SCOTUS hearing on Roe V Wade

[dank69]

I have little idea why I said what I said. It was what came to mind immediately on reading your post. Since I said it to you maybe you can tell me what it meant if anything. Perhaps, thinking about it a bit, we won't know till the soldier arrives for his train.

It doesn't mean anything to me in this context. I can't figure out a single way it applies to what I said.

 

[Moonbeam]

It doesn't mean anything to me in this context. I can't figure out a single way it applies to what I said.

Yet they don't see that Democrats have not been given the power to do anything for the last 40 years. Something that is plain as day. Anyone complaining that Democrats haven't done enough can go fuck the same goat as conservatives and "independents."

Maybe the conservatives and independents will be knocking off more hats than your own and you don't yet see how it's all going to work out like the Mulla did. Maybe a black swan event? Perhaps my mind was trying to suggest that not knowing anything, something unexpected might be expected.

 

[HomerJS]

Republicans: The size of the Supreme Court is sacrosanct.

Also Republicans: We will not confirm Supreme Court justices for Democratic presidents because that is bad for us.

If Hillary won in 2016 Mitch threatened not to approve any of her SCOTUS nominees. When will Dems learn they need to fight as dirty as the GOP?

 

[dank69]

Yet they don't see that Democrats have not been given the power to do anything for the last 40 years. Something that is plain as day. Anyone complaining that Democrats haven't done enough can go fuck the same goat as conservatives and "independents."

Maybe the conservatives and independents will be knocking off more hats than your own and you don't yet see how it's all going to work out like the Mulla did. Maybe a black swan event? Perhaps my mind was trying to suggest that not knowing anything, something unexpected might be expected.

But I don't want them all to fucking die because much like death is an inappropriate punishment for knocking off a hat it is also inappropriate for not overcoming our programming. I see the death coming though. I mean, we all see it every day as they all die from covid but that isn't enough to overcome the rigged system. Now we have to rely on the kindness of the universe. Unfortunately, in most cases, the universe is far from kind. It's like playing Russian roulette with 5 chambers loaded. Luck runs out for many people every day. We have the tools and the experience and the data to live in a fucking paradise yet we are forced to live in a hellscape of our own creation. And it takes a lot of effort to maintain that hellscape.

 

[Fenixgoon]

If Hillary won in 2016 Mitch threatened not to approve any of her SCOTUS nominees. When will Dems learn they need to fight as dirty as the GOP?

Dirtier, actually.
I can't remember where I read it, but as part of game theory, when someone begins cheating at the game (and doesn't care), the best way to get them back to playing within the rules is to actually cheat worse than they did. Then they say "hey, that's not fair" - no shit it isn't, so either play by the rules or don't play.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Dirtier, actually.
I can't remember where I read it, but as part of game theory, when someone begins cheating at the game (and doesn't care), the best way to get them back to playing within the rules is to actually cheat worse than they did. Then they say "hey, that's not fair" - no shit it isn't, so either play by the rules or don't play.

The GOP is literally running this game already. Their voters think the Dem's have been cheating all along, facts be damned.

 

[Ajay]

I'm more in favor of no one but the woman having a right to her own person. I mean sure, if we're going to do this then why not allow rape but counsel them afterwards to be kind?

If you take away this right, for any reason you have made up that absolutely does not exist in reality, and absolutely not in the Bible where it's thoroughly explained that life begins with the first breath, then women are now forced against their will to give up the right to their own body.

My point was that not all Christians have the same have the same perspective on the abortion issue. We are not all alike. The social and moral teachings of the Catholic Church require us to care as much for the Mother and fetus/child before and after birth. Any Catholic who doesn’t adhere to this teaching is in need of repentance.

I am surprised that you responded to my post, as you are convinced that I and my like have no basis for our position in reality. If I thought that of you, I’d probably just ignore you.

 

[Moonbeam]

But I don't want them all to fucking die because much like death is an inappropriate punishment for knocking off a hat it is also inappropriate for not overcoming our programming. I see the death coming though. I mean, we all see it every day as they all die from covid but that isn't enough to overcome the rigged system. Now we have to rely on the kindness of the universe. Unfortunately, in most cases, the universe is far from kind. It's like playing Russian roulette with 5 chambers loaded. Luck runs out for many people every day. We have the tools and the experience and the data to live in a fucking paradise yet we are forced to live in a hellscape of our own creation. And it takes a lot of effort to maintain that hellscape.

I can only say that for me the story seems to ride high in psyche because of the terrible shock it gave me in the reading. A fucking kid dies because of a knocked off hat???? It comes to mind rather often comparatively, if from time to time. I love you dank.

I read another strange thing that comes to mind here. It is that the soul can't really yearn for that which isn't actually possible. That is why I think that what you wish is the Lord's Prayer, on earth as it is in heaven. You yearn for it because it is real. I believe we look for heaven to manifest out there, but it only does so when first it manifests within. I use religious world to express this as they are the only analogies I can think of but this truth, in my opinion, is only religious because it is talked about there.

 

[K1052]

Evangelicals also don't like contraceptives. They were very much in favor when the court allowed employers to exempt themselves from the ACA contraceptive access mandate when Trump killed it

Also I expect they are about to become highly conflated with medicated abortions which are surging in demand due to the TX law.

As I was saying...

 

[fskimospy]

As I was saying...


View attachment 53758

My 'favorite' part of that case is that medical experts kept telling them they were wrong but because they decided their religious belief told them medically wrong things that's all that mattered.

I'm genuinely unsure what the limiting principle here is as SCOTUS' stance was 'whatever you claim to believe we must accept as true'. Like what if I think red traffic lights are the taking of a human life?

 

[K1052]

My 'favorite' part of that case is that medical experts kept telling them they were wrong but because they decided their religious belief told them medically wrong things that's all that mattered.

I'm genuinely unsure what the limiting principle here is as SCOTUS' stance was 'whatever you claim to believe we must accept as true'. Like what if I think red traffic lights are the taking of a human life?

If you simply decide the facts are unknowable or that your institution is, conveniently for your political goals, not in a position to validate them you can do whatever you want. Which is what's happening.

I think America is going to see some super wild stuff from this court.

 

[ivwshane]

When you make religious exemptions, you are infact making laws with respect to an establishment of religion. How these exemptions aren’t ruled unconstitutional is beyond me, ok not really but it is sickening.

 

[trenchfoot]

The Repub leadership have managed to dumb down their working class members and have convinced them that their own personal concerns must be subservient to the needs of their leaders, that their propagandized emotional needs derived from being constantly bombarded by incessant lies and hoax conspiracy theories must replace their common sense and situational awareness in order for "their way of life" to survive these nebulously vague, obviously contrived and easily rebuked imaginary threats they've been conditioned to believe are real.

This is the state of mind millions of Repubs have been scammed into, that imaginary threats are real and that threat is directly attributable to their neighbors that are wishing them to cease to exist, direct family members included.

All this in order for their leaders to accomplish their personal dreams of leveraging their positions of power into more personal wealth. Wealth begets power, increased power begets more wealth. That's the game their leaders are playing and they've managed to convince their enraptured supporters to sacrifice themselves for the needs of their aristocrat class.

 

[Brainonska511]

I'm genuinely unsure what the limiting principle here is as SCOTUS' stance was 'whatever you claim to believe we must accept as true'. Like what if I think red traffic lights are the taking of a human life?

In your red light case, you'd be a marginal group that the SCOTUS would decide that the government could crush like a bug.

 

[Pohemi]

Maybe the conservatives and independents will be knocking off more hats than your own and you don't yet see how it's all going to work out like the Mulla did. Maybe a black swan event? Perhaps my mind was trying to suggest that not knowing anything, something unexpected might be expected.

Sometimes you make statements that actually apply very well to the topic at hand, and offer seemingly genuine and valuable wisdom. And then other times, you make statements that make little sense in ANY context, much less the one being currently discussed.

The comment I quoted from you is a good example of the latter. What the fuck are you talking about, here? Because it seems like rambling, more so than typical from you.

 

[pmv]

When you make religious exemptions, you are infact making laws with respect to an establishment of religion. How these exemptions aren’t ruled unconstitutional is being me, ok not really but it is sickening.

The trouble with "religious exemptions", it seems to me, is that it means the state, and the legal system, has to make official rulings declaring what are and are not essential tenets of a given religion. It means the state is effectively _defining_ a religion.

 

[fskimospy]

The trouble with "religious exemptions", it seems to me, is that it means the state, and the legal system, has to make official rulings declaring what are and are not essential tenets of a given religion. It means the state is effectively _defining_ a religion.

The US has gotten around this problem by saying the state is not allowed to question what someone describes as their religious belief.

Now if you're saying to yourself 'well then it sounds like people can opt out of any laws they feel like by saying it's a religious problem' then yes, you have recognized the problem with this solution.

 

[HomerJS]

The US has gotten around this problem by saying the state is not allowed to question what someone describes as their religious belief.

Now if you're saying to yourself 'well then it sounds like people can opt out of any laws they feel like by saying it's a religious problem' then yes, you have recognized the problem with this solution.

Not true. Just ask the Rastafarians

 

[fskimospy]

Not true. Just ask the Rastafarians

US v. Ballard established this and to the best of my knowledge it stands today.

To me the issue isn’t that courts rule for or against people based on the sincerity of their beliefs, they just clearly privilege some religions over others.

 

[hal2kilo]

Not true. Just ask the Rastafarians

Good point.

 

[HomerJS]

US v. Ballard established this and to the best of my knowledge it stands today.

To me the issue isn’t that courts rule for or against people based on the sincerity of their beliefs, they just clearly privilege some religions over others.

The courts and conservatives. They only want freedom of religion for Christians

 

[Ajay]

When you make religious exemptions, you are infact making laws with respect to an establishment of religion. How these exemptions aren’t ruled unconstitutional is beyond me, ok not really but it is sickening.

Seems more complicate, because there are two rights, regarding religion. On of individual's rights to free exercise and one of the government's right to forestall religious entanglements regarding itself.

The Free Exercise Clause reserves the right of American citizens to accept any religious belief and engage in religious rituals. Free-exercise clauses of state constitutions which protected religious “[o]pinion, expression of opinion, and practice were all expressly protected” by the Free Exercise Clause.[1] The Clause protects not just religious beliefs but actions made on behalf of those beliefs. More importantly, the wording of state constitutions suggest that “free exercise envisions religiously compelled exemptions from at least some generally applicable laws.”[2] The Free Exercise Clause not only protects religious belief and expression; it also seems to allow for violation of laws, as long as that violation is made for religious reasons. In the terms of economic theory, the Free Exercise Clause promotes a free religious market by precluding taxation of religious activities by minority sects.[3]

Constitutional scholars and even Supreme Court opinions have contended that the two religion clauses are in conflict. E.g., Thomas v. Review Board, 450 U.S. 707 (1981). As mentioned previously, the Free Exercise Clause implies special accommodation of religious ideas and actions, even to the point of exemptions to generally applicable laws. Such a special benefit seems to violate the neutrality between “religion and non-religion” mandated by the Establishment Clause. McConnell explains:
If there is a constitutional requirement for accommodation of religious conduct, it will most likely be found in the Free Exercise Clause. Some say, though, that it is a violation of the Establishment Clause for the government to give any special benefit or recognition of religion. In that case, we have a First Amendment in conflict with itself—the Establishment Clause forbidding what the Free Exercise Clause requires.[4]

Historically, the Supreme Court has been inconsistent in dealing with this problem. At various times, the Court has either applied a broad or narrow application of the clause.
When the First Amendment was drafted, it applied only to the U.S. Congress. As such, state and local governments could abridge the Free Exercise Clause as long as there was no similar provision in the state constitution. In 1940, the Supreme Court held in Cantwell v. Connecticut that, due to the Fourteenth Amendment, the Free Exercise Clause is enforceable against state and local governments (this act of using the Fourteenth Amendment as the vehicle through which the Court applies the Bill of Rights to the states is also known as the Incorporation Doctrine).

Free Exercise Clause

www.law.cornell.edu

< IANAL >

 

[ivwshane]

Seems more complicate, because there are two rights, regarding religion. On of individual's rights to free exercise and one of the government's right to forestall religious entanglements regarding itself.

Free Exercise Clause

www.law.cornell.edu

< IANAL >

Government restricting you from practicing your faith is one thing but laws that apply to everyone and interferes with your beliefs is entirely different.

 

[Ajay]

Government restricting you from practicing your faith is one thing but laws that apply to everyone and interferes with your beliefs is entirely different.

Okay then. Don't read what I posted in the quote and just say whatever you want to. But from what I read, and posted a quick summary from from LII, is that there are sometimes points of contention between these two requirements (as there almost always are - this is why we have a SCOTUS!). You made a blanket statement. I'm just saying that such a statement is simplistic. That's all.

 

[Moonbeam]

Sometimes you make statements that actually apply very well to the topic at hand, and offer seemingly genuine and valuable wisdom. And then other times, you make statements that make little sense in ANY context, much less the one being currently discussed.

The comment I quoted from you is a good example of the latter. What the fuck are you talking about, here? Because it seems like rambling, more so than typical from you.

If you simply decide the facts are unknowable or that your institution is, conveniently for your political goals, not in a position to validate them you can do whatever you want. Which is what's happening.

I think America is going to see some super wild stuff from this court.

Maybe I can answer the first quote with the second. I believe the second quote, the one that says 'this is what is happening' IS what is happening. So some of us think we know what is happening and beyond that know it emphatically. No amount of contrary argument will change our minds. This is where I am on the Supreme Court, more sure that Roe should stand than any any anti abortionist will ever be able to match in certainty otherwise, but only, naturally, in my opinion.

OK, but two questions, So what and what now? Of what possible importance to the world is my certainty. Does it have any effect. Does it change anything, does it mean that women who will be getting illegal abortions in dark places are going to feel better because I have pity for them. As I see it, me and my certainty are absolutely useless in terms of any large scale effect. So what do I feel, I feel murderous rage at the the damage done in the world by the imbecilic certainty of this so called pro life religious belief. And if I have any other moral principles I believe to the point of certainty it is that all evil in the world is the result of people acting out of their own personal certainty. I am the pro lifer hiding outside the clinic with a rifle in my hand waiting for the abortion doctor to enter. The only difference is that I am morally bound never to shoot. But inside, what a fucking mess.

So the answer to 'so what' is so nothing. I have to live in a hellish world built by the insanity of others. And all that hell is created by the sense that what I feel is important, that I should not have to so suffer. A just reward, no, for the self important! I note right now my cat has bigger concerns that take up her whole attention, watching a squirrel dancing on the grass looking for olives that have fallen their during the night. In a galaxy far away I wonder what issues are in the headlines today.

What now then? How does one act in the face of impotence and as a person who has broken through the limits of rage, one who knows the suffering and grief that lies behind it. To be or not to be. Tears in the rain, life and love all washed away. A little boy and his dead puppy hit by a car in the street. The moving finger writes our fate and not one word of it can be changed.

We walk in the valley of the shadow of death, or perhaps a world full of people with scars, deeply wounded but healed over on the surface. How do we find comfort there. Can we truly heal? The answer is so profoundly simple and easy.

Just look at what doesn't work. Basically for those of faith what does not work is doubt and for those of doubt what does not work is faith. So chose. Ah but we really can't. If there is anything obvious about the faithful is that they are full of doubt and the obvious thing about doubters is that they do not doubt. The only escape is a miraculous transformation of consciousness via grace and that can happen when either faith or doubt ceases to exist, the surrender of the self to fate. Either you become the beloved or the beloved becomes you. There is only love.

You can't wear two hats but you can go without one. The need to control makes it difficult to surrender. The need to control is only the need not to feel the pain we already feel. We the fucked spend our lives denying and trying not to know we are fucked. And you want me to make sense. No. You to your world of certainty and me to what ever madness I can muster. We were fucked because of our capacity to love. We were fucked because we are blessed. To know it will mean to forgive.

If you need a reminder to know how fucked you are get a wife.