[Rumor/Speculation] GTX Titan X 12GB vs R9 390X 4GB vs Unknown GM200 GPU

[raghu78]

I do not believe AMD has 4 GB VRAM on their flagship GPU especially when it edges out Titan-X. AMD has been steadily increasing VRAM on their flagship GPU for past 3 generations and beating out the equivalent competitor (GTX 580 vs HD 6970 , GTX 680 vs HD 7970 and GTX 780 Ti vs R9 290X). I doubt they are going to give up on that. Moreover AMD designed the consoles with 8 GB RAM and must have foreseen the bloating texture budgets on next gen console games.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1530716/...-fiji-380x-and-bermuda-390x-benchmarks-leaked

Anyway I expect AMD to launch their flagship GPU with 6 - 8 GB HBM. So we will see how this one plays out. btw people who are criticizing a AIO CLC solution are just being argumentative. You will see the R9 390X with lower temps and noise than Titan-X and it will also help in overclocking. :thumbsup:

 

[exar333]

I do not believe AMD has 4 GB VRAM on their flagship GPU especially when it edges out Titan-X. AMD has been steadily increasing VRAM on their flagship GPU for past 3 generations and beating out the equivalent competitor (GTX 580 vs HD 6970 , GTX 680 vs HD 7970 and GTX 780 Ti vs R9 290X). I doubt they are going to give up on that. Moreover AMD designed the consoles with 8 GB RAM and must have foreseen the bloating texture budgets on next gen console games.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1530716/...-fiji-380x-and-bermuda-390x-benchmarks-leaked

Anyway I expect AMD to launch their flagship GPU with 6 - 8 GB HBM. So we will see how this one plays out. btw people who are criticizing a AIO CLC solution are just being argumentative. You will see the R9 390X with lower temps and noise than Titan-X and it will also help in overclocking. :thumbsup:

Going >4GB will result in a larger package (yes, cue the jokes...😛), and Fiji is likely to already be very large. It is POSSIBLE but pretty unlikely.

If AMD goes to all the trouble to put 2x interposers on Fiji, they might as well just do 8GB. (4GB per). 6GB wouldn't make much sense. Go big or keep to a 4GB config 🙂

 

[3DVagabond]

Of course. They copied from some other site and simulated the rest based on that without whatever rumours/hopes they have.

But a 289W Fiji XT wouldnt need a hybrid cooling solution that would scare 90% of the buyers away.

There isnt even a source for these charts. So why we even discuss it is a mystery.

We already know that these are not official and to be taken with a grain of salt.

The Bold: What cooler that AMD has would you recommend? The one from the 290X? We already know that won't handle it. It'll be 94° and loud again. The W1000? Dumps all of the heat into the case which isn't suited for a reference design. Even the nVidia Titan cooler, with how expensive that is, wouldn't be satisfactory. Remember that's avg. power consumption. That's too much for any 2 slot blower that's out there to handle well.

 

[raghu78]

We already know that these are not official and to be taken with a grain of salt.

The Bold: What cooler that AMD has would you recommend? The one from the 290X? We already know that won't handle it. It'll be 94° and loud again. The W1000? Dumps all of the heat into the case which isn't suited for a reference design. Even the nVidia Titan cooler, with how expensive that is, wouldn't be satisfactory. Remember that's avg. power consumption. That's too much for any 2 slot blower that's out there to handle well.

Come on. AMD are doing a good job with the CLC and the R9 295x2 was universally praised by reviewers. You think its going to be any different now. I hope AMD has better VRM cooling than on the R9 295x2 so as to make this a real overclocking beast. :thumbsup:

 

[3DVagabond]

Come on. AMD are doing a good job with the CLC and the R9 295x2 was universally praised by reviewers. You think its going to be any different now. I hope AMD has better VRM cooling than on the R9 295x2 so as to make this a real overclocking beast. :thumbsup:

I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm simply arguing against AMD trying to design a blower that would have to be better than the Titan cooler. I say better because the Titan cooler can't keep the Titan or 780ti (similar TDP to the proposed 390X) from throttling without increasing the temp target and increasing the fan speed.

If this card has any issues it won't be the cooler.

 

[Erenhardt]

Not sure if serious.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1485033/silverstone-sugo-sg08-sg08-lite-owners-club/100#post_22811984

http://www.overclock.net/t/1485033/silverstone-sugo-sg08-sg08-lite-owners-club/100#post_22865040

AIBs/OEMs have already designed systems that incorporate AIO CLC because 295X2 has been sold for months. Seems like you don't at all keep up with the high-end boutique firms but continue to make statements like 90-99% of OEMs would not want AIO CLC GPUs......:thumbsdown: Newsflash, to incorporate 3x 120mm AIO CLCs, a case just needs 3x120mm fan openings which isn't exactly revolutionary in 2015.

A $120 NZXT 440 case will fit 3X 390X AIO CLCs. Anyone who can afford to spend $1500+ on GPUs can afford a new $120 case.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...ESTMATCH&Description=NZXT+440&N=-1&isNodeId=1

My el'cheapo CM N300 have 7x 120mm mounting holes - not counting the one on the opening side panel. 2-top 2-front, 2-side and 1 rear.

Any decent (but still cheap) case have at least 3x 120mm holes. Plenty for crossfire watercooled setup.

And even you there are not enough mounting holes for GPU and CPU rad, I would keep GPU WC and install regular air heatsink on cpu. GPU generate more heat than CPU - dumping only CPU heat inside the case is non issue even is the very tiny cases. Dumping heat from high-end gpu inside a small case will make case fans spin faster and generate more noise.

 

[ocre]

I feel as if you are just trying to lather yourself in your own little wall of fanboyism and want RS to just leave you alone. Normally I'd understand, but whenever there's something going on with amd you're quick to jump on the beat the amd train so it's no longer fair to want RS to leave you alone, because his points are supremely valid.

I never beat on the AMD train, sorry.

Also, i dont think your cheerleading is appropriate in this case. There is no reason at all RS should single out 980 owners or state that it is somehow too bad for them they bought one. How can anyone gloat about a card loosing its value when it hasn't even lost its value? Are you serious?
There are far better examples of cards that actually really did loose their value in 6 months, and the 980 is not one of them. It is completely unfit and crazy that this is being pushed as some drawback when it hasn't even lost its value at all up and to this point. Maybe you just don't understand the conversation and just cheer happy.

By they way, if you want to contest my statements or my view on this, I openly invite you. But I think you should refrain from talking about me

 

[Cookie Monster]

On the subject of AIO coolers.. its always bad for the IHV to be using these kind of exotic options. Think all the risks behind AIO coolers. Compatibility (against literally thousands of cases in all sort of shape and sizes), points of failure (pump, fan, leakage), and the added costs (licensing royalties to X vendor of the AIO cooler). If one starts to argue about "hey its 2015, we use XYZ cases that have ABC 120mm options etc" you've already lost a chunk of potential customers. Maximizing the return is always good, especially for a company like AMD..

Its also worrisome when the 120mm rad AIO coolers can handle thermal dissipation up to more than 300W which points to the next AMD top GPU being very power hungry. Just think back to how the GTX480s cooler was leaked. The temperature on the GPU maybe below average for a high end GPU but it is still dissipating alot of heat which will have to go somewhere (ambient).

It also doesn't bode well for servers variants and other applications that require 1000+ (or even 10000s) of these things. Suddenly even a meager 20W difference could result in 20KW of extra power consumption!

Absolute performance maybe one thing, but I do get worried when we aren't seeing improvements in the power consumption side of things. Its ALWAYS good to have fast performing products that sip little power. Everything else becomes easier e.g. cost of the cooler is reduced due to less heat, VRM is simpler due to less power requried, PCB layers are reduced due to the VRMs being less complex/GPU requiring less power, noise is lower due to less heat etc etc.

However from a hardware enthusiasts point of view, the AIO cooler won't be too much of an issue as long as performance is good and doesnt cost an arm and a leg 😀 The cooler would actually be a nice addition since alot of enthusiasts that like to OC have done something like this with custom brackets (which have gone commercial from companies like corsair!).

 

[3DVagabond]

This is working with the leaks in this thread since it's on topic and all we have to go on.

On the subject of AIO coolers.. its always bad for the IHV to be using these kind of exotic options. Think all the risks behind AIO coolers. Compatibility (against literally thousands of cases in all sort of shape and sizes), points of failure (pump, fan, leakage), and the added costs (licensing royalties to X vendor of the AIO cooler). If one starts to argue about "hey its 2015, we use XYZ cases that have ABC 120mm options etc" you've already lost a chunk of potential customers. Maximizing the return is always good, especially for a company like AMD.

Needing a case that you can mount one, or even two 120mm exhaust fans (assuming AIO on the CPU too) on for using a $500+ GPU is not very limiting at all. Let's be realistic here. I have an older Silverstone case that would require me removing the HDD tray to mount one of todays top cards due to length. It has a couple of 120mm fan mounts though.

Its also worrisome when the 120mm rad AIO coolers can handle thermal dissipation up to more than 300W which points to the next AMD top GPU being very power hungry. Just think back to how the GTX480s cooler was leaked. The temperature on the GPU maybe below average for a high end GPU but it is still dissipating alot of heat which will have to go somewhere (ambient).

Reference style blowers don't work well on cards in the 250W and higher class. We've also had cards in this power catagory for years now and it only seems to be an issue when nVidia doesn't have one too. Don't worry though the new Titan will use similar power (~30W less?). Then it will all be about absolute usage not ambient heat.

It also doesn't bode well for servers variants and other applications that require 1000+ (or even 10000s) of these things. Suddenly even a meager 20W difference could result in 20KW of extra power consumption!

Radeon cards aren't designed for servers, high end workstations, etc... (Neither are Geforce cards despite what some try and sell us).

Absolute performance maybe one thing, but I do get worried when we aren't seeing improvements in the power consumption side of things. Its ALWAYS good to have fast performing products that sip little power. Everything else becomes easier e.g. cost of the cooler is reduced due to less heat, VRM is simpler due to less power requried, PCB layers are reduced due to the VRMs being less complex/GPU requiring less power, noise is lower due to less heat etc etc.

Well, nothing to worry about. These leaks show us ~50% improvement in perf/W. I'm not sure why you are saying we aren't seeing any improvement?

However from a hardware enthusiasts point of view, the AIO cooler won't be too much of an issue as long as performance is good and doesnt cost an arm and a leg 😀 The cooler would actually be a nice addition since alot of enthusiasts that like to OC have done something like this with custom brackets (which have gone commercial from companies like corsair!).

A cooler like this costs less than a high end air cooler on the retail market. Costs way less when you figure in the R&D for a first class reference cooler like the Titan cooler and it simply performs better. Makes it seem foolish to go the expensive blower route, really.

 

[MeldarthX]

How many OEMs do you know that will fit or offer water cooling? Just look what you can get with a 295X2.

What happens if you already got water cooling?

when I worked for Falcon-NW; we used fastest out there; we would do on rare occasions water set ups........

I know for a fact if 390X is fastest out there; comes with AIO; they would put it through paces to make sure it doesn't fail and then put it into the system.

I can understand your agruement; but its based on made up stats that you've pulled from the air. Another thing; if 390X is faster than Titan X and costs less a lot less........oem will snatch it up because they will make more money off it......as margins for some are razer thin; others.....they aren't...

 

[Silverforce11]

Absolute performance maybe one thing, but I do get worried when we aren't seeing improvements in the power consumption side of things.

So far, 390X:

Same or less power usage to R290X.

FIFTY PERCENT FASTER.

Digest it a bit.

To put it into perspective, it's ~33W more than Titan X. That's around what, 12% more power? What if it turns out to be 10% faster? Hmm. Food for thought.

 

[raghu78]

So far, 390X:

Same or less power usage to R290X.

FIFTY PERCENT FASTER.

Digest it a bit.

To put it into perspective, it's ~33W more than Titan X. That's around what, 12% more power? What if it turns out to be 10% faster? Hmm. Food for thought.

Since the R9 390X launch is more than 2 months away there is room for launch drivers improving performance further thus opening up a 8-10% perf gap between R9 390X and Titan. In that case the perf/watt between these 2 cards will be similar. :thumbsup:

I want the R9 390X to complete the package by launching with 8GB HBM and USD 650-700 and 8- 10% faster than Titan-X. Then there is nothing to complain and AMD have a home run. Nvidia will have a nightmare on their hands. 🙂

 

[Silverforce11]

I think the 8GB HBM version will come much later. 4GB is the only flaw I see with such a card, and it is potentially a big flaw when the competitor has 12GB!

If reviewers test CF vs SLI and go with 4K + DSR/VSR or high AA, it's game over for the 390X CF setup, hitting the vram wall and tanking hard. No doubt this will be on NV's reviewer guide.

 

[AtenRa]

About the perf/watt efficiency,

If the numbers are true, the Fiji-XT will have the same power of the HD7970 GHz/280X but almost double (2x) the performance at the same 28nm.

 

[3DVagabond]

I think the 8GB HBM version will come much later. 4GB is the only flaw I see with such a card, and it is potentially a big flaw when the competitor has 12GB!

If reviewers test CF vs SLI and go with 4K + DSR/VSR or high AA, it's game over for the 390X CF setup, hitting the vram wall and tanking hard. No doubt this will be on NV's reviewer guide.

You mean nVidia will start recommending SLI again? That hasn't happened since XDMA was implemented.

 

[Silverforce11]

About the perf/watt efficiency,

If the numbers are true, the Fiji-XT will have the same power of the HD7970 GHz/280X but almost double (2x) the performance at the same 28nm.

I doubt its that good though. That kind of power load doesn't justify a water cooler. Around R290X levels, yes sure.

 

[AtenRa]

I doubt its that good though. That kind of power load doesn't justify a water cooler. Around R290X levels, yes sure.

Fiji-XT is not the full Fiji, full Fiji power should be close to 290X or a little higher.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Needing a case that you can mount one, or even two 120mm exhaust fans (assuming AIO on the CPU too) on for using a $500+ GPU is not very limiting at all. Let's be realistic here. I have an older Silverstone case that would require me removing the HDD tray to mount one of todays top cards due to length. It has a couple of 120mm fan mounts though.

Fact of the matter is that you have to go through all that hassle which alot of non technical folks don't like doing. Those people are also part of the high end market im afraid. The other thing I have to mention is that not all 120mm exhausts are created equal i.e. you may not be able to fit the rad as it sticks out e.g. Antec Solo case which i happen to own..

Reference style blowers don't work well on cards in the 250W and higher class. We've also had cards in this power catagory for years now and it only seems to be an issue when nVidia doesn't have one too. Don't worry though the new Titan will use similar power (~30W less?). Then it will all be about absolute usage not ambient heat.

I own a GTX780 which happens to have a TDP of 250W. I think alot of people who own a GTX780/Ti/Titan can attest to how good this reference cooler is given its limits. But as we all know, the TDP isn't an accurate indicator for actual power consumption but still the numbers are somewhat close to real world results.

Radeon cards aren't designed for servers, high end workstations, etc... (Neither are Geforce cards despite what some try and sell us).

Is that why they have extreme DP capabilities? or how they constantly harp on about openCL, GPGPU, HSA etc? they share the exact same die.

Well, nothing to worry about. These leaks show us ~50% improvement in perf/W. I'm not sure why you are saying we aren't seeing any improvement?

Because I also happen to take it with a grain of salt? I cant think of any reason why any design engineers would go with an AIO cooler unless their newly designed GPU is really really hot and require a more beefy solution. For the R295X, it made sense (as also seen by the Titan Z's limited cooling on air). But for a single GPU solution? especially when leaks are showing power consumption close to the R290X? Did that require an AIO cooler?

A cooler like this costs less than a high end air cooler on the retail market. Costs way less when you figure in the R&D for a first class reference cooler like the Titan cooler and it simply performs better. Makes it seem foolish to go the expensive blower route, really.

So that R&D cost is too much compared to the licensing fees that AMD has to pay to use these coolers (maybe even royalties per unit sold)? on top of all the risks? Whereas their rival invested in this expensive(?) reference cooler where its being used for almost all their high end products from the moment of its introduction (Titan -> 780 series -> Maxwell as well as the high end Quadros).

 

[Cookie Monster]

So far, 390X:

Same or less power usage to R290X.

FIFTY PERCENT FASTER.

Digest it a bit.

To put it into perspective, it's ~33W more than Titan X. That's around what, 12% more power? What if it turns out to be 10% faster? Hmm. Food for thought.

Digest what? from sources that supposedly had all the cards in their hands and tested all 20+ games with drivers? The only leaks that Id consider fact are HBM, some of its spec like being 4GB (thats all they can fit atm!) and the AIO cooling solution.

Disappointment is a function of expectation.

 

[AtenRa]

Im betting AMD used the water cooler for the Top-End card just because of the 290X fiasco. They could do a Titan Air Cooler but im sure they found out they could have better performance with the water cooler at almost the same price or perf/price was the same but the water cooler had higher perf making the GPU work at lower temps and letting them increase the frequency more.

I bet Fiji-XT (cut-down version) will only be Air cooled.

 

[3DVagabond]

Fact of the matter is that you have to go through all that hassle which alot of non technical folks don't like doing. Those people are also part of the high end market im afraid. The other thing I have to mention is that not all 120mm exhausts are created equal i.e. you may not be able to fit the rad as it sticks out e.g. Antec Solo case which i happen to own..

It's not rocket science to mount a 120mm Rad. I'll bet my wife could do it with a butter knife for a screwdriver.

I own a GTX780 which happens to have a TDP of 250W. I think alot of people who own a GTX780/Ti/Titan can attest to how good this reference cooler is given its limits. But as we all know, the TDP isn't an accurate indicator for actual power consumption but still the numbers are somewhat close to real world results.

You didn't address what I said at all. GK110 throttles with the reference cooler unless you raise temp targets or fan speed or both. Fact. What makes you think AMD could do any better? Why have the cooler be the limiting factor on a card when a simple solution is already their?


Is that why they have extreme DP capabilities? or how they constantly harp on about openCL, GPGPU, HSA etc? they share the exact same die.

Radeon and Geforce cards are for gaming. Period. End of story. AMD makes the Firepro S series of cards for servers. They use different drivers, RAM, clocks, and cooling solutions.


Because I also happen to take it with a grain of salt? I cant think of any reason why any design engineers would go with an AIO cooler unless their newly designed GPU is really really hot and require a more beefy solution. For the R295X, it made sense (as also seen by the Titan Z's limited cooling on air). But for a single GPU solution? especially when leaks are showing power consumption close to the R290X? Did that require an AIO cooler?

That's fine, but it's the topic of this thread. As I said, according to what's been leaked here. And the 290X biggest downfall was the reference cooler. Who wants to see that again?


So that R&D cost is too much compared to the licensing fees that AMD has to pay to use these coolers (maybe even royalties per unit sold)? on top of all the risks? Whereas their rival invested in this expensive(?) reference cooler where its being used for almost all their high end products from the moment of its introduction (Titan -> 780 series -> Maxwell as well as the high end Quadros).

What licensing fees? AMD are buying them. Not licensing them to make themselves. Royalties? They are simply buying coolers. You don't pay royalties. I've seen AIO coolers like these on sale for $29.99 retail. What do you think AMD is paying for them?

Think about it?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Think about it?

Think about what? Im not even talking about the mounting. But you bring up a good point. Mounting on top of the compatibility issues. Lets go back to the antec solo case example. Put the rad at the exhaust and voila. The top part is being blocked by the power supply.. This is just but one of many cases out there that require too much user intervention especially in this day and age.

I own a GK110 card. What throttling? Actually maybe anyone here with a GK110 card can have their say. And its abit sad that in your mind AMD can't do a better job than nVIDIA. Why not?

Different drivers, memory ICs, clocks and cooling solution.. but the same GPU die. So logically thinking.. they've designed this for many different applications. Not just for gaming. Or else why have such burdensome DP capabilities built in? You'd save many transistors i.e. die space as well as alot of power consumption!

Firstly where are you seeing $29.99 coolers? Id be sort of worried if thats the type of AIO cooler they are using. And buying from who? off the shelf? and then putting their logo on it? It'd be asking for legal trouble. I'd actually laugh if that was the case!

What they've most likely done is, gone to one of the AIO manufacturers (e.g. asetek), cut a deal with them with supplying the appropriate AIO cooler design with requirements (need to dissiapte xW, fan choice, 120mm only etc) as their reference cooling solution for their GPU in return for $. Its not as simple as you may think it is. Licensing is another option which gives alot more flexibility in return for cost because now you have more control over its design/manufacturability. Royalties I only brought up because theres alot of patents involved even in AIO coolers. Reason why switftech got slammed by asetek sometime ago.

 

[therealnickdanger]

Pretty exciting stuff. If this thing is priced right around the 980, existing GPU prices will drop harder than Bassnectar.

 

[boxleitnerb]

I want the R9 390X to complete the package by launching with 8GB HBM and USD 650-700 and 8- 10% faster than Titan-X. Then there is nothing to complain and AMD have a home run. Nvidia will have a nightmare on their hands. 🙂

And that would make you happy because you dislike Nvidia?
Good that there are many posters here without that kind of emotional attachment and childish attitude.

 

[MeldarthX]

Going >4GB will result in a larger package (yes, cue the jokes...😛), and Fiji is likely to already be very large. It is POSSIBLE but pretty unlikely.

If AMD goes to all the trouble to put 2x interposers on Fiji, they might as well just do 8GB. (4GB per). 6GB wouldn't make much sense. Go big or keep to a 4GB config 🙂

Eh you don't need two interposers; you can make the interposer whatever size you want ie up to 1200mm+ *its not going to happen because dealing with failure rate etc and price* but AMD are not limited by interposer size.....anyone tries to say otherwise hasn't read the white papers...