Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
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Sounds like the M1s will be ordered from General Dynamics instead of coming from US stocks. Or maybe GD will buy back some hulls and refit them for export. Administration using the USAI funding pot. Either way not likely to see happy Abrams tooling around through the Ukrainian countryside real soon.

I don't mind as long as it lets German made armor flow into the country almost immediately.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
12,020
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They seem to be doing it from Mig-29s fairly successfully so I think they've largely got it down by now.
Against S-300s and 400s? That is quite a trick on mostly flat terrain. Hats off to those guys. Love to know how they do it.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
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Germany will send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine and approve their re-export from partner countries, German government spokesperson Steffen Hebestreit said in a statement on Wednesday.

The goal was to quickly establish two battalions with Leopard 2 tanks for Ukraine, Reuters reports the statement said, adding Germany would in a first step provide 14 Leopard 2 tanks from military stocks. Training of Ukrainian troops in Germany will begin soon, and Germany will also provide logistics and ammunition, it said.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz is expected to address the German parliament on the issue at 12 GMT.
There we go, it's official. And Germany is sending tanks from their own army stock, not from refurbs or new production, so hopefully they can be shipped almost immediately.
 

RnR_au

Senior member
Jun 6, 2021
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There we go, it's official. And Germany is sending tanks from their own army stock, not from refurbs or new production, so hopefully they can be shipped almost immediately.
Plot twist... Ukrainian forces have already been training on Leopards for months. Surprise offensive on Russian forces in 1 week with the Leopards out in front...

j/k - but one could wish...
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
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There we go, it's official. And Germany is sending tanks from their own army stock, not from refurbs or new production, so hopefully they can be shipped almost immediately.
A big win for the maddeningly opaque and complicated process of Diplomacy. Always remember: Countries don't have friends, only mutual interests. And within any body politic, leaders have to deal with diverse viewpoints and interests, akin to herding cats. In democracies, it's a wonder ANYTHING gets done.

It truly takes an evil retrograde A-1 asshole (political science term) like Putin to unite the likes of France and Germany and Italy and America and Finland and Estonia, Morocco, Spain, Denmark and South Korea, et al. Thank you, you bare chested bozo, you would be Czar.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Have Leopards gone up against Russian/Soviet armour before? I guess we've seen M1s vs T-72s in other conflicts so it's predictable how that would go, but as the M1s (and Challengers) will only be present in very small numbers (and will have difficulty being supplied and refuelled?) I guess they won't see a lot of action, whereas the Leopards will presumably be more extensively used?

Am interested to see if these things make any dramatic difference.
 
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K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
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Have Leopards gone up against Russian/Soviet armour before? I guess we've seen M1s vs T-72s in other conflicts so it's predictable how that would go, but as the M1s (and Challengers) will only be present in very small numbers (and will have difficulty being supplied and refuelled?) I guess they won't see a lot of action, whereas the Leopards will presumably be more extensively used?

Am interested to see if these things make any dramatic difference.
I don't think the Leopards have ever gone tank to tank against Soviet models. I'd certainly rather be in an 2A6 than anything else on that battlefield besides the M1 tho.

There are a lot of advantages of switching over for the Ukrainians: better gun, spares availability, better optics/thermals, better armor, more survivable, won't break down as often as used Soviet tanks, plentiful ammunition, barrels last longer than Soviet caliber barrels, etc. Ukraine is making do with a huge mishmash of Soviet tank models have have been in sustained combat for almost a year. Leopards are going to be a considerable improvement.


edit: lmao the view from Russian state media

 
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Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
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Biden makes it official, 31 M1s for Ukraine.
It unfortunately sounds like it's going to take months for those to arrive, but that may give Russia pause if it thinks it can launch a renewed assault in the spring. Russian tanks already have trouble cracking Ukranian defenses; they might not stand a chance against M1 Abrams tanks.
 
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GoPackGo

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Oct 10, 2003
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Plot twist... Ukrainian forces have already been training on Leopards for months. Surprise offensive on Russian forces in 1 week with the Leopards out in front...

j/k - but one could wish...
I would expect some have been training in Poland... They would not have announced it to the world. I also wonder how much the MIC has ramped up production of everything.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Wouldn't it be interesting if when WW3 breaks out that Germany would be part of "The Allies"?
Meh, it's not new - Italy and Japan were both on the "allied" side in WW1. Not sure "interesting" would be the adjective I'd apply to any aspect of WW3, though. There probably wouldn't be time to think about such things before being crushed/radiated/vaporised.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
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It unfortunately sounds like it's going to take months for those to arrive, but that may give Russia pause if it thinks it can launch a renewed assault in the spring. Russian tanks already have trouble cracking Ukranian defenses; they might not stand a chance against M1 Abrams tanks.
The quality of Russian tank forces is not likely to improve in the interim.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
42,349
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I would expect some have been training in Poland... They would not have announced it to the world. I also wonder how much the MIC has ramped up production of everything.
German industry says they can have upwards of 50 Leopard 2s (A4s and A5s) and maybe 200 Leopard 1s delivered to Ukraine in 2023. This is separate from the 14 2A6 units the German army will hand over. European countries will buy them for Ukraine as long as Germany issues the export licenses to Rheinmetall and KMW.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
42,349
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Norway will supply tanks, as expected. I figure these will come from their couple dozen reserve not their active units. They seem to take good care of their stored equipment since they got their M109A3GNs into the fight very quickly.

They're going to be replacing these soon with either 2A7s or K2s. They already bought K9 howitzers from SK.

 
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vi edit

Elite Member
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Oct 28, 1999
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I again admit pure ignorance, but what is considered a "critical mass of tanks"? I assume there is some calculus of handful are nice, but very expensive and high priority targets. Where does that shift to "oh, this is a legitimate threat and Russia needs to respect a column of heavy metal"?
 
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Brovane

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Dec 18, 2001
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I again admit pure ignorance, but what is considered a "critical mass of tanks"? I assume there is some calculus of handful are nice, but very expensive and high priority targets. Where does that shift to "oh, this is a legitimate threat and Russia needs to respect a column of heavy metal"?
A regular US army brigade has about 80-90 main battle tanks. If Ukraine had a mix of around 80-100 modern Main Battle Tanks along with the Infantry fighting vehicles that would allow them to well equip one brigade with this equipment which isn't bad. In suitable ground the Abrams and Leopards should make short work for any Russian T-series tanks. Maybe have supporting Ukraine T-series tanks to go in close and flush out the Russia tanks while the western tanks hang back and support and use their long range capabilities to pick off the Russian tanks.
 
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