and die of natural causes in prison. Personally I am fine with that, though reasonable minds can differ. What I would not be fine with is accelerating the execution of the Afghanistan shooter for political reasons. Fortunately there are a host of automatic protections in the UCMJ which would make such an endeavor much more difficult (as I said earlier in this thread, I think the UCMJ is, in aggregate, the most evolved, thoughtful criminal justice system on earth).

I find this particular crime horrifying, but I guess part of the reason I am not so anxious to see the shooter executed is that it seems fairly clear to me that this shooting would never have occurred without a lot of combat stress. People in their 30s who are firing on all cylinders mentally don't just go on killing sprees like this one, and it seems very likely that much of the reason this guy snapped was that he voluntarily put himself in a highly stressful situation in defense of his country. That in no way excuses his actions, nor does it bring any comfort to his victims, of course. I just doubt very seriously that this was Ted Bundy-style killing for pleasure - I fully expect we will learn that the shooter was floridly mentally ill (there are reports he had been treated for a traumatic brain injury, albeit not a severe one) and/or suffering from combat-related PTSD. I understand people's bloodlust about this case but I don't share it. I don't think we should be rushing to execute him.

 

[cybrsage]

That is not what I said, and you are either willfully contorting what I said or you are so ignorant of what I'm talking about that you should perhaps refrain from commenting.

What is important is consistency, and not allowing US service members to be tried under a varying array of foreign laws, or under our system, to foreign standards. Consistency and predictability are critical components of a justice system which applies to service members in a host of different deployed environments.

I am certainly not saying this guy should be subjected to different treatment than someone who commits a similar crime in the US - just the opposite. He will (and should, in my view) be treated essentially the same as any service member who committed a similar spree killing here - the Fort Hood one is the most obvious example and probably the most similar crime in the annals of American military justice.

Then I do not understand why you wrote what you did. If he did this in the US (went out and slaughtered several civilian familites), he would most likely be executed for his crimes.

As it happens, while it is likely both men will (unless a mental illness defense is successful) be sentenced to either life without parole or death, it is not likely either will be executed. The last execution of a military prisoner in the US was in 1961, although there are a (small) number of men on death row.

The difference is in who was killed. The death penalty is reserved for the worst murders - and slaughtering children certainly fits into that.

It is likely the case that both the Afghanistan shooter and Malik Nadal Hasan will spend the rest of their lives at Fort Leavenworth, and die of natural causes in prison. Personally I am fine with that, though reasonable minds can differ. What I would not be fine with is accelerating the execution of the Afghanistan shooter for political reasons. Fortunately there are a host of automatic protections in the UCMJ which would make such an endeavor much more difficult (as I said earlier in this thread, I think the UCMJ is, in aggregate, the most evolved, thoughtful criminal justice system on earth).

I do agree with you on the UCMJ, it is a very fine bit of work. I do respect your opinion, even though I disagree with it. The main reason I say he should be executed is because anyone else doing such a thing inside the US would be executed for it (depending on the state in which it was done, of course).

 

[ichy]

I know it's easy to demonize lawyers, but in reality most of the delay in the criminal justice system relates to underfunding of courts, prosecutors, and, most of all (at least in MN, where I practice) public defenders.

It also has to do with the fact that a criminal trial in the United States has become the most expensive and cumbersome fact-finding mechanism in human history. The irony is that this system which is supposed to protect defendants has become so slow-moving that our system funnels the vast majority of cases into plea-bargains. I know that in theory everyone has a right to a trial, but in reality the system would collapse if every defendant insisted on going to trial.