[Rumor/Speculation] GTX Titan X 12GB vs R9 390X 4GB vs Unknown GM200 GPU

[ShintaiDK]

Don't you think $500+ dollars is a niche in and of itself? lol

No. Its been the performance segment for quite a long time.

 

[JDG1980]

Closed-loop watercoolers have some advantages, but they have disadvantages as well: the pump can break, the device could potentially leak, and you need a 120mm fan mount for exhaust. These are all reasons why OEMs have been reluctant to embrace it. For enthusiasts, the fan mount requirement can also be a limitation. For example, if you use a R9 295 X2 in a BitFenix Prodigy, you can't also use a CLC watercooler on your CPU, since there's only one 120mm exhaust. If you want to use a CPU watercooler plus a pair of R9 390X's when they come out, then even some mid-tower cases won't be able to handle that.

Don't get me wrong, it was a clever way to handle the requirements of a 500W TDP, and on the R9 295 X2 I think that it made sense. But if the R9 390X comes in at 250W and still has a CLC, then what that really means is that AMD can't afford the R&D for a good blower like the one Nvidia has. They understandably don't want to get beaten up again by reviewers reviewing the crappy stock cooler instead of the card (even though the overwhelming majority of all Hawaii cards sold have AIB coolers). Both AMD and the review sites are to blame for this state of affairs.

Personally, I think the best thermal solution of all is the one found in the Mac Pro. To cool a Xeon CPU and two Tahiti GPUs, they use no pumps, only one fan, and a unified heatsink to which all components are affixed. It would be really nice if we had an open DIY form factor that could achieve these same advantages.

Sorry, scratch the sentence in red above - I forgot that the Prodigy has a removable 240mm top mount.

 

[Silverforce11]

Closed-loop watercoolers have some advantages, but they have disadvantages as well: the pump can break, the device could potentially leak, and you need a 120mm fan mount for exhaust. These are all reasons why OEMs have been reluctant to embrace it. For enthusiasts, the fan mount requirement can also be a limitation. For example, if you use a R9 295 X2 in a BitFenix Prodigy, you can't also use a CLC watercooler on your CPU, since there's only one 120mm exhaust. If you want to use a CPU watercooler plus a pair of R9 390X's when they come out, then even some mid-tower cases won't be able to handle that.

This isn't true, in PC retail over here, many have custom high-end rigs, nearly always AIO CPU cooled. It depends entirely on the segment, if its low-end OEM stuff, forget about it.

Also you are wrong about the BitFenix Prodigy, I know because I have one. The top can accommodate a 240mm rad. The rear has a 120mm rad/fan slot. People have modified a full custom water loop for it since its so flexible.

 

[RussianSensation]

Once you go water, you can't go BACK!

The main things that stopped me from going water cooling for GPUs were the cost of getting a pump, custom loop, full GPU water blocks and if that loop leaks, which happens to the most careful and experienced custom water loop builders, there is no warranty for failed components since you assembled the entire custom water loop yourself. Water leaks on your mobo/CPU/GPU, all dead, with no warranty!

Enter AIO CLC - it's the next step up from air cooling, but you get warranty from Swiftech/Corsair/etc. All of a sudden Swiftech HX-220/240X and AIO CLC GPUs in CF/SLI is finally a safe solution, with amazing cooling performance and noise levels!

It's amazing some members try to claim that AIO CLC is not an enthusiast solution when Corsair and NZXT created AIO brackets for CLC for GPUs because enthusiasts wanted them!

AIO CLC means you can have 4x 250W GPUs inside a mid-tower. Want a 5960X in there with a 240-280mm AIO CLC, no problem!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZe244Ufv0

 

[ShintaiDK]

Even an mITX setup benefits from AIO GPU cooling. I've built a few Silverstone SG05/6 as well as 08B rigs, in particular the 05/06 which are 12L (IIRC) cases benefit tremendously with AIO cooling.

I got both SG08B and SG05B. How would you fit any AIO in that?

 

[Silverforce11]

I got both SG08B and SG05B. How would you fit any AIO in that?

SG05 has a 120mm rad slot at the front. Its typically for CPU AIO but it works just fine for GPU AIO too as long as the GPU itself is 270mm or less (to fit the length of the case). You can't have the SlimDVD (who needs it anyway?) mount if you go AIO.

I had a i5-2500K + 7950 in the SG05. I posted some pics of my SG05 rig in the SFF forum a long time ago. In such a setup the rad is on exhaust, so it'll draw the waste heat of the CPU (SFF tower cooler) and because the GPU isn't dumping heat in the case, it runs quite cool and quiet.

SG08B is even easier since its so spacious.

 

[RussianSensation]

I got both SG08B and SG05B. How would you fit any AIO in that?

Not sure if serious.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1485033/silverstone-sugo-sg08-sg08-lite-owners-club/100#post_22811984

http://www.overclock.net/t/1485033/silverstone-sugo-sg08-sg08-lite-owners-club/100#post_22865040

AIBs/OEMs have already designed systems that incorporate AIO CLC because 295X2 has been sold for months. Seems like you don't at all keep up with the high-end boutique firms but continue to make statements like 90-99% of OEMs would not want AIO CLC GPUs......:thumbsdown: Newsflash, to incorporate 3x 120mm AIO CLCs, a case just needs 3x120mm fan openings which isn't exactly revolutionary in 2015.

A $120 NZXT 440 case will fit 3X 390X AIO CLCs. Anyone who can afford to spend $1500+ on GPUs can afford a new $120 case.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...ESTMATCH&Description=NZXT+440&N=-1&isNodeId=1

 

[ShintaiDK]

SG05 has a 120mm rad slot at the front. Its typically for CPU AIO but it works just fine for GPU AIO too as long as the GPU itself is 270mm or less (to fit the length of the case). You can't have the SlimDVD (who needs it anyway?) mount if you go AIO.

I had a i5-2500K + 7950 in the SG05. I posted some pics of my SG05 rig in the SFF forum a long time ago. In such a setup the rad is on exhaust, so it'll draw the waste heat of the CPU (SFF tower cooler) and because the GPU isn't dumping heat in the case, it runs quite cool and quiet.

SG08B is even easier since its so spacious.

You and I got some rather different definitions of spacious

Do you have some advices for the SG08B? Going to make a new build with Skylake. And the SSD will be turned into an M.2 at the same time to save more space. And I tend to remove the bays etc.
The only place I can see anything fit is the 180mm slot for the fan. But it needs to be less than 180mm to fit deeper in I guess.

I found one here, but requires homemade metal plate for conversion:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1776053

 

[blastingcap]

No. Its been the performance segment for quite a long time.

I don't think that much has changed in 2 years. >$300 is still probably pretty niche.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I don't think that much has changed in 2 years. >$300 is still probably pretty niche.

Its still the performance segment thats significantly bigger than the enthusiast. Its also absed on a steam survey. So who knows what the parameters was.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

 

[Silverforce11]

@ShintaiDK
There used to be very long threads on the SG05/6 and 08 builds on [H] (SFF: http://hardforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=102), I added some pics of my builds to that thread. But I went to find it and seems all the older threads were erased, seems they had a forum wipe.

Both SG05/6 & 8 require the exclusion of the HDD bays/slim DvD mount if one intends on going AIO cooling. The easiest solution for SDDs is Velcro it to any surface. Works a charm, just use strong Velcro. I have a lot of fun trying to cram the most powerful hardware into the littlest of spaces so the SG08 is actually very spacious in comparison to the SG05 or A4 or Pico mITX cases.

 

[blastingcap]

Its still the performance segment thats significantly bigger than the enthusiast. Its also absed on a steam survey. So who knows what the parameters was.

Yeah but you were saying $500+ video cards were not niche.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Yeah but you were saying $500+ video cards were not niche.

The niche starts higher up.

GTX970 and GTX980 is in the performance segment. Titan X and other GM200 cards is where you hit the niche(Enthusiast segment).

 

[Gloomy]

Pretty crazy what GM200 does without HBM. Nvidia really nailed efficiency with Maxwell.

The R9 390X seems like a pipe cleaner for HBM, it doesn't seem like they're capitalizing on it at all, just trying to get the kinks out in a product that doesn't really need it.

 

[The Alias]

The niche starts higher up.

GTX970 and GTX980 is in the performance segment. Titan X and other GM200 cards is where you hit the niche(Enthusiast segment).

There are so many ways I can slice this against you, but I'll leave it at this:
Since when has the top card in a lineup not actually been an enthusiast part? Except for 48xx and 58xx series

 

[el etro]

Take it with some salt.

Take it with a ton of salt.

One thing is right: The more leaks are being showed on the webs, closer the card is to the launch.

 

[RussianSensation]

Pretty crazy what GM200 does without HBM. Nvidia really nailed efficiency with Maxwell.

The R9 390X seems like a pipe cleaner for HBM, it doesn't seem like they're capitalizing on it at all, just trying to get the kinks out in a product that doesn't really need it.

AMD would not have used the expensive and 4GB VRAM limited HBM if there was never significant memory controller area die savings and bandwidth/watt improvements. If 390X is a 290W card with 4096 shaders, 256 TMUs and 45%+ performance increase over 290X, that's a huge 45%+ improvement in perf/watt. You are right that Maxwell nailed efficiency but given how much smaller AMD is as a firm in terms of resources compared to NV (i.e., AMD isn't primarily a GPU business), the fact that AMD would be able to keep up or even beat a Titan X with a 390X is a remarkable achievement. You say NV didn't even need HBM to keep up with a 390X, I view it as AMD is able to use a 3.5 year-old GCN architecture that has been re-tweaked to keep up with a less than 1-year-old designed from scratch brand new Maxwell architecture. IMO, what AMD may achieve given its lack of resources and still using such an ancient architecture in tech terms is more impressive if 390X actually keeps up with Titan X.

It'll be interesting to see what AMD has post-GCN because after Maxwell, NV will launch Pascal, yet another brand new architecture and by that point GCN will be nearly 5 years old! If AMD continues to use GCN for 14nm to go head-to-head against Pascal, I'll be mind-blown at the longevity of 1 GPU architecture.

 

[Techhog]

How many OEMs do you know that will fit or offer water cooling? Just look what you can get with a 295X2.

What happens if you already got water cooling?

As much as I know that arguing with you is a mistake... How many non-enthusiast OEMs offer top-of-the-line cards in the first place, let alone dual-GPU cards?

 

[YBS1]

Hopefully they will have the foresight to sell bare editions of the card without the pump/radiator. It would be nice to be able to buy ready to go cards you could just plug into an existing loop without having to wait on custom blocks to hit the market.

 

[exar333]

Hopefully they will have the foresight to sell bare editions of the card without the pump/radiator. It would be nice to be able to buy ready to go cards you could just plug into an existing loop without having to wait on custom blocks to hit the market.

This!

 

[parvadomus]

Pretty crazy what GM200 does without HBM. Nvidia really nailed efficiency with Maxwell.

The R9 390X seems like a pipe cleaner for HBM, it doesn't seem like they're capitalizing on it at all, just trying to get the kinks out in a product that doesn't really need it.

They only use it for power saving purposes.

Going back ontopic, if FijiXT launches immediatly after TitanX, the buttrape will be horrible.

 

[Cloudfire777]

4096 shaders @1000MHz
4GB HBM VRAM @1250MHz @ 4096bit

Gonna be one interesting card, thats for sure.

 

[Silverforce11]

They only use it for power saving purposes.

Going back ontopic, if FijiXT launches immediatly after TitanX, the buttrape will be horrible.

In addition to the power savings, there's 3 major bonus, I am sure when AT does the architecture review it will be highlighted.

1. Die space saving for the memory controller & subsystem. It's been presented in the past by AMD, the typical MC & subsystem is up to a third of the die! There's potential for cramming in more performance enhancement transistors with the space saved.

2. Huge increase in bandwidth. Benefits are obvious, particular at high resolution.

3. Decrease in memory latency. Theoretically leads to higher efficiency per shader due to more up-time.

These add up with tweaks to GCN itself, so a 50% efficiency gain is not out of the realms of impossibility, thus the leak numbers, we see +50% performance of R290X at similar power levels.

It will be interesting to see if the mid-range 380/X class also gets HBM. I do not believe its a Hawaii re-brand, that would be total fail.

 

[ocre]

This leak is most likely bogus, completely bogus.......

But I really am excited and can't wait to see the next round. Its gonna be a long few months man. I keep thinking though, I must be such a geek. The excitement I get over a new wave I've 28nm cards, there is no way I could contain myself if this was 16nm or 20.

Coming from a guy who bought a $550 980 and is already bashing a card at least 30% faster with a cooler that will blow away any 980's air cooler out of the water?

It's interesting you are already criticizing AIO CLC and assuming 90%+ of gamers aren't interested before the card even went on sale. Can you see the future now? Just like last time you saw no APUs in PS4 and XB1?

Again, why do you continue to ignore that AMD got negative PR from a reference blower 290X? AIO CLC provides amazing PR for AMD's card in reviews, gives one part of the market the world's best reference designed cooler and everyone else who doesn't want AIO CLC in their rig after-market open air cooled options. Oh, you might want to look up the word "options" in the dictionary because last time I checked, having GPU cooling options is good, especially AIO CLC that blows 99.9% of GPU air coolers out of the water as proven by 295X2. Don't wait AIO CLC GPU, no problem, MSI Lightning, Asus Matrix, Gigabyte Windforce will be there for you. Last time I checked, you can't even get the best open air cooled cards from NV such as MSI Lightning or EVGA Classified for months after launch anyway. So really once again you made no point at all. Just like GM200 users will need to wait for months to get the best air cooled open air cards mentioned above, so will 390X users. Except the difference is an AIO CLC 390X available on day 1 will smoke 99.9% of all GPU air coolers, meaning there is LESS incentive to wait for superior air cooled GPU cards.

And if someone wants dual or triple cards, AIO CLC allows one to build such a setup from day 1 and not suffer the poor noise levels and temperatures of blowers OR the top card heating up when going with open air cooled cards. Get it... no?!

It's not me who doesn't get it, it's you. Enthusiasts have always embraced options, and in this case this particular option solves temperatures and noise level issues that come with blowers.

In case you forgot, the Titan Black's blower is the world's BEST, but in context was smashed by 20C+ by Gigabyte Windforce 3X Titan Black's cooler, and while doing it, the Gigabyte's Windforce 3X ran quieter too. Guess what, AIO CLC is even better than that! You seem to have a huge problem with superior GPU cooling solutions. I am not taking the bait.....
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/gr...te-geforce-gtx-titan-black-ghz-edition_4.html

Do you need to be reminded again that 980 blower SLI thermal throttled out of the box in HardOCP's review? SO much for those 'amazing' air cooler blower designs.

"We found that with the default settings on GeForce GTX 980 SLI the lowest clock rate it hit while in-game was 1126MHz. That clock speed is actually below the boost clock of 1216MHz for GTX 980. This is the first time we've seen the real-time in-game clock speed clock throttle below the boost clock in SLI in games. It seems GTX 980 SLI is clock throttling in SLI on reference video cards." ~ HardOCP

You can scream and shout all you want how blowers is some status quo but the industry is moving on to more modern and superior solutions whether you like it or not.

Why do you care so much about what other people buy? You really seem to have a problem and can't stand to see others happy with their gtx980
Why do you always attack on people for owning a 980. I have seen his multiple times now, just like when you went blasting on me. I think it is a strange behavior for a person on PC tech forums.

Its fine if the 980 isn't a GPU for you but we don't need you raging attacks on your personal gtx 980 vendetta.

As I have been saying since day 1 of 980's launch, those who skipped the mid-range $550-600 980 will be truly rewarded ....it's just too bad NV got so many people to pay $550+ for a mid-range chip for 2nd gen in a row when all the signs were there that 980 was a stop-gap 'fake' next gen flagship. If I had 980(s) right now I would be getting ready to sell them in a matter of months before losing a ton of resale value. Competition FTW!

What the heck are you rambling about? Give it up already, please.

Did anyone say to you, "I feel bad for anyone who bought the 7970" when a card 30% faster was supposedly launching?
The Titan X is coming 6 months after the gx980 and it is looking like it will only be 33-35% faster than it. You know, about every 6 months to a year....there is always something better coming around the corner. But in this case, the Titan x will cost 2 times or even more than the 980. And this is for a rather modest 35% increase performance, big whopping deal. Overclock the 980 and get within 20% performance of a stock Titan x. And enjoying it for half the price for a half a year before the gm200 was even available.

You seriously don't need to worry about anyone with a 980. They will be enjoying just fine even after the way more expensive Titan x launches. And you know what, the future is even brighter for them down the road there is the option of dropping in another 980 for SLI. This wipes the floor it, totally and completely. And guess what? Probably would end up spending even less money too.

Honestly, I really don't know what your problem is. Too bad? Its too bad that people payed 550 for a 980? Lol

Nearly 6 months down the road and the 980 is still the fastest single card configuration on the market. 6 months down the road, these GPUs are still selling at the same price. What is there to feel bad for? The Titan X isn't gonna change anything. I mean, too bad for what?
Lets talk about some other gpus here, hey why not another GPU that costed 550 bucks. You know, the 7970. Six months after it came out, was it the fastest GPU on the market still? No. Not only that, we also seen its value drop down a large chunk to boot. How can you sit here and preach such things about how bad the 980 situation is? I mean, really how can you twist up and manipulate things to such a degree?

Now you might ramble on about how the 7970 could overclock, or that the ghz edition eventually took back the crown but none of that matters. What matters is the double standard here and the fact that you are so completely unaware of your own?

You have now on so many occasions bashed on the 980 and people who bought it. And now your whole argument (you are so glad you can gloat on) rest on a hypothetical scenario of a GPU that is still months down the road. You have no real data on how the 390x will perform, on top of that you have absolutely no idea of what this card will really cost, just this urgency to go on an attack against the 980 and those who bought it. You know what, hopefully 8-9months down the road, hopefully then AMD can release a card that pushes down the 550$ 980 that would have been on the market for so so long. You know, it wouldn't hurt a single 980 owners feelings if one day, better cards come out, that is how it works, you of all people should know that.

So while your ready to gloat, I think you are firing shots way way too early my friend. There is nothing that has changed the market price of a 980 and there is nothing that you should think is too bad. One day you might get the chance, 9, 10, 12 months down the road.... One day you might be able to say, see I told you that the 980 was such a terrible buy. One day the card might drop in value but that has not happened today. That isn't happening tomorrow or next week even.
But just in case you somehow don't know this, all gpus go down in price eventually. Every last GPU ever built will loose its value. Some faster than others. But you can be sure that the 980 has already held its value longer than the last gpus you bought for yourself. So don't be wasting any time proclaiming "too bad" for the people who bought GTX980s. Cause we are all still doing fine, thank you

 

[The Alias]

Nearly 6 months down the road and the 980 is still the fastest single card configuration on the market. 6 months down the road, these GPUs are still selling at the same price. What is there to feel bad for? The Titan X isn't gonna change anything. I mean, too bad for what?
Lets talk about some other gpus here, hey why not another GPU that costed 550 bucks. You know, the 7970. Six months after it came out, was it the fastest GPU on the market still? No. Not only that, we also seen its value drop down a large chunk to boot. How can you sit here and preach such things about how bad the 980 situation is? I mean, really how can you twist up and manipulate things to such a degree?

Now you might ramble on about how the 7970 could overclock, or that the ghz edition eventually took back the crown but none of that matters. What matters is the double standard here and the fact that you are so completely unaware of your own?

You have now on so many occasions bashed on the 980 and people who bought it. And now your whole argument (you are so glad you can gloat on) rest on a hypothetical scenario of a GPU that is still months down the road. You have no real data on how the 390x will perform, on top of that you have absolutely no idea of what this card will really cost, just this urgency to go on an attack against the 980 and those who bought it. You know what, hopefully 8-9months down the road, hopefully then AMD can release a card that pushes down the 550$ 980 that would have been on the market for so so long. You know, it wouldn't hurt a single 980 owners feelings if one day, better cards come out, that is how it works, you of all people should know that.

So while your ready to gloat, I think you are firing shots way way too early my friend. There is nothing that has changed the market price of a 980 and there is nothing that you should think is too bad. One day you might get the chance, 9, 10, 12 months down the road.... One day you might be able to say, see I told you that the 980 was such a terrible buy. One day the card might drop in value but that has not happened today. That isn't happening tomorrow or next week even.
But just in case you somehow don't know this, all gpus go down in price eventually. Every last GPU ever built will loose its value. Some faster than others. But you can be sure that the 980 has already held its value longer than the last gpus you bought for yourself. So don't be wasting any time proclaiming "too bad" for the people who bought GTX980s. Cause we are all still doing fine, thank you

I feel as if you are just trying to lather yourself in your own little wall of fanboyism and want RS to just leave you alone. Normally I'd understand, but whenever there's something going on with amd you're quick to jump on the beat the amd train so it's no longer fair to want RS to leave you alone, because his points are supremely valid.