Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
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There's NATO, which is a brilliant concept. Putin can nibble, maybe, but he's flanked by NATO and he's fully aware that he doesn't dare attack a NATO nation. He said his concern was UK getting into NATO, and the events of the last week and my studies of them have me thinking that that really was a big concern of his. If he fails to take UK now, I've got figure that UK will go NATO and that would be a great thing, it would be a major failure for Putin.

Not sure what all that has to do with a failed Russia and its stockpile ... but, Ukraine isn't about anything NATO. It's about his desire to re-control any/all of the former soviet states that he can in order to bring back the good old days. Any NATO talk is kind of a red herring, just like the de-nazification talk. There was no NATO movement. There was nothing in progress in that regard. Just an excuse.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Like one says “the United States” but not “the Canada” or “the Germany.”

And is it "Lebanon" or "The Lebanon"? Or is that another version of the same dilemma (maybe it's "the Lebanon" if you think it belongs to Syria, "Lebanon" if you acknowledge its independence?)

I don't think there's any absolute grammatical 'truth' involved, it's just a matter of custom and historical usage. "The Ukraine", just like "The Congo", is a term that's historically associated with being a possession of another country. It's just polite to use the form the country itself prefers, but I don't think there's any objective meaning in having the definite article or not.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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And is it "Lebanon" or "The Lebanon"? Or is that another version of the same dilemma (maybe it's "the Lebanon" if you think it belongs to Syria, "Lebanon" if you acknowledge its independence?)

I don't think there's any absolute grammatical 'truth' involved, it's just a matter of custom and historical usage. "The Ukraine", just like "The Congo", is a term that's historically associated with being a possession of another country. It's just polite to use the form the country itself prefers, but I don't think there's any objective meaning in having the definite article or not.
The meaning is whether you adopt the language of the aggressor or the country itself. ‘The’ Ukraine adopts Russian language in that Ukraine should be viewed as part of a greater Russian whole. Ukraine itself drops that because they don’t want to be.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,635
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And is it "Lebanon" or "The Lebanon"? Or is that another version of the same dilemma (maybe it's "the Lebanon" if you think it belongs to Syria, "Lebanon" if you acknowledge its independence?)

I don't think there's any absolute grammatical 'truth' involved, it's just a matter of custom and historical usage. "The Ukraine", just like "The Congo", is a term that's historically associated with being a possession of another country. It's just polite to use the form the country itself prefers, but I don't think there's any objective meaning in having the definite article or not.


Me thinks The is used when the name is plural. The Unites States, The Netherlands, The USSR, The UAE and The EU.


Nope, EU is singular so my theory is broken.
 
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akenbennu

Senior member
Jul 24, 2005
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It is not inconceivable that their total casualties already exceed 10% of committed forces after a week.

I think I saw estimates were 5% or the Russian resources and about 5-10% of Ukrainian resources were out of action after a week, but naturally this hurts Ukraine more since they don't have as much to keep feeding the backfill.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
32,162
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FM4Tt7IXMAYdWXM


Good read about what the sanctions are going to do
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,475
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I think we need to get away from American expectations for how fast an offense should move. The Russian invasion is only a week old, far too soon to declare it a failure. For comparison, the 1939 German invasion of Poland took a bit over a month and was considered astonishingly fast. Desert wars have conditioned our expectations.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,129
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I think I saw estimates were 5% or the Russian resources and about 5-10% of Ukrainian resources were out of action after a week, but naturally this hurts Ukraine more since they don't have as much to keep feeding the backfill.

Reports of Belarus hospitals swamped with casualties and the dead being left in the field lead me to suspect Russian losses are higher even than western estimates.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
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Were I Ukraine if the Russians didn't get all my costal defense missiles I'd have been saving them up for right about now. That's probably what the ballistic missile strikes on Odessa were aiming for but don't know if they succeeded.
I believe they had about 70 land to sea missiles , these just went into service a month or two ago and are Ukrainian made
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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The meaning is whether you adopt the language of the aggressor or the country itself. ‘The’ Ukraine adopts Russian language in that Ukraine should be viewed as part of a greater Russian whole. Ukraine itself drops that because they don’t want to be.

I think that's basically what I said. It's a matter of custom and historical usage. The Ukrainians don't use "the", so it's just polite to do likewise. We've already been through that same process with "the" Congo (worse, there are now two different "Congos").

I'm merely saying that there's no objective grammatical rule that says "the" always means a place is a possession of another country, because otherwise you'd have to explain "the Netherlands" and "the United Kingdom" etc...
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,129
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I think we need to get away from American expectations for how fast an offense should move. The Russian invasion is only a week old, far too soon to declare it a failure. For comparison, the 1939 German invasion of Poland took a bit over a month and was considered astonishingly fast. Desert wars have conditioned our expectations.

I think it goes mostly in three to four buckets right now

1) advance on Kyiv from the north - epic debacle books will be written about
2) attack on Donbas - proceeding slowly at high cost
3) thrust from Crimea - going reasonably well
4) invasion in Odessa - TBD
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,129
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I believe they had about 70 land to sea missiles , these just went into service a month or two ago and are Ukrainian made

Putting the bulk of the major Russian Black Sea Fleet surface assets on the bottom would not be an inconsiderable victory if they could pull it off.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I think we need to get away from American expectations for how fast an offense should move. The Russian invasion is only a week old, far too soon to declare it a failure. For comparison, the 1939 German invasion of Poland took a bit over a month and was considered astonishingly fast. Desert wars have conditioned our expectations.
Depends on how you define failure.

1) Russia’s invasion clearly failed if you’re basing that on Russia’s initial objectives. That’s already over.

2) If the question is if after failing initially if Russia will eventually defeat Ukraine’s army and occupy the country that seems highly probable.

3) It’s very likely there will be an insurgency following that though, which Russia will likely lose.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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Depends on how you define failure.

1) Russia’s invasion clearly failed if you’re basing that on Russia’s initial objectives. That’s already over.

2) If the question is if after failing initially if Russia will eventually defeat Ukraine’s army and occupy the country that seems highly probable.

3) It’s very likely there will be an insurgency following that though, which Russia will likely lose.

Economic costs not to be discounted. Putin absolutely convinced himself the west would never dare but we did.